Welcome to Ireland’s ugly urban sprawl
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Large industrial centres like Birmingham, Manchester , Liverpool, Bradford, etc, etc?
I would not live there if you paid me!No maybe, by our early 21 century aesthetic standards, and cultural biases. But any of the cities mentioned above, have played a huge part in the formation of the world we now live in. Just as Florence, Venice and Rome played in the 1500s. All of the technological gadgetry, computers, internets, practically as much as you can think of had origins in the heartland of the industrial revolution. Maybe architectural enthuasiasts aren’t so turned on by that, but many engineers and scientists, historians, thinkers and philosophers would be. If you are looking for short sighted, I think you can look at Ireland. I heard the architect responsible for O’ Connell St. re-development express his excitment in a talk a while back, that Dublin had just surpassed London city’s attempts to re-develop Tranfalgar Square. It is like, I am listened to his moment of pathetic little triumphalism, while in my mind thinking, the British built O’Connell St., and hundreds like it all over the world. All we did really, was to put down a pleasant looking patio… and after the abuse O’Connell Street received over the past few decades, the least it really deserved was a decent make over.
But in relation to blaming politians about lack of spatial planning abilities – it just isn’t good enough. I often sat in a design studio in Architectural School, wondering where I would begin to design my Olympic Swimming Pool project, or how I was going to design my Docklands master plan project, or whatever. How did I feel having spent years of all kinds of artistic and spatial/drawing training under my belt? To be honest with you – I was stone cold – I was frozen by even the contemplation of making anything of that size. So how is the average politian, who understands opinion polls, surveys and publicity campaigns suddenly expected to ‘have all the goods’ required to understand complex spatial problems like building roads? I mean, when you listen and watch politians on TV, trying to grapple with spatial tasks like the Red Cow roundabout and such,… and bearing in mind, these guys could not draw a box on paper, nevermind visualise anything more complex than that…. it really makes you wonder what they are doing involved in these projects at all – but still they are, and in much too close a way I believe.
As Architects, the ones with the real heavy duty minds and capabilities to deal with these spatial problems, are doing bar interiors, house extensions and the like – harmless stuff. It reminds me of Navy Germany, when the politians would decide how many bombers would be made, and actually approve the designs. Despite having no idea about aeronautics. Or how politians would be given the latest Panzer Tiger blueprints to look over, and design what would become the latest grade, military hardware for the front line offensives – despite never having fought in a battle some of them. I just want to highlight the shere ridiculous practice of trying to blame some guy in a pin-stripe suit, who goes to Dail Eireann each day and talks all day – for having lack of perception when it comes to problems which demand all kinds of talents – a million and one miles away from those of any polititian. We shouldn’t blame politians – what are our design professionals doing? While being very content to monopolise all of the brownie points that come from being a design professional – they still don’t want to be a part of the overall attempt to modernise and build the country.
Our design vocations have been restricted far too much, to doing polite, harmless and financially safe small stuff – while people who have no clue what they are doing whatsoever – are flying around in helicopters, and deciding the future of the country in 3 and 4 dimensions. You have to understand Britain and the cities mentioned above, in the whole context of the British Empire and it’s history. The industrial and port cities mentioned about, were converted into large scale industrial power houses, to feed the expansion of the British Empire all over the world. Nowadays the British are in the mood for re-developing those same cities as living environments anew – and they present a massive opportunity for designers in the future. As do similar urban centres throughout industrial Europe. But, we hear in Ireland have to get over our current petty triumphalism phase, and realise that we are entirely fresh and new to this whole building and urban planning racket – and just start right from the basics.
And if you really wish to get back to the very basics of the problems – just look at the kinds of people trying to build the country nowadays. Then compare this, to our design colleges and their lack of ability to even pay staff to tutor and guide the coming generations of young designers, who someday might work us out of this fiasco. Maybe if the country spared itself the odd road project here and there, and spent less money on helicopter rides for guff-faws to ride around in the sky – then there might be just a little money to throw at educating a young army of spatially minded technicians and designers. But there is just too much denial going on – in the design professions – if you aren’t an award winning young architect for doing cool house extensions – then you are nothing, period. This often happens, when you have a crisis situation – rather than facing up squarely to the task and attacking it – you often try to pretend, it isn’t even there.
Brian O’ Hanlon.
I know it is a very hard egg for an oppressed country to swallow, to admit that a conquering nation, built most of our infrastructure and left very little of that expertise lying around, for when we need it nowadays – but that is much closer to the truth – than trying to imagine, that we have some submerged Celtic ‘spirally’ River-Lord-of-the-Dance, kind of magic with spatial problem solving. As if, we can just conjure up this magic, or pull it out of our arse, after 700 hundred years, making potato ridges. To attempt to brush right over that historical legacy, is simply the worse form of hypocracy – and you tend to encounter it all the time – in our design professions. So to try and push the blame off on a politian, for a lack of any tradition we have in building things – is just another saddenly reflection on our whole culture today. What is more – it is going to be extremely damaging to the young Irish people growing up now – who might help us out in this situation.
Brian O’ Hanlon.
Dude I was giving the facts. O’Connell street was built by Dublin Corporation and taxed from Dublin corporation’s revenue. It is not like Trinity College which was Elizabeth’s idea and financed from London, initially. These corporation members may have considered themselve loyal subjects of Empire but were born here, and Irish.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide_Streets_Commission
As if, we can just conjure up this magic, or pull it out of our arse, after 700 hundred years, making potato ridges
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Sleveen cant. A similar statement about an African nation would be flagged as racist.
I would argue that it is such forelock tugging ideologies that holds the coiuntry back – the attitude that we should leave the country as the “British” left it to us, for why would a Paddy be building stuff. The general opposition to taller buildings is part of that, for instance.
Well just take a small, poor, African nation as a good example – one that recently recovered from a Famine perhaps – what if one such small, poor African nation, suddenly had everything it needed – to just build itselves a brand new country?
Just suppose a consortium of billionaires and foreign banks, in the morning, decided to give a small, poor African nation a huge lump of investment – what do you think would happen?
I dunno, maybe, these rich Westerns thought it would be a funny experiment to try out – having gotten drunk in the bar last night.
Well, you can almost imagine it, if you try hard enough.
Some of those African leaders, or chieftains, and the usual few movers n’ shakers in the tribes, would fly around in brand new helicopters mapping out the future.
Then they would fly in loads of designers and planners from Europe or someplace civilised and well-to-do, to come and ‘draw it all up’.
I know, it sounds like a bad recall from a 1960s James Bond movie.
‘Goldfinger’, or ‘Moonraker’, or some similar abomination.
Of course, not a single cent would be spent, on the young Africans and trying to train them up as sufficiently skillful Architects and designers.
Does this sound like the Irish situation – because it really does to me.
Well, maybe not.
But I find it useful just to examine this idea – try to see things from that vantage point perhaps.
I mean, it contrasts with the sorts of viewpoints already presented here on this thread.
I do understand your argument for the ‘existing’ design tradition we have here in Ireland, and I really do respect that.
But, I also think it has strained a bit too much, for what it was, under the current pressure – I feel we could have anticipated that pressure – and acted to deal with it.
It is just too easy now to take the ‘Frank McDonald’ route out, and blame it all on politians without any spatial perception, background or even the most basic training – like these hypothetical tribal leaders riding around in new helicopters.
Brian O’ Hanlon.
Garethase, you are either being ironic, provocative, self deprecating, self-hating, fundamentalist, or a combination of all
of the above.
We live in an imperfect world with much that is good some that is bad. This is life. The contribution we make to our society
can only be measured in our deeds (not our words) but by our words we can often bludgen those who seek to do good, quietly and without bluster. Fundamentalists silence people into submission.
Let us do what is possible, leaving to future generations what is to be done. It is ever thus, for all of humanity.jimq, I have lived in Amsterdam and Brussels and they are also conurbations but if one visits these cities for a weekend or so
then one cannot see beyond the geography of their ‘city centre and touristic’ areas. Major cities are economic powerhouses
driving economic activity. They have sprawl, often of a depressing drabness and uniformity.@DublinLimerick wrote:
Garethase, you are either being ironic, provocative, self deprecating, self-hating, fundamentalist, or a combination of all
of the above.
We live in an imperfect world with much that is good some that is bad. This is life. The contribution we make to our society
can only be measured in our deeds (not our words) but by our words we can often bludgen those who seek to do good, quietly and without bluster. Fundamentalists silence people into submission.
Let us do what is possible, leaving to future generations what is to be done. It is ever thus, for all of humanity.DL,
Could you not debate or demolish his points as opposed to his level of belief?
Re the articles posted I am encouraged that I had the ability to post two new articles in one day from sources as disperate as David McWilliams (Pure Ken Drinking taxpayer who is pissed off with the Metzogiorno state) and Cori (who contend it isn’t southern enough) to both agree that very valid economic arguments exist against me fein planning.
Is it not down to a governments level of enlightenment on issues of the built environment. You don’t have to have a historical legacy of spatial planning to know that allowing urban sprawl to continue is wrong. It’s lack of vision, spatial awareness and imagination on the governments part to see the alternatives to create healthy vibrant communities. As much as i want to, i have no architectural training but i can see what i don’t like in our current development and i can imagine exciting alternatives, just as someone has a knack for cooking or woodwork some may have a better grasp on visualising and creating living environments. It doesn’t flow in the blood of a nation, maybe it’s just facilitated better in some nations by governments who are made more aware of the environments they are creating.
Or possibly by governments that know that profesional bodies such as the IPI and RIAI should be listentened to over the incessent whining of the IRDA and edgy backbench TD’s
@garethace wrote:
The British built O’Connell Street.
I find this view very untrue, as the great architectural gems of Ireland eg. the Custom House, City Hall, Castletown House, were built not by the British but by the Anglo-Irish. Grattan’s Parliment was composed of Irish men, although they gave their legance to the British Monarch who was also King/Queen of Ireland, they were the patrons of our architectural legacy.
Garethace’s statement smacks of the Kevin Boland ethos of, lets assert our indopendance by knocking down Hume St. or blowing up Nelson’s Pillar. Although I know garethace is not taking that view personally, the very fact that it is written shows how unthankfull and unacknowledgeing Irish nationlists are towards the Anglo-Irish for giving us such fine architecrture.
So always remember, the great eighteenth century architecture of Ireland is not British, but Anglo-Irish.
Two guys are running away from a bear, but you don’t need to run faster than the bear, you just need to run faster than the other guy.
This is basically how we run our spatial design courses here in Ireland. Look people, back in 1994, when I was a young student doing a course in architectural design in this country,… for the four months between September and Xmas, I had no guidance in my efforts to do a couple of projects,… why was this? Well basically because, one of my tutors was too busy building the competitions they had just won, and my other appointed tutor had just began a very popular TV programme on RTE about houses and architecture. When my xmas assessment came around, I presented the work I had managed to too, without any form of guidance from my course, and was bluntly accused of being lazy and not trying hard enough. In other words, it was all put on my lap – that I was in effect responsible for my own lack of guidance in a degree course. Of course, when a young man of c. 19/20 is told that by a person in authority – they tend to just take it on the chin, and think, well this person is older and wiser than I am. What you don’t see at 19 or 20 is how you are being ‘measured’ on the scale that the design course sets for itself – not on the scale that would relate to the specific individual’s progress. The amount of progress the individual has made over a set length of time – related to where they are coming from, and potentially where they could go some day. It is very possible, for two students to make exactly the same progress in a design course, to do precisely the same amount of work and effort, but because one may have started off much better than the other, the guy who started off worse, is penalised because of not meeting some bullshit standards.
It is just as important for a design course to produce students, with ‘Grade D’ as it is to produce those with grade ‘A’s. Who knows, maybe the ‘D’ guy worked twice as hard for it, and may therefore go much further than anyone ever thought. Many years down the road, I can now see how wrong my acceptance of my conditions were. After xmas, the only excuse ventured by the faculty, was that both of those tutors, had decided to take extended leave from teaching in the course, at which stage of course, my game was up for that year,… and for ever afterwards, I was branded in that institution a bit of a waster, a goofer and of no merit or ability design or spatially wise. Indeed, that is how I began to view myself – after all, the ‘experts’ had just come to that conclusion. This was really the conclusion come to by several trained professionals, not by myself – who was I to argue with them? As I said, at 19/20 you tend to take these things at face value, rather than question the authority. When I talk about a ‘lack’ of a well established and healthy spatial design tradition, this is mainly what I getting at – a lack of ability to teach aswell as to practice. A kind of ‘contempt’ for the youth and the potential contained within that youthful talent – as if it posed some sort of ‘threat’ to the establishment or something. Well, maybe it does, but that is precisely what one must do, keep re-building, re-training, changing what went before when something better comes along. Our spatial design professionals, as basic human beings, lack ability to see something that is grossly under-valued at the moment – the youth. To invest the time and effort into that project, and watch your investment grow into something over the years. Something that will persist and survive long after all of the roads are built. It seems their best solution is to import talent en masse from abroad, if and when you need it – than to grow your own naturally. It is the educational equivalent, to getting Chinesse Take-Out instead of making your own dinner.
This is what I mean, the country is choc-full of half-baked (or even raw, un-cooked) talents in design of space – that is our failure as a country – as educators. That is the strength of the British and Anglo-Irish tradition – the ability to see a something worth investing time and effort into – and later on, seeing the rewards of your investment. We tend to give up way too easy in Ireland, throw in the towel before we have even got as far as the ring. The fact is, that in an area like spatial design – which is already weighed in favour of those of whom have access to mature people in that field,… well, I will just let you use your own imaginations in that sense,… to what it means to be hung out to dry,… without tutors, while you watch others speed past. That is why I keep on refering to the teaching of basic fundamentals to do with design and space in our courses. Because given how un-level the playing pitch already is, the young people who really could make a difference, need those fundamentals badly,… but are not provided with them,… just a system that spits you out, like a discarded bit of McDonald’s packaging or similar. In other words, the real wealth of this country, not the roads, not the helicopters, the peach jobs or the money – the young talent that has the ability to make everyones’ living conditions much better,… is now being flushed down the toilet. Money just serves to raise the conditions of a very few people,… and to provide a society which is even more out of balance, than the one we already live in. That is basically all that any politian needs to know or should ever know about spatial design, and that is the simple lesson that needs to be driven home. I don’t accept the ‘standards’ that the Irish spatial planning and design tradition sets itself – it sets the bar too low for what this country could achieve – and it just doesn’t serve the community as a whole as we progress into our future. I am referring precisely to stories like my own as represented above, and stories of many more young individuals like me. If we just can stay focussed on this issue, for the next few years, instead of being side-tracked and going down all kinds of cul-de-sacs, then the future is very bright. On the other hand, if we just do our usual half-arsed attempt, then expect the worse.
Brian O’ Hanlon.
@RTE Interactive wrote:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0810/tourism.html
Tourist boards restructuring announced
10 August 2005 13:04
A radical restructuring of tourism promotion in Ireland is to be undertaken in an effort to tackle falling numbers of visitors outside Dublin.The marketing and promotion of tourism destinations outside Dublin is to be centrally integrated, while cutbacks are expected in up to 68 of the country’s tourist offices.
However, a spokesman for the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, John O’Donoghue, stressed that no job cuts were likely and said the regional tourist authorities supported the plans.
The move comes against a background of falling visitor numbers outside Dublin. The number of tourists travelling to the regions was down 14% between 1999 and 2003.
Under the new plan recommended by consultants PriceWaterhouseCoopers, the marketing activities of regional tourist authorities, with the exception of Dublin, will be overseen in future by Failte Ireland.
Up to 68 of the country’s tourist offices could face cutbacks or downsizing.
Dublin Tourism, which will continue to operate independently, has welcomed the implementation of the report.
A spokesman for the Irish Tourism Industry Confederation said that Ireland needed to respond to changes in visitor profiles and the challenges presented by budget airlines.
While Dublin has performed well, he added, it cannot afford to rest on its laurels.
I was talking to an angler in the UK last week who hasn’t been here since 2002; the reason he said was that there is nothing to catch any more.
@An un-named development plan wrote:
The (Subject) area is characterised by monotonous residential development created by illegible, poorly connected and convoluted layouts where the car is dominant, the houses add little to the surrounding environment and the standard design solutions are in the ascendancy. The housing areas are usually segregated from schools, shops,community facilities and are usually only accessed by private car. There has been limited commercial development over the life of the existing (Subject) Development Plan but it is expected that in the coming years, this will follow on from the scale of residential development. The urban centres at present are formless, uninteresting and badly arranged places from an urban design perspective. There is no dramatic sense of arrival at any of the urban centres and the urban centres of the northern LAP seem to merge into each other.
I couldn’t have described much of the hinterland better myself : 😀
good article. however what annoyed me was the inaccuracy of his info so early on. The danes didn’t invade Irteland. the vikings were mostly Norwegian. Ask any Dane…
As Garrethace loves to say Null
@Irish Examiner wrote:
Read between lines on land prices
LIES, damn lies and statistics – this week’s agricultural land sale figures for the first quarter of 2005 might give credence to that old saying. And the low per acre figure given nationally might well have more to do with loading of value onto residences, rather than land in an attempt to avoid the onerous stamp duty rate of 9%. The tight parameters, which would exclude land sales over a €14,000, is also a main reason for the overall low figure, and the exclusion of younger, qualified farmers from the stamp duty levy may also be part of the reason for the low average figure of €6,568 per acre. While the average price per acre was up on the first quarter of 2004, prices were down 11% in comparison to 2004, say the CSO.
The average per acre figure was derived from a total of 668 transactions over the year. The number of excluded transactions was 151, and these covered land sales under €500 per hectare or over €35,000 per hectare. The lower exclusion figure works out at €202 per acre and is deemed to be a non-market value representing sales to family and friends. The higher figure works out at just over €14,164 per acre which, many auctioneering practitioners will contend, is the average price paid for land in the southern half of the country. The average price given by the CSO might hold water when you take a mean between poor land in say, Roscommon, and the best of Golden Vale pasture, but when you look at the breakdown, there is still a large anomaly between the listed figures and those given as sale prices every day of the week.
Last year’s average for the South-West region, given as €6,825 per acre, is way below the average that most auctioneering practitioners quote as their rule-of-thumb average. And sales in a large number of cases have been consistently higher than the exclusion level, which would lead one to assume that they don’t register in the figures presented to the CEO. However, they haven’t ruled out raising that threshold in future releases, says Kevin Keady of the Agriculture section of the CSO, adding that their reluctance to do so was because of the damage to comparability with previous years statistics. And there are may be other factors at work behind this low mean figure, in particular the land valuation process.
Of the 151 sales excluded for the overall sales figure in 2004, that proportion was less than 20% of the total sales figures, which would not alter the final per acre figure significantly, say the CSO. The CSO figures are extrapolated from the Particulars Delivered (PD) form sent by solicitors to the Revenue Commissioners as part of the assessment of stamp duty. This in turn is sent to the Valuation Office, who in turn send the computed figures to the CSO. This figure only includes public sales and doesn’t cover inter-family transfer, which means that overall the number of transactions is just 0.1% of the overall land held in the country.
To be fair, the CSO are the first to say their results are based on voluntary processing of the Particulars Delivered form used by solicitors in a transaction, and that private sales slip through their net. But it still doesn’t get away from the fact that real life valuations for land have increased substantially, especially post-CAP as the agricultural market adjusts, and the exclusion figures should reflect that inflation. Likewise, the actual price paid for development land is now so far away from the baseline figure of €14,164 that it’s irrelevant, except in the published figures of farm sales. Any future assessment of farming in Ireland will be to some extent based on this tabulations, so their accuracy is of paramount importance.
Rose Martin © Irish Examiner
Any thoughts?
The French economist and journalist, Jean-Baptiste Say, who lived at the time of the French Revolution, invented the term ‘entrepreneur’ to describe someone who unlocks capital tied up in land and redirects it to ‘change the future’. He was one of the first economists to introduce the idea of change and uncertainty as something normal and even positive. Whereas Adam Smith, David Ricardo and others wanted to improve the efficiency of existing manufacturing processes by identifying the point at which demand, supply and price were in stable equilibrium, Say wanted to start new ventures. He was interested in the moments of disequilibrium and risk. The Austrian economist, Joseph Schumpeter, writing in the first half of the twentieth century, said the entrepreneur exploits innnovation to create a monopoly (or tries to), which is then challenged by another entrepreneur, who creates a new monopoly, and so on. In the words of economist Andrew Shonfield, who wrote Modern Capitalism, Schumpeter ‘believed the nature of traditional capitalism to be violent, to move forward by fits and starts, and that the reason for its uneven progress lies in the discontinuous process of innovation’. Compared with Adam Smith’s search for the more efficient use of existing resources, Say wanted to see how an investment in one resource could be taken and reused to exploit a completely different resource. It was an early version of what economists describe as ‘unlocking value’.
From ‘The Creative Economy’, by John Howkins.
If you think of Ireland in recent years, ‘change as something normal and even positive’, reminds me of Fianna Fail policies. But Fianna Fail are now afraid the pandora’s box they have opened, is spiralling out of their control. They assumed they could manage this impulse to unlock the capital contained in land. The innovation being exercised nowadays, is how to re-use the monopoly of land, for something else. What we are witnessing here in Ireland nowadays is the ‘violent capitalism’ of Joseph Schumpeter. Nowadays, Fianna Fail are deeply worried. They want to ‘retro-fit’ their policies with some elements that come from the ‘Left Wing’ side of the debate. Because all of the good ideas about sustainability and development, about stability of price, supply and demand, seem to exist on the left side.
Unlocking the value that is tied up in land ownership, that is what is going on, that is all. The Fianna Fail administration has organised itself firmly around that task – that is the main reason for its overwhelming popularity. Where other parties talk about ‘more efficient use of existing resources’ – Fianna Fail is more interesting in ‘change as something normal and even positive’. The results are visible these days, in every city, road and town in the country – whether it be once-off rural housing, or post industrial land banks. The only mystery to me, is how this process can continue without the input of anyone with spatial design capabilities – and how it exposes the very inefficient monopoly that is spatial and environmental design here in Ireland. The only justification that Fianna Fail could claim for unlocking the value in land, would be to put it straight back into the knowledge economy.
Brian O’ Hanlon.
The Creative Economy and the Architecture:
https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=4237
Piece about Schumpeter’s ‘Creative Destruction’ here:
http://transcriptions.english.ucsb.edu/archive/courses/liu/english25/materials/schumpeter.html
Jean-Baptiste Say
http://www.mises.org/content/jean-baptiste.asp
Adam Smith
http://www.blupete.com/Literature/Biographies/Philosophy/Smith.htm#
David Ricardo
@garethace wrote:
CWU votes for strike action at An Post
21 October 2005 15:16
The Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Noel Dempsey, has said that strike action at An Post could mean an earlier than intended end to its monopoly on the distribution of letters.Earlier this afternoon it emerged that the Communications Workers Union has voted overwhelmingly to take industrial action.
As yet, the union has not specified what form the industrial action will take so it is impossible to assess the potential level of disruption.
Speaking earlier on RTÉ Radio’s News At One, Mr Dempsey said the CWU’s decision is a disappointing one and very bad news to the company’s customers.
90% of CWU members those polled voted in favour of industrial action. The turn out was also 90%.
The union will serve two weeks’ notice of industrial action later today.
The row arises from both An Post’s plea of inability to pay national wage increases because of its dire financial situation and the company’s bid in separate negotiations to secure major work practice and cost cutting reforms in its collection and delivery service.
Unions had argued that the two issues were unrelated.
However, after a major company review by a team of experts, the Labour Court recommended that the pay and change issues be linked, with full payment of national wage rises for all staff conditional on significant cost cutting concessions by postal workers.
An Post accepted the recommendation, but the CWU argued that the changes demanded placed an excessive burden on its members.
Smaller unions apply for LC hearing
Meanwhile, RTÉ News has learned that two smaller unions at An Post will formally apply to the Labour Court for an early hearing to secure payment of overdue National Wage increases.
In a significant development, leaders of the CPSU, which represents 400 lower grade administrative staff, and the AHCPS, which represents 200 senior managers, attended an informal meeting at the Labour Court this morning.
The unions argue that despite agreeing work practice reforms in their sectors up to two years ago, they are being refused overdue Sustaining Progress increases until postal workers deliver significant cost cutting reforms in the collection and delivery service.
It is understood that the two unions feel their members at An Post are effectively being held to ransom by the Communications Workers Union’s rejection of a Labour Court recommendation on change in the collection and delivery service.
Well if they didn’t have to deliver to such an ever more dispersed customer base they wouldn’t be losing so much money and would be able to honour national wage agreements and wouldn’t suffer strikes.
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