Underused Parks
- This topic has 38 replies, 16 voices, and was last updated 22 years, 6 months ago by
.
- Posts
Quote Shdow “As a “sacred” space it is being poorly considered. Fairs, theatre and other events over this ground is I believe problematic.”
Shadow I’m a little confused but agree with the point that respect for site history particularly religious history is a fundamental pre-requisite.
My understanding was that at least a very large proportion of thw Wolfe Tone Park was a DCC park that was surrounded by railings. I never entered this space as I found it most uninviting so I was unaware as to the existence of any graveyard or headstones.
Secondly a lot of the events staged in the space were done so because Smithfield wasn’t sufficiently finished at that time. I suspect that the french market was sponsored by AXA who occupy the offices directly opposite and who are headquartered in Paris.
If an area beside the church was preserved and if drama events were staged at the FAS end of the park would you be satisfied with the Park?
Regarding the Church itself, it can’t there waiting for another religious tenant it needs to earn its corn. But I agree that a typical Temple Bar superpub should be prevented. However I think it would make an excellent live music venue something like the Gaiety perhaps?
I wonder whether the railings to Parnell Sq are actualy original late Georgian – I have a feeling that the pattern of ‘post’ used is correct for that period and vaguely recall an early 19th Cent print showing them (along with the Sedan Chair points removed in the late 40’s).
That said I also remember reading that when originally laid out the square was used as a vast carriage park and was extraordinarily mucky.
Mind you I hate the idea of building up the sides of the square – much abused as it is!!. It is the only square in the city which has a building on it (the Rotunda) designed to face onto the square as well as onto the street.
And the relationship with the Northern (Charlmont) terrace would be destroyed.
It would seem to me to be a far better idea to try to return the square to a more ornamental representation of its original 18th century appearance when it was a pleasure garden – it would’nt be impossible although it would require taking back the internal car park and yard areas from the rotunda.
Yes the more I think about it the idea of building on it really stinks – I think it and the old Tholsel would then be the only Malton views to have been lost to the City.
Sorry Dick -Thumbs Down!!, that idea really sucks – try employing some local architects to advise you on this stuff – Much as I like Richard McCormac’s work and can tolerate MBM (in Spain) – I don’t think much of their grasp of context in a Dublin sense.
Originally posted by James
.It would seem to me to be a far better idea to try to return the square to a more ornamental representation of its original 18th century appearance when it was a pleasure garden – it would’nt be impossible although it would require taking back the internal car park and yard areas from the rotunda.
That would make a lot of sense, it is amazing that no-one thought about it as a millenium project. I also doubt that it would be very costly. 🙂
I have always thought that the Phoenix Park, although used quite a lot, could be so much better.
I always seem to think of how well Central Park NY is used (all year round).
Have we grown so used to having such a large park so close to the city centre that we have forgotten that it is a park and simply treat it as a carpark and a short-cut home?
Harry, I think that it would be difficult to compare Central Park in NY with our Phoenix Park because NY is obviously so much more built up around the area in which the park is situated. Therefore there is a natural usage of the park by those people who either work or live in the area as well as those people who might have made the effort to travel to it. It is hard to know how to make something like the Phoenix Park ‘better’. I suppose improving access from the city centre would help but it is probably not a public transport priority at the moment.
Thanks
Phil
I think they could start by getting the rentboys and al fresco sex merchants out after hours. Personally, I would love to see the area around the People’s Park floodlit and left open after 8pm for joggers or cyclists.
I also think the plans to make a footbridge from the new Heuston Gate development south of the river are fantastic.
Having said that, the Park does get exceptional use. In Summer, it’s mobbed with people running, playing football, until nightfall. And the rest of the year, it’s absolutely packed at weekends. Also, Dublin Zoo is the most visited attraction in Ireland.Good points Kefu. Do you (or anyone else for that matter) know what the state of play is with the planned foot bridge?
Thanks
Phil
“My understanding was that at least a very large proportion of the Wolfe Tone Park was a DCC park that was surrounded by railings. I never entered this space as I found it most uninviting so I was unaware as to the existence of any graveyard or headstones.” The space is/was a graveyard. None of the bodies have been removed. The “park” was railed off and the tombstones were moved to the edges and along the “FAS” wall. This is not an issue regarding whether the religious use of the church can pay its way. It is rather what is an appropriate use. A community resource, exhibition space or other public activity may have been more appropriate than a bar. And similarly a public space use that respects the dead might be more use. On a practical level the “square” does not appear to deal with uses such as theatre and French foods as can be seen by the lack of robustness of the green “beach” and the fixity of the benches determining the zones of occupation.
I love the Phoenix Park. Lived on Parkgate Street for a year and we used the park all the time. It was a great spot for a Sunday morning walk, nice and early when the mist was lifting. The better half used to go for a run a lot of mornings in it too. Better use could indeed be made of it, to allow parts of it to be used after dark by people other than TDs.
Originally posted by shadow
[B This is not an issue regarding whether the religious use of the church can pay its way. It is rather what is an appropriate use. A community resource, exhibition space or other public activity may have been more appropriate than a bar. [/B]I can’t disagree with you.
I am also surprised that so little respect was paid to the departed, I expected better from what was in every other regard a flagship project.
Originally posted by Paul Clerkin
I love the Phoenix Park. Lived on Parkgate Street for a year and we used the park all the time. It was a great spot for a Sunday morning walk, nice and early when the mist was lifting. The better half used to go for a run a lot of mornings in it too. Better use could indeed be made of it, to allow parts of it to be used after dark by people other than TDs.Urbanism
Three names Paul, O’Deveaney, Drumalee and Dunard. Any one of which would have been ‘bad’ for any area, but together formed a kind of ‘ring of terror’ around that part of Dublin city. Projects which had been a dumping ground for problems for generations now. They cleared out the slums in Dublin’s city centre and created the “Park end of the North Circular Road” as a result.
Using the Manor Street/Stoney Batter guise to pretend that things were nice and ‘community’ oriented. The people who came from the three above ‘projects’ were never accepted into the local existing community around there. Oxmantown and Arbour Hill were existing communities who were horrified by the problems those three ‘projects’ created.
The other problem, is things like the Phoenix park, which create massive walls inside of which the chaos can just continue.
Other great massive unresolved areas like Grange Gorman, Broadstone, Kings Inns, Guinesses across the River, Heuston Station, Phoenix Park, River Liffey, Chapelizod by pass, numerous Defense forces institutions, urban decay like Smithfield, Blackhall place.
The area there is caught between far too many ‘unresolved’ areas of poorly used real estate in my humble opinion. The whole place never stood a chance, compared to other parts of the city. Given its central location and value as an area to put larger denser populations of mixed classes, it should never have been allowed to slip so far down the tubes.
The Phoenix Park is nice ‘pasing through’, nice to know it is there. But really nobody ever stays around that part of town long enough to realise it has real problems.
I am comparing to areas like the Miltown Road in south side of Dublin, which is much less central and convenient, yet has managed to attract all kinds of nice high density residential development down through the past few years. The recent development around the old convent there being a very good example.
Similarly around places like Herbert Park, Bushy Park and Dartry. But the area you are refering to Paul, has only served two real purposes down through the years:
1) Defense Forces.
2) Dumping ground for ‘problems’.
Sorry, but the whole idea of respect for the long dead is ludicrous. They’re now just a collection of carbon atoms and fertilizer.
Originally posted by Paul Clerkin
Sorry, but the whole idea of respect for the long dead is ludicrous. They’re now just a collection of carbon atoms and fertilizer.That is very true. But from what Shadow was saying the headstones were positioned badly. Given the fuss over the ‘immoral uses clause’ binding the Church possibly the sellling congregation got their priorities wrong?
Originally posted by garethace
O’Deveaney Gardens has been a dumping ground for problems for generations now. They cleared out the slums in Dublin’s city centre and created the “Park end of the North Circular Road” as a result.Using the Manor Street/Stoney Batter guise to pretend that things were nice and ‘community’ oriented. The people who came from the three above ‘projects’ were never accepted into the local existing community around there.
The Phoenix Park is nice ‘pasing through’, nice to know it is there. But really nobody ever stays around that part of town long enough to realise it has real problems.After clearing the monto they had to put the ‘Sinners’ somewhere. The largely artisan population of Arbour Hill was probably seen as a soft touch as better educated populations such as Rathmines and Donnybrook would have ensured it wasn’t in their Backyard.
Originally posted by garethace
I am comparing to areas like the Miltown Road in south side of Dublin, which is much less central and convenient, yet has managed to attract all kinds of nice high density residential development down through the past few years. The recent development around the old convent there being a very good example.Similarly around places like Herbert Park, Bushy Park and Dartry. But the area you are refering to Paul, has only served two real purposes down through the years:
1) Defense Forces.
2) Dumping ground for ‘problems’.
Two rules anywhere in World
1. Avoid military districts
2. Analyse the level of graffiti and street crawlers.You wouldn’t raise kids in that end of the NCR or around parkgate st.
You wouldn’t raise kids in that end of the NCR or around parkgate st.
Scary place alright.
The kids in Parkgate St. area, have evolved though and adapted themselves to become like little street monsters. They are really a lot like those little creatures in Jurassic Park – the ones that look cute and tiny, and then follow you and hunt you down in flocks. Especially after they got roller blades, and went around in huge gangs it felt very threatening to walk home at night.
Be a while before this kind of thing finds it way beyond Milltown Road, here in Dublin. 🙂
http://www.cgarchitect.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000518
Firstly I’d like to see the image with better light possibly evening sun vs midnight.
You’d be surprised with developers development plans lately. I think that developers are factoring in much denser designs than the traditional duplex unit.
Higher densities are required on any land zoned residential within 5kms of the Green, once there are no adverse effects on important streetscapes.
What that whole NCR, Phoenix Park, Arbour Hill, Parkgate Street really would need though, is for some kind of spatial strategy, like the one McCullough Mulvin did for North inner city, or Group 91 did for Temple Bar area.
Parklandschaft Zentrum Zurich Nord
is a project over at http://urban.cccb.org/
which I think would be extremely appropriate,
I like the way they have tied in nature, into the spaces created too, in a formalised way – some way to deal with the edge with Phoenix park other than a wall.
if it could tie up with Smithfield, Blackhall place etc, etc. Of course, we also have a nice Calatrava bridge down there too, lets not forget! 🙂
I think the Phoenix Park is fine and to mess around with its Boundary wall would be nit picking. But closer to the centre of the city walled parks are not as advantageous.
I passed the locked up park at Christchurch again this morning which has had its spring pruning, it looks well.
But then again so do most private gardens
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
