Underused Parks

I have mixed feelings about the Garden of Rememberance, it is clear alot more could be done with that site, on the other hand, the Garden itself is so typical of its time and of that old fashioned attitude to the national struggle, it would be a pity to lose it. What would be best, I think, would be to try and preserve elements of the memorial, the sculpting, the cross shaped reflecting pool, within an enlarged, redesigned and more open park.

About time someone started this thread, it should be a major issue from now on in Dublin and Ireland as a whole to highlight the whole issue of what open spaces do exist within the city, town or village and decide which ones are worth keeping, partly building on, or just abandoning altogether in favour of use as building land.

Somewhere in all of this, compromises I am sure will have to be made and it is up to the architectural community to appreciate this as much as possible. Who knows, maybe some new opportunities to create open spaces might happen in the future and thereby compensate in the longer run, for some of the spaces lost over the years. This is a whole topic I think is very worth while discussing.

A big problem in major towns around this country is the way in which cars all gang into the central square area, or other open public amenity space to use it as a carpark. This might have worked perfectly in the days of horse fairs etc, et – but not for vehicular today.

Then at nightime, when all the cars have disappeared you are left with this huge open space, which doesn’t appear to have any other use associated with it – apart from vandalism generally and junvenille upstarts making it their ‘territory’.

The quality of the grass aka lawn at Wolfe Tone Park is very poor. It is uneven and patchy in places. Despite it being a utility lawn it could be still much better.
The Croppy Acre is park which is lacking despite having a recent makeover.

The lawn at Wolfe Tone is currently offlimits after a reseeding….

I’d agree Wolf Tone Park is a lot better now it’s opened up. When they eventually finish working on St Mary’s it should be even better.

Does any one know what is happening with the Dame Street’s Millennium Garden? Did the proposed plan get planning permission?

Originally posted by Diaspora
Mount Pleasant park in Ranelagh is another although less strategically important park that is also underperforming.

Could it be that people don’t know if these parks are public or private or even private but we’ll turn a blind eye to you being there (like Wilton Park). Not knowing whether or not you will be turfed out keeps people away.

Originally posted by ewanduffy

Could it be that people don’t know if these parks are public or private or even private but we’ll turn a blind eye to you being there (like Wilton Park). Not knowing whether or not you will be turfed out keeps people away.

Sorry to say this, but that sounds exactly like some of the colleges DIT own around the city now, where so few people are rattling around inside these very expensive facilities, that the security guys seem to have gotten paranoid about everyone who walks through the doors now.

I often notice, how Trinity college can just get away with a couple of goons who need to have very little interaction with the general student populus – and Trinity is right in the heart of the city – a quite sizeable campus. Whereas DIT seem to need goons in every little rat-hole they own all over Dublin. I think goons would out number staff in some institutions now! 🙂

I think it is very much part of the Irish culture not to stray onto urban lands unless they are sure that it is public property or a school etc.

An architect I knew built a kindergarten not long ago, and decided to take his all new €900 digital camera with him one day to take pictures. He had to stand back very far to get a good angle of view of the front facade. But then he noticed that he was standing inside in the scrubbery, pointing a camera at a kindergarten and the teacher and pupils were all staring out the window at him.

So he jumped in his car and drove off, without photographing anything. 🙂

But Trinity college is still one of the best places to lose your new bicycle unfortunately and the short walk to the Garda Station in Pearse Street, doesn’t make that experience feel any better either I can tell you. Speaking from personal experience in December 2002.

But I think if DIT was more organised together in one place, it could operate as Trinity does now – as a university and also as a very pleasant public place in which to enjoy open space and people generally just walking and talking. To an overwhelming extent it tends to police itself.

I mean, you cannot divorce public park and public usage – they are not exclusive – one supports the other. I think that the Daniel Libeskind or SOM entries for Carlisle Pier could be very interesting if sited someplace like Belfield or Trinity or a potential DIT campus at GrangeGorman, where you might get the numbers of bodies using the schemes as were described by the CG renderings.

A university is generally an ideal program to combine with ‘open spaces’. This fact of course has been completed ignored in the way in which DIT has been allowed to develop as an institution. Notice in Belfield, the way the football fields almost miggle with the buildings at this stage.

On the subject of Trinity and cops, is it true that the gardai do not go/are not permitted to go into the grounds (at Trinity) or is this just an urban legend. This is what the dude who used to sell ounces on a Saturday morning near the cricket- field back in oh, 1983-4 told
us and you know what, we never saw a cop the whole summer long.

I kind of feel the same as notjim about the Garden of Remembrance. It’s quaint. I wouldn’t like to lose it completely. Granted the Roman cross plan doesn’t represent our inclusive, right-on 21st cen. society! But what harm? The coloured tiles showing groups of Celtic weaponry in the bottom of the pool are amazingly vibrant.

I also like the blank curving wall at the back – but it’s ruined by the knee-high planted border.

The railings around the garden (which bound a large part of Parnell Sq also) are an interesting take on Georgian/Victorian railings (unlike horrible mild steel mock-traditional railings used on suburban houses and rural trophy houses).

The fact that it’s a peaceful oasis at the moment is just a reflection of the hostile traffic island that is Parnell Square, and the fact that the garden doesn’t relate to the Georgian square. But then IT was built AFTER the Rotunda Hosp had encroached into the square with various buildings.

The O’Connell Street Integrated Area Plan has something about an entrance into a redesigned garden opposite the Hugh Lane Gallery, but I don’t know if that’s been superseded by new plans mentioned by Frank McD. in the paper last week for the square as a centre of cultural institutions …

Planners, if you’re reading, take note of notjim’s suggestion for incorporating the best parts of the garden in an enlarged, redesigned park.

Yeah, but remember the park in Parnell Square was the “Pleasure Gardens” of the Rotunda Hospital from the very beginning. There’s a great photo somewhere taken from up in one of the Georgian houses in about 1900 looking at the Pleasure Gardens sweeping down to the rear of the Rotunda, which is a fine facade in itself, with colonnades curving forwards like the front.

There’s a vague objective in the O’C St IAP plan for reclaiming some of that space built on by the hospital in the 20th century.

A couple of points:

Wolfe Tone Square is over a graveyard, bodies still interred. As a “sacred” space it is being poorly considered. Fairs, theatre and other events over this ground is I believe problematic. The secularisation of the spiritual confirmed by the conversion of the church to a super pub will destroy a very important link with the past.
Parnell Square was a pleasure garden, which funded the laying in hospital but was separate. The activities, particularly at night were considered unsavoury. This was “pleasure” of the widest (wildest) possible description. Ironic that it is the site for remembering revolution.

Having a maternity hospital on the doorstep was therefore helpful no doubt!

Its a great shame about the Christchurch park. Whereas its sunken nature adds to the charm of the place, it inevitably repels visitors. A more transparent boundary would help a lot, whilst still allowing it to be secured at night.

The Garden of Rememberance doesn’t need much doing to it, it’s a great ‘period piece’ and would be a shame to lose it or parts of it. A better integration with the rest of the square is largely all that is required, what little of the square is left…

That is a good point you make Shadow. I too find it weird the way the grave stones are just piled up at the end like some token display of respect for the dead.

I wonder whether the railings to Parnell Sq are actualy original late Georgian – I have a feeling that the pattern of ‘post’ used is correct for that period and vaguely recall an early 19th Cent print showing them (along with the Sedan Chair points removed in the late 40’s).

That said I also remember reading that when originally laid out the square was used as a vast carriage park and was extraordinarily mucky.

Mind you I hate the idea of building up the sides of the square – much abused as it is!!. It is the only square in the city which has a building on it (the Rotunda) designed to face onto the square as well as onto the street.

And the relationship with the Northern (Charlmont) terrace would be destroyed.

It would seem to me to be a far better idea to try to return the square to a more ornamental representation of its original 18th century appearance when it was a pleasure garden – it would’nt be impossible although it would require taking back the internal car park and yard areas from the rotunda.

Yes the more I think about it the idea of building on it really stinks – I think it and the old Tholsel would then be the only Malton views to have been lost to the City.

Sorry Dick -Thumbs Down!!, that idea really sucks – try employing some local architects to advise you on this stuff – Much as I like Richard McCormac’s work and can tolerate MBM (in Spain) – I don’t think much of their grasp of context in a Dublin sense.

I have always thought that the Phoenix Park, although used quite a lot, could be so much better.

I always seem to think of how well Central Park NY is used (all year round).

Have we grown so used to having such a large park so close to the city centre that we have forgotten that it is a park and simply treat it as a carpark and a short-cut home?

Harry, I think that it would be difficult to compare Central Park in NY with our Phoenix Park because NY is obviously so much more built up around the area in which the park is situated. Therefore there is a natural usage of the park by those people who either work or live in the area as well as those people who might have made the effort to travel to it. It is hard to know how to make something like the Phoenix Park ‘better’. I suppose improving access from the city centre would help but it is probably not a public transport priority at the moment.

Thanks

Phil

I think they could start by getting the rentboys and al fresco sex merchants out after hours. Personally, I would love to see the area around the People’s Park floodlit and left open after 8pm for joggers or cyclists.
I also think the plans to make a footbridge from the new Heuston Gate development south of the river are fantastic.
Having said that, the Park does get exceptional use. In Summer, it’s mobbed with people running, playing football, until nightfall. And the rest of the year, it’s absolutely packed at weekends. Also, Dublin Zoo is the most visited attraction in Ireland.

Good points Kefu. Do you (or anyone else for that matter) know what the state of play is with the planned foot bridge?

Thanks

Phil

“My understanding was that at least a very large proportion of the Wolfe Tone Park was a DCC park that was surrounded by railings. I never entered this space as I found it most uninviting so I was unaware as to the existence of any graveyard or headstones.” The space is/was a graveyard. None of the bodies have been removed. The “park” was railed off and the tombstones were moved to the edges and along the “FAS” wall. This is not an issue regarding whether the religious use of the church can pay its way. It is rather what is an appropriate use. A community resource, exhibition space or other public activity may have been more appropriate than a bar. And similarly a public space use that respects the dead might be more use. On a practical level the “square” does not appear to deal with uses such as theatre and French foods as can be seen by the lack of robustness of the green “beach” and the fixity of the benches determining the zones of occupation.

I love the Phoenix Park. Lived on Parkgate Street for a year and we used the park all the time. It was a great spot for a Sunday morning walk, nice and early when the mist was lifting. The better half used to go for a run a lot of mornings in it too. Better use could indeed be made of it, to allow parts of it to be used after dark by people other than TDs.

Originally posted by Paul Clerkin
I love the Phoenix Park. Lived on Parkgate Street for a year and we used the park all the time. It was a great spot for a Sunday morning walk, nice and early when the mist was lifting. The better half used to go for a run a lot of mornings in it too. Better use could indeed be made of it, to allow parts of it to be used after dark by people other than TDs.

Urbanism

Three names Paul, O’Deveaney, Drumalee and Dunard. Any one of which would have been ‘bad’ for any area, but together formed a kind of ‘ring of terror’ around that part of Dublin city. Projects which had been a dumping ground for problems for generations now. They cleared out the slums in Dublin’s city centre and created the “Park end of the North Circular Road” as a result.

Using the Manor Street/Stoney Batter guise to pretend that things were nice and ‘community’ oriented. The people who came from the three above ‘projects’ were never accepted into the local existing community around there. Oxmantown and Arbour Hill were existing communities who were horrified by the problems those three ‘projects’ created.

The other problem, is things like the Phoenix park, which create massive walls inside of which the chaos can just continue.

Other great massive unresolved areas like Grange Gorman, Broadstone, Kings Inns, Guinesses across the River, Heuston Station, Phoenix Park, River Liffey, Chapelizod by pass, numerous Defense forces institutions, urban decay like Smithfield, Blackhall place.

The area there is caught between far too many ‘unresolved’ areas of poorly used real estate in my humble opinion. The whole place never stood a chance, compared to other parts of the city. Given its central location and value as an area to put larger denser populations of mixed classes, it should never have been allowed to slip so far down the tubes.

The Phoenix Park is nice ‘pasing through’, nice to know it is there. But really nobody ever stays around that part of town long enough to realise it has real problems.

I am comparing to areas like the Miltown Road in south side of Dublin, which is much less central and convenient, yet has managed to attract all kinds of nice high density residential development down through the past few years. The recent development around the old convent there being a very good example.

Similarly around places like Herbert Park, Bushy Park and Dartry. But the area you are refering to Paul, has only served two real purposes down through the years:

1) Defense Forces.

2) Dumping ground for ‘problems’.

Sorry, but the whole idea of respect for the long dead is ludicrous. They’re now just a collection of carbon atoms and fertilizer.

You wouldn’t raise kids in that end of the NCR or around parkgate st.

Scary place alright.

The kids in Parkgate St. area, have evolved though and adapted themselves to become like little street monsters. They are really a lot like those little creatures in Jurassic Park – the ones that look cute and tiny, and then follow you and hunt you down in flocks. Especially after they got roller blades, and went around in huge gangs it felt very threatening to walk home at night.

Be a while before this kind of thing finds it way beyond Milltown Road, here in Dublin. 🙂

http://www.cgarchitect.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000518

What that whole NCR, Phoenix Park, Arbour Hill, Parkgate Street really would need though, is for some kind of spatial strategy, like the one McCullough Mulvin did for North inner city, or Group 91 did for Temple Bar area.

Parklandschaft Zentrum Zurich Nord

is a project over at http://urban.cccb.org/

which I think would be extremely appropriate,

I like the way they have tied in nature, into the spaces created too, in a formalised way – some way to deal with the edge with Phoenix park other than a wall.

if it could tie up with Smithfield, Blackhall place etc, etc. Of course, we also have a nice Calatrava bridge down there too, lets not forget! 🙂

That little park at Christchurch should be built upon – its a waste