transport21
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oh you are still with us PVC
PVC, can you answer a straight question?
why did you try to back up your argument with a bogus document?
why did you refer to a defunct document that doesn’t apply to MN as designed?
you must have known that document didn’t apply.
did you think nobody would notice that PVC?
interestingly you’ve also ripped the knickers off Frank MacDonald’s campaign in the process.
His case is based on that same document. Which doesn’t refer to MN as designed.
That document is not meant for public perusal. Frankie has been using that as a source for his dreams of Luas down every street in Eire
Doesn’t look too clever now when exposed as irrelevant.
You have lied to be blunt and this document was only the latest. I’m busy today I’ll be back shortly with some of your other bluffs.
The assumption was that it related to Swords as the numbers excluding Swords are just too unrealistic.
Are you saying that a population of 54,127 can deliver 16.4m passenger trips?
Oh I see you are banning non residents of Swords from using the Swords sction.
And for all time no matter what develops there 😀
Swords is projected to have a pop of 100,000 by 2020.
You have failed to answer the question PVC.
Why did you introduce a document that did not refer to MN as designed?
a bit embarassing to admit you were bluffing?
The figures in the Draft Railway Order are calculated based on a Metro Netowrk, i.e. with an interhange with Metro West aswell which is shelved, so the 35M passanger number is the potential passangers on the Metro North setion when ALL of transport21 is implimented, and there are specific references to the Interconnector and Metro West.
Without these the 35M number is not going to be achieved.
This number is also based on a massive 10M increase in passanger numbers at Dublin Airport, which is not likely to happen any more.Considering that Metro West has been shelved and Luas lines delayed the 35M number is not going to be achieved before 2030. And if Metro North is built it will be difficult to extend it (with Metro West) while the 2bn or so loan is being paid back.
It’s also important to point out that the 35M number is not what they expect when it opens ( even with interconnector and Metro west) and this is the long term maximum capacity which is not going to be achieved.
The whole project was justified at the time as a Metro Network, it just doesn’t make sense on it’s own.
that was a bit embarassing there ac1976 getting left like a lemon by PVC?
ac1976, before we dismantle your confections please answer one question.
where is your source for Metro West being shelved?
can you provide that source?
well construction on Metro West was due to start this year, but the Minister has delayed the publication of the Draft Railway order, with no new date, effectively halting the whole project for now.
That sounds like it’s on the shelf to me.Also, the Minister went to the EIB to secure funding for the Metro North and Interconnector projects (no mention of any funding for Metro west)
http://www.fiannafail.ie/news/entry/minister-dempsey-meets-vice-president-of-european-investment-bank/
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0724/1224251231691.htmlSo there are no plans for a Railway Order for now, and no efforts at securing funding.. hmmmmm
It ain’t gonna happen.
There is also a reasonable chance they wont even get funding for Metro North, the position of the Department of Finance speaks for itself:Responding to suggestions that the Department of Finance does not support Metro North, a spokesman for the department said: “We do not have a principled objection to the metro, but we will have to see how much it costs. We have never said that we are against it, but it depends on how much it costs.”
Marmajam please note, the Government do not even know how much this thing will cost, ease up on PVC
I expect the DOF are referring not just to construction costs there and also how much the loan will end up costingWhat we do know, is the rough costs used by the Cabinet at the time the decided on this project as opposed to the Dart spur.
I don’t believe this.
The planning app for metro west is being prepared right now. Check proper sources.
The gov now know EXACTLY what MN will cost. They have the tenders and have short listed 2 consortiums for BAFO.
you are simply making things up.
stay out of it if that’all you’ve got.
If you and PVC keep inventing data I will keep coming back with the correct data.
By what right do you consider you or PVC have the entitlement to make up data to back up your opinion?
any embarassment is the direct consequence of your own silly dishonesty
Both of you represent exactly what is wrong and why we have a country with crap archtecture and 3rd class infrastructure.
Total lack of confidence to build for the real world.
‘ssshhhh don’t try anything decent something terrible might happen’
you have the heart of a mouse.
@marmajam wrote:
I don’t believe this.
The gov now know EXACTLY what MN will cost. They have the tenders and have short listed 2 consortiums for BAFO.
.This is not true, they may know the construction costs, you have to add to that the cost of preparing Railway Order (not yet complete, delayed) the cost of land purchase, legal costs, the cost of the delay due to ABP and most importantly the cost of the finance, as well as any indemnity agreed in the contract.
They have not yet secured funding, and so they dont know how much this will cost!
It could be 2.5BN with interest paid over 15 years or it cud be something different, we simply don’t know how much will need to be paid back and what the payment schedule will be. They may seek to pay nothing back until construction is complete, adding to the costs significantly. These are no small details.Metro West is gone West, every dog in the street knows that, how can they start construction on it with no money and no Railway Order? In April the Dept Transport announced EUR20M saving by pulling the funding from the Metro West Railway Order project, so they are not preparing anything at the moment.
PP is the ‘railway order’
there is no more cost on this.
your source for the shelving of metro west is ‘the dogs in the street’……….
I see.
I’m done with you. You’re simply making it up.
@marmajam wrote:
PP is the ‘railway order’
there is no more cost on this.
your source for the shelving of metro west is ‘the dogs in the street’……….
I see.
I’m done with you. You’re simply making it up.
AS I said, the funding was withdrawn from the Metro West Railway Order project.
Read this, there is NO allocation for Planning Metro West this year.
http://www.transport.ie/pressRelease.aspx?Id=82There is no effort to find funding for the construction of Metro West (due to begin this year) This project is shelved.
http://www.joanburton.ie/?postid=973
The Department of Finance made that comment in relation to the cost of financing the MN project, this funding has not yet been secured so how on earth does anyone know how much it’s going to cost?
Marma you said the Planning for MW is going ahead! HOW when they have had their entire budget cut?
You said the full costs of MN are know, HOW when they have not secured finance? What is the Payment Schedule? how much a year does the tax payer have to pay and for how many years? NOBODY KNOWS YET!it’s very difficult to know which side of this debate to believe when the level of debate is so shit.
I support Metro North and any attack on it based on the absence of Metro West is unfair as Metro West is still part of the transport strategy and it is still intended to be supplied. The fact that the country is currently crippled does not mean things will never happen. DART opened in 1984 when this country was a basket case.
@marmajam wrote:
Oh I see you are banning non residents of Swords from using the Swords sction.
And for all time no matter what develops there 😀
Swords is projected to have a pop of 100,000 by 2020.
Annual house building in 2008 was 22,500 for the entire state; Swords has a population of 37,767, that leaves a population of 62,233 to be added by 2020. Total House production in the next decade will be 225,000 units are you saying that 13.83% (assuming double occupancy) of housing produced in the country will be in Swords?
@marmajam wrote:
You have failed to answer the question PVC.
Why did you introduce a document that did not refer to MN as designed?
a bit embarassing to admit you were bluffing?
Web searches turned up the document in question; the one you claim at 34m passengers could not be located; if you post the link I will comment on it; although I suspect it is a document the RPA don’t want in the public domain as it is “too commercially sensitive”.
Time for you to answer a question; are you saying that a population of 54,127 can produce 16.4m passenger journeys per year?
@PVC King wrote:
Web searches turned up the document in question; the one you claim at 34m passengers could not be located; if you post the link I will comment on it; although I suspect it is a document the RPA don’t want in the public domain as it is “too commercially sensitive”.
Time for you to answer a question; are you saying that a population of 54,127 can produce 16.4m passenger journeys per year?
This is from the Draft Railway order, end of page 4 as numbered in the document.
It is based on the Metro West carrying 20Million passengers and the Dart Underground being completed. It is also based on passenger numbers increasing from 20M to 30M at Dublin Airport as well as lots of other projections that are no longer valid.Page 72 as numbered in the document, gives full details of Passenger demand for reference.
Thanks AC but that simply lays a claim to 35m it provides no guidance as to where the numbers actually come from.
I did however come across the document below:
There are three key flaws in this document firstly it does not give annual predictions for any location purely hourly capacity.
Secondly population density; the stated population density is 1,300 people per square kilometre on the route; taking 1 kilometre as being a realisitc walking distance the catchment of Metro North would be 34 square Kilometres which would give a catchment of 44,200 people
Thirdly the EIS that you kindly posted a link to lists a total of 2600 car spaces which is you give ridership figures of 1.5 cars per day only produces 3,900 journeys per day or assuming a six day week an annual total of 1.216m per year.
Add 8m airport passengers and you see that the 54,127 figure I gave by including all potential electoral wards as opposed to the sections of those wards that were convenient was a very safe bet.
Real demand based on the RPAs own figures in annual terms would be catchment 7.596m, Airport 8m and park and ride 1.216m or a total of 16.812m
Finally compare Budapest with a population density of 3,500 people per square kilometre and Metro North with a population density some 37% of the Budapest figure but Metro North has an hourly capacity 51.5% higher than a line with three times the catchment.
I am really starting to have my doubts as to how this project ever got off the ground; Luas is deemd adequate with a capacity of 4,650 per hour on the same population density.
Well ac1976, you were asked for any reference for your assertion that metro west had been shelved.
In spite of throwing various irrelevant references around like confetti covering everything from the petty cash receipts of the Bolivian Legion of Mary to the price of medicinal herbs in Mongolia you did not produce any reference whatsoever which supported your claim.
I don’t care what you or your dogs on the street know and neither do I care what link you dig up that could with the benefit of a genius’ imagination and lateral logic be construed as possibly related to transport somewhere in the world, I know for a fact that the planning application for metro west is being prepared right now by the RPA.
Any conclusions you jump to regarding the time frame for this project are merely you and your dogs opinion.
I don’t believe you even half understand the meaning of the references you dish out.
How did you come to the conclusion that when PP is obtained for MN,, an RPO will be needed?
You fail to understand the most basic issues related to these projects. You’d need intense training to get up to the level of a pub commentator.
Your posts are embarassing frankly.@marmajam wrote:
Well ac1976, you were asked for any reference for your assertion that metro west had been shelved…
You fail to understand the most basic issues related to these projects. You’d need intense training to get up to the level of a pub commentator.
Your posts are embarassing frankly.Do you have to insult every poster every time that debates with you?
It does little to advance a quality of discourse, and is putting me off this site 🙁
Agreed Hutton but if you look at his posting he only gets abusive when he is trying to evade answering a question.
Such as justifying the population density for the route which cab clearly be seen from the link below as that proves that the demand forecasts for Metro North are a complete work of fiction.
@PVC King wrote:
There are three key flaws in this document firstly it does not give annual predictions for any location purely hourly capacity.
Secondly population density; the stated population density is 1,300 people per square kilometre on the route; taking 1 kilometre as being a realisitc walking distance the catchment of Metro North would be 34 square Kilometres which would give a catchment of 44,200 people
Thirdly the EIS that you kindly posted a link to lists a total of 2600 car spaces which is you give ridership figures of 1.5 cars per day only produces 3,900 journeys per day or assuming a six day week an annual total of 1.216m per year.
Add 8m airport passengers and you see that the 54,127 figure I gave by including all potential electoral wards as opposed to the sections of those wards that were convenient was a very safe bet.
Real demand based on the RPAs own figures in annual terms would be catchment 7.596m, Airport 8m and park and ride 1.216m or a total of 16.812m
Finally compare Budapest with a population density of 3,500 people per square kilometre and Metro North with a population density some 37% of the Budapest figure but Metro North has an hourly capacity 51.5% higher than a line with three times the catchment.
I am really starting to have my doubts as to how this project ever got off the ground; Luas is deemd adequate with a capacity of 4,650 per hour on the same population density.
Well PVC
Let’s go over a few of your assertions from the MN and related issues.
Yesterday you tried to slip in an obselete report to back up an invented assertion.
A paper from 2003 that did not relate to the design under debate.It was a bit like a schoolboy answering a Latin question in French hoping the examiner wouldn’t spot the difference.
In the education system you would be expelled in disgrace.
But let’s look a bit further. Because there’s more.
Previously to that you have asserted that:
Metro systems only run on the 3rd rail system.
That people would prefer to travel overground by tram through traffic and traffic lights rather than take a fast underground option.
That the interest on MN would be 7.5% (will be 5%)
That MN did not connect to anything.That no CBA was done for MN (there’s 2)
That no other system can run on MN (designed to take Luas also)
That MN was only Luas (no it has 4 times capacity of Luas)There’s more but that’ll do for now..
In fact when all your points are scrutinised they fall apart quicker than a candy floss in a bomb explosion.
You simply make up your facts.
I’ll let you in on a secret. I never read your numbers – I’d have no confidance in anything you come out with. I merely glance at the posts and point out the more glaring non sequitors and absurdities.
Enough bluster – just answer the question relating to a document produced by the RPA; this is the third time this has been put to you.
There are three key flaws in this document firstly it does not give annual predictions for any location purely hourly capacity.
Secondly population density; the stated population density is 1,300 people per square kilometre on the route; taking 1 kilometre as being a realisitc walking distance the catchment of Metro North would be 34 square Kilometres which would give a catchment of 44,200 people
Thirdly the EIS that you kindly posted a link to lists a total of 2600 car spaces which is you give ridership figures of 1.5 cars per day only produces 3,900 journeys per day or assuming a six day week an annual total of 1.216m per year.
Add 8m airport passengers and you see that the 54,127 figure I gave by including all potential electoral wards as opposed to the sections of those wards that were convenient was a very safe bet.
Real demand based on the RPAs own figures in annual terms would be catchment 7.596m, Airport 8m and park and ride 1.216m or a total of 16.812m
Finally compare Budapest with a population density of 3,500 people per square kilometre and Metro North with a population density some 37% of the Budapest figure but Metro North has an hourly capacity 51.5% higher than a line with three times the catchment.
I am really starting to have my doubts as to how this project ever got off the ground; Luas is deemd adequate with a capacity of 4,650 per hour on the same population density.
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