The Spike

Originally posted by GregF
Very obvious to see then that the Irish general public are thick when it comes to the visual arts and architecture…..that they are pessimistic and ignorant….. where as the German lady was more optimistic and open minded.
Sums up Irish society and so much for our over rated education system.

making any judgements based on three individuals selectively quoted by a journo is the height of folly.

I would imagine design education is far superior in germany though (ie they have some).

Of course everyone has a right to their opinion, irrespective of education. But in a rational society, you have to give greater weight to better- informed opinions.
The vox pops have certainly not been selective – I was down there when the second bit was going up and everyone was commenting as they passed – ‘stupid’, ‘what’s it for’, ‘waste of money’, ‘the state of it’, etc. At one point, they were practically queuing up to share their pearls of wisdom with the TV cameras.
If everything was a popularity contest decided by public consent, you’d never get anything daring or innovative built. The public has to take some of the blame for the way Ireland looks today.
The reason our cities are ruined with space-wasting semi-Ds and countryside covered in ugly bungalows is because that is where the housing market has driven architecture.
That’s how the people want to live and that’s what your ‘man in the street’ thinks is good design.
Yes, the Spike is being built with public money, but at some stage, you have to let those whose job it is to run the city to make the tough decisions.
I think the vox pops we’ve seen on the Spike show the depth of ignorance in Irish public opinion on art and architecture. The two main objections seem to be:
-What’s it for? It doesn’t do anything.
-Why couldn’t the money be given to the homeless?
Well, the national gallery is full of stuff that doesn’t do anything, why don’t we throw it all out and fill it with useful things like buckets and engines and hammers?
And then there’s this illsuion that there’s a central Art or Homeless fund that denies a poor person food and shelter for every non-essential public project.
Nothing else in Ireland that gets public funding is attacked for taking from the homeless in the same way. All because it doesn’t ‘do’ anything.
If you take the moral argument to its conclusion, the Eiffel Tower or Taj Mahal would never have been built – useless monuments in countries full of poverty.
I don’t care where they went to school, but I think most people in this country don’t care much about their built environment. So I’m not paying much attention to the vox pops.

Don’t you think the Spike is trying to say something about Ireland the same way the Eiffel Tower was saying something about France?
Even if it’s just that we have (had!) a lot of money and we can afford big shiny monuments…

I myself am not an architect, nor from Dublin ( I’m a culchie) , but:
Check out – if you are registered – the Irish Times feedback forum from a few days ago. The vote was 50/50 in favor of the Spire and the comments were even more skewed in favor – the most orthodox ( What about the homeless? ) comments being the least articulate.

As an aside : I traveled on 2 bus tours in cities last year : one in New York , the other in Dublin.

The Dublin tour-guide was full of disgust for anything that was built by the Irish since independence. He was full of self demeaning anti-Irish remarks ( i.e. “pubs and Churches – Sums us up doesn’t it!”) and loved only the architecture built by the British or Norman.

The New Yorker was full of verve , joy and love of his home town and discussed animatedly the plans for the World Trade center site. He was, if anything, more working class than the Irish guy ( I detected a D4 accent there).

It is pretty remarkable what little culture we have produced as a nation since independence. And so little pride. Of course we have produced some literary culture – but that can’t be considered the culture of the State, or people : it is private culture ( I can imagine some witless luvvie stumbling upon James Joyce though, and asking him if he was going to continue work on that incomprehensible book or go help the homeless. [shrill voice] “What use is your book. What does it do?!!!”).

Architecture is primarily – these days – the art of the State, or mostly sanctioned by the State, and thus is the real expression of the people in a democracy, and we have produced so little of it.

This despite the fact that Dublin/Ireland is one of the richest places per capita in the world : and thus in the history of the world. Look at what (a much poorer) Athens produced in its heyday.

All rich cultures and generations leave something behind. Some art. Even tribal societies. We leave behind semi-detached houses stretching to infinity.
Sums us up, doesn’t it?

As an aside: tourists visit places for architecture, climate, situation and culture , among others, and not because of the absence of homeless people. San Francisco has more homeless than Fargo, for instance; And many more tourists.
Further, the city spent $400 million on homeless people this last year. The transient population trends at about 4,000 at any one time; so that is $100,000 each.

Lots more expensive than the spire: and didn’t solve the problem.

trying to be a devil’s advocate here, lets see if we can get an answer.

Can the spire’s spending be justified in the light of social standards in Dublin?

C.

cheers for the answer at least,
I dlike to hear more opinions on this matter though.

But i do agree with the attention and rejuvenation point, this too is impossible really to quantify thereby it will not be seen by many in the public as a justifiable reason.

C.

any more cliches you care to roll out?

an irish entry didn’t win because they weren’t as good. the best of the bunch was chosen (just like every other fair competition). Obviously it’s a subjective decision, but spare me the need to throw up second rate irish options.

You don’t like needles? Fair enough. It’s a simple concept/structure, but theres no requirement to complicate a concept for complexity’s sake. By your criteria we should have some baroque contraption that defies simple reproduction. Those Mies buildings are a bit simple too aren’t they? A child of three could draft them up no bother.

I agree, stop all this navel-gazing. I thing it’s a bold move putting the spike up, to be commended. Just, a pity it took so long…….

If anything the huge waste of resources and the work practices of the public services should be examined and not a structure and development to clean up the main street of our capital city…

Another section going up today (6th Jan) really looking forward to seeing it – however be warned!!! That Ukrainian emigre artist woman (the one who wanted the reconstruction of the Nelson Pillar with a giant golden globe on top) is posing as a journalist and doing vox-pops of her own. If she doesn’t like what you say (i.e. if you actually like the Spire) she gets into a shouting match with you saying “you know nothing about art….” sore loser or just plain nuts?

any idea of time?…