The Great 1930s Scheme
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Holy God Graham but given the present social climate I would hope you keep your camera well concealed during your perambulations through Crumlin/Drimnagh…..:eek:
Its something to keep in the back of your mind,that the sight of a strange fellow taking pictures of individual houses and cars in a resedential area might not be seen as having anything to do with a Social/Architectural forum in some people`s minds…….Bi Cuaramach A Cairde 🙂I think that the most lamentable thing here is that these great works of planning is that they aren’t done anymore. If you look at the map above you see that the area is well laid out in a web of roads which create some sense of there being a neighbourhood. One road leads to another and traffic is assimilated better. Nowadays though all you have are cul-de-sacs with 200 homes on them which all lead on to the same road. There could be 5 or 6 estates leading onto what was a country road 5 years ago, which leads to the same set of traffic lights.Theres no sense of area, just anonomous estates with roads that go from the exit/enterance to the end and back again. The large housing estates built by the government in cities around the country in the fifties and sixties were well designed in terms of layout though socially they were a disaster. Sometimes I wish that the government would make up the plans for new neighbourhoods themselves, with better integrated road networks, and then let the developers do the rest. But thats not going to happen.
On the subject of the careless alterations of houses such as these, have you seen some of the colours on houses
in knocknaheeny in Cork? Luminous orange ground to gutter. Yuk!@PTB wrote:
On the subject of the careless alterations of houses such as these, have you seen some of the colours on houses
in knocknaheeny in Cork? Luminous orange ground to gutter. Yuk!Maybe you should call in and complain?
Yes original windows and doors are a missing feature now around crumlin. Ive often been temped to call into an ‘original’ house when its just been sold on and ask for all the windows and doors if the house was being gutted, which more often than not it is. but ive never done it.
Speaking of walls they are an amazing asset to the estates. Not sure if anyone noticed over the past few months, but a house on the corner of Sundrive Road and Clogher Road had its curved original front wall damaged very badly in a traffic accident. The owners have done a most amazing job on restoring the wall to almost original condition and it really does look fantastic. Although one would know on looking at it that the quality just isn’t the same. In Crumlin all those lines are perfectly straight and level in the walls, the border where the bit of dashing crosses onto render is perfectly straight, and the curves leading up to the pillars are all perfectly formed. In this day and age with all our technology 70 years later, out builders just cannot seem to get this right. and It shows. none the less it’s a pretty good job. ill try and get a photo.
dAve.
@djasmith wrote:
Yes original windows and doors are a missing feature now around crumlin. Ive often been temped to call into an ‘original’ house when its just been sold on and ask for all the windows and doors if the house was being gutted, which more often than not it is. but ive never done it.
Speaking of walls they are an amazing asset to the estates. Not sure if anyone noticed over the past few months, but a house on the corner of Sundrive Road and Clogher Road had its curved original front wall damaged very badly in a traffic accident. The owners have done a most amazing job on restoring the wall to almost original condition and it really does look fantastic. Although one would know on looking at it that the quality just isn’t the same. In Crumlin all those lines are perfectly straight and level in the walls, the border where the bit of dashing crosses onto render is perfectly straight, and the curves leading up to the pillars are all perfectly formed. In this day and age with all our technology 70 years later, out builders just cannot seem to get this right. and It shows. none the less it’s a pretty good job. ill try and get a photo.
dAve.
Back then people took pride in their work – builders today are not the apprenticed craftsmen of old, rather they are the jack of all/master of none variety
i always liked on these roads how all the houses were the same and yet all differant in little ways,although one of those front extensions you showed is crazy!by the way does anyone know why these houses only have one window upstairs?
From what I remember of being in the houses, all of the Mk1’s, Mk2’s and the Mk3’s have just the one bedroom across the front originally, some with the hotpress in here too. However lots of the houses have had little additions over the years some fitting in an extra bedroom, some sticking a bathroom in there. My grandfathers house on cashel road in crumlin didnt have a bathroom as new, it was outside. Not sure if it was a mk1 or mk2 but ill check it out tomorrow! certainly wasn’t a mk3 i dont think.
The bigger 3 bed houses in inchicore had the ‘box room’ as we call it at the front of the house as well as the master bedroom.
Now here’s another question: At the corners of some of the roads eg captains road and stannaway road, there are bigger houses again. They have 2 windows on each level at the front, one to either side of the front door. there style houses are only built on the corners… were they built at the same time as the others? they look older yet that wouldnt make sense as they fit in perfectly with the estate
Hello Dave. I’ve enjoyed your posts, and your obvious passion for these houses! It’s great to see such commitment and interest in something that most people just turn a blind eye to.
I’m very surprised the houses of Cashel Road were only built with an outside toilet as late as c. 1930 – presumably they had interior washrooms at least? I must check out the corner houses you refer to.
Thanks for the link you posted in your other thread – fantastic interiors!
Property websites are increasing helpful for allowing sneaky views of original interiors!
There is such little appreciation for the original joinery in these sturdy little houses: simple, elegant and pleasing to the eye. I recently spent about eight hours stripping back years of paint from a 1950’s handrail similar to that above, and in spite of the gruelling process, it came up beaufifully once sanded and stained as original. The difference these small improvements can make is enromous – the same regarding Bakelite handles, light switches, architraving, steel windows etc.
Unfortunately more of this is still happening as we speak.
Surely works of this scale require planning permission, in which case why is DCC permitting such unashamedly insensitive and inappropriate alterations to residential stock? And the original boundary walls swept clean away – now what monstrous tack can we expect in their place?
Contrast the lop-sided disaster on the above corner house with its colleague opposite.
What even remote connection does tan brick have to 1930’s pebble-dashed housing?! This coloured material in particular is bizarrely popular in Crumlin, and is destroying the place by stealth. Obviously there’s no objection to people extending their homes, but the ham-fisted manner of the vast majority of jobs leaves a lot to be desired. Not even a more considerate wine brick is ever used to tie in with existing string courses and dressings.
And speaking of wine brick (you probably know this one Dave), there is the most delightful little gem of a building on Cashel Road in Crumlin, a stone’s throw from the three-school ‘campus’ in the area. Seemingly once built as a health centre or community hall, today it stands apparently idle or at best underused as a modern-day health centre for the South Western Area Health Board (which unfortunatly on first glance somes across as SWAB)
A delightful neo-Palladian design, it features little curved wings (seemingly since heightened to stop people sitting on them), an imposing Lutyens slated roof, and crowned with crisp and elegantly austere chimneys.
As is typical, the only steel windows to survive are those not being used or otherwise inaccessible – in this case in the charming central gable.
All of the cast iron rainwater goods survive.
As do the faintly Art Nouveau boundary furnishings.
Supported by elegantly profiled little feet atop a rendered concrete base.
It’s sited as an (admittedly underwhelming) focal point on a green on Cashel Road.
Such a shame the state it’s in. Given the abuse I got from a passing car while taking the pics, looks like it’ll probably stay that way too.
There’s other examples of these well-designed public buildings in similar estates.
Well Im heading out on a little expedition in a while around Crumlin on the rothar and ill take a few photos of those corner houses see what ye make of them. Yes the health clinic is a lovely little building, and unfortunately it does suffer a lot of negligance.
Just a couple of interesting little note about the map you have posted above. Im sure its quite obvious to most people, but ill metion it anyway. Crumlin was beautifully designed to depict a celtic cross, and the majority of the roads from the 1930’s sceme are named after monastary associations…. The one that stands out like a sore thumb that isn’t is Captains road. The name of captains road derives from the original captains lane, where the ‘captain’ of a grand house around where brookfield estate was murdered one night. The lane was used to join windmill road to the mills along the poddle, at the current Lower Kimmage Road. The lane ran pretty uch in the direction of Captains road, but towards the kimmage end took the path of the current Ravensdale Drive…
Which leads me to another point… On most maps, including you map above, there is ‘Rathland road’ in the area where cashel road and captains road meet. This road has been called Ravensdale Drive for the last 20 years or so, yet is still referred to as Rathland Road on many maps and on all post to our house from the government offices etc. The name ravensdale comes from one of the many flour mills that were along the poddle. Some others included Loder Park Mills, and Larkfield Mills.
However Im straying from the 1930’s scheme now… lets go back.
I mentioned above that Crumlin is built in the shape of a celtic cross. 2 other areas with similar design thoughts were Ballyfermot, and Cabra.
Lets look at Ballyfermot first. The stone on the roundabout has 3 names for Ballyfermot in irish, one of which translates as ‘The Town of Conflict’…. people from Ballyfermot dont like to admit this translation. Now if we look at the map of ballyfermot, we’ll discover a very deliberate design feature…. It’s built in the shape of a sword…. Town of Conflict…. Sword…. Have a look for yourself:
The other one that I’ve heard about, but dont know the full story of is Cabra. The story I originally heard was that Cabra before its investment in the 30’s and 40’s was an increadabely run down area. The basica idea was that this sceme would give new hope, new life, and new beginnings to cabra. And so as a result, Cabra was built in the shape of a tree, to display all of these qualitys. Again I dont know alot about tis area but im sure somebody else could shed some light on it.
If anyone else is interested in history of the Kimmage/Crumlin area i can throw another post up tomorrow. Although im tending to stray away from the ‘1930’s scheme’
Marino is the other great 1930’s estate, built in the same design. Sorry I don’t seem to be able to post a map or satellite link. I’ve heard 2 reasons for the Celtic Cross design. The first is to do with the rise of Nationalism at this time and the desire to promote Ireland as a country post independence. The second is to commemorate the Eucharistic Congress which happened in Dublin in the 30’s.
Here’s those corner houses on the corner of Captains Road and Stannaway Road. They’re in quite a few different locations around the estates and link the roads together quiet nicely. Were they built at the same time??
Here’s one on the opposite corner, one of few which is pretty much in original condition, apart from the front door etc.
Further up captains road just after the right turn onto armagh road, are these houses. There’s a few terraces of the scattered around, but not to many. They’re similar in style to the bigger corner houses above, but not identical. Again I dont know a whole lot about them only where they are.
At the very end of Captains Road, just before Windmill Road, we have one of these prized corner houses. As pointed out by graham above, these houses were given ‘special treatment’ from day one. Being on a corner they had bigger gardens, and often decorated that little bit better with that maroon coloured brick. Also most fo the corner houses were Mk3’s, the biggest of the houses, (although this one isn’t) even on a road of Mk1’s on one side and Mk2’s on the other, these bigger houses will be plonked on the corners. Unfortunately not all of these houses are receiving ‘special treatment’ anymore……
And finally in this batch of captains road photos, directly across the road from the above house, there’s a beautiful Mk2 (I think, can’t see the chimney forgot to look).
Ok now we skip around the corner onto Cashel Road. As graham pointed out the health clinic opposite the 1st green on the road, Ill point out the former church on the 2nd green. Its marked down as a church on maps as we can see from the above post, but the pictures tell otherwise…
Crumlin Hall is the name above the door. Dont know how long it’s been like this, or I can’t even say I’ve ever seen the front door open… Just like the health clinic, the condition oft he building says a lot about it…
Just take a look at the sade gates into it, and that awful eyesore of a drive… Not to mention the pillars.
Finally I’ll throw in a couple of photos of the schools on armagh road. There’s 3 schools on armagh road, and one around the corner on captains road. There’s also a convent on armagh road and around the corner from that on stannaway drive, and there’s st. colombus house on armagh road. All of these buildings are within 5 minutes of each other, and are all beautifully maintained for working buildings. Unfortunately the future of the Armagh Road schools doesn’t look too secure. Time will tell of what is to happen these wonderful buildings.
the second school one Armagh road, opposite the above. My favourite of all the buildings in the area. Unfortunately my poor photography work doesn’t capture it very well.Great stuff lads, keep it coming. A part of Dublin history that’s rarely remarked upon except of course in Ruth McManus’ great book ‘Shaping the Suburbs’.
Dave, I’m curious what you mean about Ballyfermot being shaped like a sword. But sort of see what you mean about Cabra: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=dublin&ie=UTF8&ll=53.364408,-6.281948&spn=0.010397,0.028839&z=15&om=1
There are some wonderful houses in this part of Cabra and in general they are in far better repair than those in Crumlin. There’s also a lovely red-brick church, which when I finally get a decent camera will take some pictures of.Can you not see the shape of the sword above within the red shape?? Landen and Decies roads form the ‘blade’, with Lally road acting as the ‘point’. To the left of the image you can see Thomond road and Muskerry road forming a handle….. It takes imagination but it is certainly there!
I can’t see it either lol. More a dagger perhaps? A slashhook maybe? 😮
Ah the schools – thanks for the pics Dave. Yes they’re three very interesting buildings – two stripped classical and one wine-bricked modernist, the latter finished in 1939 I think. Is either of the two former boys schools in use anymore? One is in pretty poor condition, with the other used by the health board I think – decked out in all-singing PVC a few years ago :rolleyes:. All combined, the schools form an oddly mounmental air to what is an otherwise modest residential suburb.
I’d imagine the big corner houses with brick dressings are a little later than the stocky all-render houses, though it’s hard to say. I think there’s similar ones around Stannaway Avenue too, near the park. Lots of great front doors around here too, esp on private houses. If there’s a single good thing to be said about aluminium infill porches, it’s that they usually saved the front door itself from being replaced, so many have survived thus far. Alas the lure of the heritage stained glass brigade is proving increasingly strong of late. Hope to get some more pics soon.
Agreed about Marino alonso. Generally nicer than Crumlin – it’s amazing what a few trees and more intimate road widths can achieve. There’s much more of a garden suburb feel there.
If I’m not mistaken there’s a wine-coloured brick building on Brian Road in Marino that’s identical to the Cashel Road one. It’s on the bit that faces the Malahide Road and is in a much happier state of repair.
@djasmith wrote:
Can you not see the shape of the sword above within the red shape?? Landen and Decies roads form the ‘blade’, with Lally road acting as the ‘point’. To the left of the image you can see Thomond road and Muskerry road forming a handle….. It takes imagination but it is certainly there!
I’m guessing you’re thinking of something like a pirate’s cutlass?
Or was it something a little more exotic, like this late 19th century beauty from the Democratic Republic of the Congo?
😀
😮
A few more views of two of the three schools on Armagh Road in the morning sun, all built around the late 1930s.
This building probably has the greatest architectural ambition – the others are relatively predictable. Even this is no great shakes, but like its colleagues is well-proportioned and suitably imposing for what were some of the largest schools in the city. Such a shame all its original windows – probably of steel – have been lost.
Lovely Mannerist entrance columns – always liked these.
And a distinctive – if underwhelming – cupola perched on top.
The adjacent school is more textbook watery neoclassical; it looks like a seaside Victorian convent in Dun Laoghaire.
Sadly mauled with PVC a few years ago.
Its austere chimneys and hipped roofs cut an imposing silhouette.
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