The failure of Ireland
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Darkman, I love your passionate diatribe aginst what you see as a wasted opportunity. I am concerned about the quality of the development of Ireland. I came to live here in 98 and have seen big changes on a daily basis. I recently visited China and and the main cities including the largest in the world Chong Ching (40 million if u include the suburbs) and Beijing which is the size of Belgium. I came back with a kind of empty feeling after trying to come to terms with and endless sea of skyscrapers and isolated people iliving n the sky. I live in Cork where I am so lucky. My neighbours know my and my partners names. They greet us and chat about allsorts. Its a real community. Have architects forgotten about the social aspect of their grand designs? I prefer low rise cities and of course a few tall buildings are welcome. Unfortunately there is a builder in Cork who wants to dump his big lego set lacking any artistic merit on the river Lee. Not if me and my lovely neighours can help it!
the solution to a deep inferiority complex isn’t to try and emulate other bigger counties (with drastically bigger populations than us requiring much higher density)
what is needed is an irish solution to an irish problem. it would only continue a tradition of inferiority to look elsewhere to find the answers.
As G.B.Shaw once said ..
“The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who haven’t got it.â€I agree with Darkman. We have failed. I think he makes some very valid points. It was a missed opportunity, we are still failing to take advantage of. Part of the failure was not any inherent Irish gene, its base human behavior, power, corruption and lies have certainly cost us dearly (although they did give us a great album from New Order 🙂 ). Id argue we did in fact change our mentality , but then Id ask why (?) , maybe we tried to change it too much, Why did we need to change, could we not have retained our own identify whilst managing sustainable growth. Did architects need to embrace their European experience and transplant it here, could they not have evolved their own Irish school, as many Irish designers and artists did during the Arts+Crafts movement.
And as someone who lived through the 80s and did indeed face the Berlin, Boston or dole dilemma ( took the dole) I feel qulified to speak on this. Actually it wasn’t as bad as people make out and part of the problems at the time were caused by certain individuals via illegal,corrupt and immoral practices handsomely lining their own pockets at the expense of the workers . Still goes on but we care less as the working class have evolved to a middle class.
Those who blather on that we should be grateful Ireland and the Irish people only now takes their place at the top table with other nations should revisit their history books. We have a glorious history of achievements in science, mathematics, design, literature, philosophy that pre-dates a few cute cailins from Dundalk and some tap dancing buachail from Michigan… granted we have had some great achievements in recent decades but that’s nothing new. What is new is that we had opportunity for even greater and more whole scale achievements but we passed on all that for some tempered glass and a bit of wood facade.
I agree – I am devastated by thinking about missed opportunities.
It’s just that I don’t think tall buildings, bigger tunnels, bigger motorway junctions, submarines or fighter jets are particularly creative ideas. Grands Projets are so over.
Why not say something like “we will make Dublin the world’s first carbon neutral capital by 2020”. Now that’s an interesting propositon. Can I be the only person who thinks that “We will have some tall buildings just like our European neighbours” sounds lame by comparison?
In fairness to Ireland (govt and people both) the short termism can maybe be blamed on the fact that no-one could tell how long the boom would last. If in 1997 you said that the boom which was a couple of years old by then would last 10 years, there would have been a lot of scepticism. There would certinaly not been enough evidence to go planning hugely ambitious projects. The last tiem that was done was in the late 70s when Fianna Fail promised full emplyment based on some seriously over optimistic economic models, kicking off a disastrous recession that lasted nearly 20 years.
Well at least the M50 is getting proper sphagetti junctions at last. That project seems to be the most optimistic ongoing atm which is not saying much.
Great.
Why not say something like “we will make Dublin the world’s first carbon neutral capital by 2020”. Now that’s an interesting propositon. Can I be the only person who thinks that “We will have some tall buildings just like our European neighbours” sounds lame by comparison?
Ahh no but pretty close. What are you working for the green party or something? And the whole carbon neutral capital thing lol…comon how realistic would it be for irish people to suddenly say hey i know lets all chip in for the environment have you actualy seen the state of streets in urban areas in ireland the county council don’t even clean litter up after people.
I walk out every day and see mountains of litter on the street and say to myself irish people dont even have enough self respect to clean up after themselves how the hell would they ever take the lead on something. Its all about self respect the whole building big having a military to defend the country, it’s all about self respect if you don’t respect your country or where your heading then imo talking about grand architectural projects seems like pie in the sky.
And as for not being an irish trait i lived in japan and the usa and they would never litter the streets after themselves even in europe (except the u.k) people have too much pride in their area to do that.
I do believe its an irish thing the mindset. Living on the periphery of europe never having to defend anything and being neutral?? whatever that means…means we have become lazy and self centered.Hopefully the younger generation will change things..
@JL wrote:
Great.
Yes it is and we need more of this sort of inititive. Do you work for the Green party?
Why – do you have to work for the green party to care about the environment? If that’s the case we’re in bigger trouble than I thought. tfarmer you’re right, you win, I give up.
@JL wrote:
Why – do you have to work for the green party to care about the environment?
In a word – yes.
no but how is dublin going carbon neutral going to save the enviroment in any way the major polluters in the world are the usa china and india all with populations over 300 million. Seems like that would be just paying lip service to the environmental issue.
Ireland emissions aren’t even worth talking about they would have very little effect on the environment. Be realistic…. and my point was if irish people dont even care to pick litter up which is a more immediate concern for the ‘environment’ why would carbon emissions matter.
How about real policies worth talking about and worth doing.
JL I like the idea, I think its brilliant, proves my point your following a long line of Irish people making the initial breakthrough in concept.Making Dublin a “carbon neutral capital ” gets my vote, I like it, may not be achieveable but its a worthy pursuit. It would be even nicer if you were thinking make IRELAND Carbon neutral but then its easy to forget about the rest of the country theres only a couple of million of us culchies sure what would we know about such things as carbon neutral, and CFCs is that Carlow football Club.;-)
tfarmer – ..hasnt Gordon Brown just proposed 5 eco cities for Britain and you do know theres a difference between the Labour Party and the Greens ? I live in Ameirca and I dont know where you lived when you were here but my neighbourhood is disgusting with trash as are lots of other parts Ive been to, far worse than any O’Connell st in any town in Irl.Now that we have established our nations and our leaders in all social spheres, abject failure to realise potential and wasted oppurtunity , be interesting to hear what other ideas people have.
Developing nations and even some developed nations look to Ireland as an exemplary nation rising from the ashes of the dark ages ’80s, now that we have their attention aims like ‘carbon neutral’ cities might sway them in that direction too.
In the words of a great econmist, “Ireland has forgotten that the economy is there to serve society, society is not there to serve the economy”.Can’t really claim any credit – this sort of thing is becoming common currency these days internationally:
China
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DongtanAbu Dhabi
http://www.bdonline.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=725&storycode=3086598&c=1&encCode=00000000012fe35cLondon
http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/environment/climate-change/But I do apologise for being Dublin-ocentric.
Darkman – isn’t it amazing that the Communist Party of China and even the Tory party in England (when even the Tories are talking about the environment you know it must be something to worry about) are talking about these things, and yet if you talk about it in an architecture forum in Ireland you’re branded as some sort of whacked out green activist.
@JL wrote:
isn’t it amazing that the Communist Party of China and even the Tory party in England (when even the Tories are talking about the environment you know it must be something to worry about) are talking about these things, and yet if you talk about it in an architecture forum in Ireland you’re branded as some sort of whacked out green activist.
Which, to an extent, brings us back to that question of why we have so much self analysis. I think there simply is a question – why are we so crap? How is the rest of the world clued in to climate change while we’re saying ‘oh, that’ll never catch on here’.
I think part of the problem is that so much of our economic growth is simply foriegn firms coming in to avail of a tax break. That means Irish people haven’t contributed much to the strategic decisions that put money in our pockets. So we end up a bit like the Hobbits.
My own conclusion, based on much fretting over our national capacity to shit on our own doorstep, is simply that Irish people are stupid and ignorant. I’m merely advancing this as a hypothesis – but I find it explains pretty much anything that you might mention about what’s wrong with Ireland.
We have digressed a bit from Darkmans original posting (no not the high rises in Dublin one!) .
But to take Schuhart up on something he saidWhich, to an extent, brings us back to that question of why we have so much self analysis. I think there simply is a question – why are we so crap? How is the rest of the world clued in to climate change while we’re saying ‘oh, that’ll never catch on here’.
Self Analysis is a good thing, the unexamined life is the unlived one. You’re the one that’s ignorant in fact not the Irish people. If you knew anything about Carbon footprints you would know that Ireland actually ranks very low in the table of developed nations regarding our footprint and biocapacity. So while we may not be at the forefront of discussing it or as JL says if you raise the topic you’re labeled a loony tree -hugger, we are also a developed nation which is not actually responsible for all that much climate change.
Other more progressive nations might be talking about it more, well they should be after all they are the culprits. Still as JL says its another opportunity for us to lead the way, maybe if the 3 beatitudes Bertie, Bono and Bob get together we can rally other nations behind making Dublin an example of a carbon neutral ‘crapital’ city.Getting back to Darkmans original intent .. Irelands architectural and urban design failures are not unique.. some people believe we have learned the wrong lessons from modernism, I posted this elsewhere..
Nathan Glazer : From A Cause to a Style – Modernists Architecture’s Encounter with the American City
He is Professor Emeritus of Sociology and Education at Harvard University.
Good book , recommended reading for those want to describe themselves as architects. Much of what the author contends can be applied to the recent developments in Ireland and the failures of our ‘Starchitects’ to engage with society and the surroundings in their work.
He argues (very successfully) that today’s leading architects learned the wrong lessons from modernism’s mistakes, and need to re-engage with the life of cities
“I’m talking about people who were thinking about how to create a better city,” Glazer says. And from that important conversation, Glazer says, architects have been missing.in my own opinion we came to a fork in the road post-war, one path lead to the Bauhaus – modernist de-constructionism movement, the other lead the way of the Arts+Crafts. Obviously its easier to make/design a Wassily chair than a MacKintosh one… so like lemmings designers and architects pushed the envelope down the Weimar modernistic path constantly de-constructing the plane…and we never looked back or had the resolve to break away from that.
Mick, thanks for posting that. It really does look of significant interest.
mickletterfrack wrote:You’]Reflect on what you are saying here. You are agreeing that Irish people generally don’t have much of a clue about climate change, and then trying to relate the general ignorance that you’ve identified in some way to Ireland not being a major polluter. In a statement that you start by saying You’re the one that’s ignorant in fact not the Irish people.Would you like to try making your point again? I promise not to raise the small matter of climate change being a global matter and the idea that the rest of the world will see no reason why Ireland shouldn’t go on burning oil to be the band while they fundementally restructure their lives. After all, we’re harmless, fun loving Hobbits and everyone loves Hobbits. That’s why we always do so well at Eurovision.
I’ll be happy if you just manage to make a coherent statement along the lines ‘Irish people are ignorant about climate change, but of course if you look at it in purely national terms we’re not a big part of the problem. Hence, if you could tow Ireland off onto another Earth-like planet someone in the Crab Nebula, they’d have no reason to take an interest.’
I’m a little bit lost here….
I thought we were talking about two separate issues. One is self-examination, which is good but I think if it goes too far it becomes self-absorption and gets in the way of ever actually looking at things objectively and doing something.
The other is about what we are trying to achieve and not missing opportunities. My view is that we should be looking 50 years into the future (designing for climate change, a post-carbon economy and aiming for the best and most elegant technological and ecological urban and architectural designs) and not 50 years into the past (a world where high rises and fly-overs are the Next Big Thing).
@JL wrote:
One is self-examination, which is good but I think if it goes too far it becomes self-absorption and gets in the way of ever actually looking at things objectively and doing something.
Absolutely. We’re all in favour of that, so there’s probably little need to discuss that any further. @JL wrote:
The other is about what we are trying to achieve and not missing opportunities. My view is that we should be looking 50 years into the future (designing for climate change, a post-carbon economy and aiming for the best and most elegant technological and ecological urban and architectural designs) and not 50 years into the past (a world where high rises and fly-overs are the Next Big Thing).
I think your suggestion is apt and relevant. Others seem more convinced by the idea that, as Ireland is not a big net polluter, we can forget about all that and build all the high rises and fly-overs that we like. I’d love to stay and talk, only my Lamborghini Diablo Roadster awaits.
Id like to have kept to the original thread kept our egos and sensitivities out of this and not argue semantics.
Jaysus what is it with some people on this forum … you say Ireland isnt responsible for global warming and suddenly your quoted as saying your in favour of high rises and flyovers…
I wasnt implying we shouldnt take an interest in fact I did say its an oppurtunity for Ireland to once again lead the way and Id argue as we historicaly werent a major polluter we should not have to shoulder an inbalance in responsibility, but I never said we should run riot with our emissions. Besides by your logic the yak farmer in Mogolia with a carbon footprint in the +200 range should be condemed for his ignorance too. Sure the Germans, French , mainland europeans are more educated about re-cycling (big deal) have been doing it for years and are shocked when they see us thrash our little Dannone actimels.. but heh we still come in way under the radar as regards which one of us is impacting climate change the most. Its a bit like the old buying indulgences from the papacy, or like Al Gore would argue he buys carbon credits in the African savannah to offset his huge electricity bill, 24×7 heated indoor swiming pool etc , so his footprint is balanced and ignorant paddy is to blame cos he doesnt know what his footprint is. Im not going to stand by and let someone take some kind of educated high-ground calling Irish people ignorant. Id prefer to be ignorant and not-recyling with low emissions than educated recycling but with a high-carbon footprint.
Can we get back to solving Irelands urban design failings now…Get the whole nation behind a grand concept of an eco city, improve design and cut down emmissions two birds with one quill.
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