The failure of Ireland

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    • #709367
      darkman
      Participant

      Hi,

      Driving through town today (Dublin) I found myself looking at a skyline that was losing the cranes. I felt sad and disappointed as I drove through Docklands wondering – Just what was acheived during our boom that any other nation on earth would have given their right hand to have? The answer – very little. The Docklands is a failure – a failure of enlightenment of highrise development – a sympthom of failure of Irish attitude to change. Our tallest building after the Celtic Tiger is 70m high. What has been built during the boom that is ‘extraordinary’? Why do we have an orbital motorway with 2 lanes and roundabouts as junctions? Why do we have the type of airport terminal not found in Ethiopia? Why do we have roads that are not even painted and have potholes everywhere? Why has our failure occured?

      I can only come to the conclusion that we (collectively) have failed as a nation during our best time. Why have great things not happened? We should have the tallest building in Europe by now – but we dont. We have a tunnel too small for truckers.. A railway network not fit for the first world. A health service in decline. An education system in disarray.

      We have retards everywhere that think its funny to put their names on everything new thats built (or are they ‘graffiti artists’).

      I drove to Wicklow – the most beautiful place on Earth if you want it to be and I looked down on Dublin with actual anger. Anger not because of what Dublin is but because of what it could have been. It could have been a Capital of the world. A Capital we could be proud of – but it is not. The reality is the Irish have failed at the most opportune time in our history. I am so disappointed I feel like emigating right now. We have achieve nothing. Is that down to Government – I dont know. I feel the Irish people in general wanted change but not enough change – a change in mentality. No chance.

      I am very disappointed and in fact angry because I know what could have been.

      Why has our country failed?

    • #788904
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Voter apathy and corrupt planning are to blame for the state of infrastructure and town/city planning in Ireland today I think.

    • #788905
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Well said Darkman. I know, as an Irishman you want to be proud of your capital city but what is therE to be proud of? I emigrated and thought about coming back home last year but in the end couldnt do it. We have had an opportunity over the last 10 -15 years to really put our country, indeed capital city on the map, as if to emphasise a new attitude / confidence but the bottom line, as you know, is we made a pigs ear out of it. Disappointed, angry, almost ashamed, all of these emotions sum up how I feel also. Emigrate, be proud to be Irish and come home in 15 years ( and hope for the best my friend )

    • #788906
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I think people are forgetting what a low base we came from. It makes me sick that people emigrate to countries that have had wealth for years and years, contribute nothing to the Irish economy, then whinge and moan about what they perceive as nothing been done because they don’t see a skyscraper in the docks. Grafitti? You want to see grafitti? – go to Rome. 100 times worse.
      Dublin is a great city, everyone who visits here thinks its a great city. its the whinger and moaners from Dublin who paint a dark cloud, not the tourists for the most part. The problem is the Irish believe it or not have an inate superiority complex, yes we do. We want the best..but we forget that Ireland was very very poor. People travel to London (which was building the tube while Ireland suffered from famine), Paris, Rome and expect Ireland to have an infrastructure in place over-night to match these countries which were never colonised and have populations over 60 million..yeah right. How many of these countries are partitioned and had no tourist economy for years due to the warring factions and perceived danger, what business would invest in such a place?
      Ireland is a conservative country now understandably, but a beautiful one at that. Its in the Irish nature to moan and whinge though, that is true. That is why so many worthwhile projects are blocked.
      Maybe its something to do with the weather, or maybe its the hangover effect.

      Hopefully that moany whingy nature will dissipate in time.

    • #788907
      admin
      Keymaster

      @johnfp wrote:

      Emigrate, be proud to be Irish and come home in 15 years ( and hope for the best my friend )

      The late Brian Lenihan once made a point that emmigrants were lucky to go and see new places and opportunities and he was slated for it.

      There are many fantastic opportunities outside Ireland both careerwise and culturally.

      My own view is that things were going well in Ireland 1994 – 2000 when returning emmigrants had influence and new ideas were emerging every second.

      Maybe its just me but sometime during 2000 we stopped analysing how money was being made and just looked at the numbers and those in control stopped listening to anything other than their own thoughts.

      The result is as described above a massive wasted opportunity.

      Yet one feels it is not all doom and gloom once we change government and the planning framework can be reformed and a proper transport put in place to support higher densities and taller buildings in appropriate places.

      Fupp all done a new beginning to do

    • #788908
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I’d agree that we could have done a lot better during the boom, but Dublin is one of the best cities in Europe. You only have to live in another country for a few years to appreciate Dublin for what it is. Every Spaniard, Pole, Brit that I’ve met here loves the place – it’s a vibrant changing city.

      We’ll see the city transforming in a big way over the next 20 years. As for highrise, there’s three in the pipe line. I think once they’re built, peoples’ attitudes will change and we should see more and more lagre scale developments approved. The metro and more tram lines will transform the city further, look at how successful the Red/Green line are.

    • #788909
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @Morlan wrote:

      I’d agree that we could have done a lot better during the boom, but Dublin is one of the best cities in Europe. You only have to live in another country for a few years to appreciate Dublin for what it is. Every Spaniard, Pole, Brit that I’ve met here loves the place – it’s a vibrant changing city.

      We’ll see the city transforming in a big way over the next 20 years. As for highrise, there’s three in the pipe line. I think once they’re built, peoples’ attitudes will change and we should see more and more lagre scale developments approved. The metro and more tram lines will transform the city further, look at how successful the Red/Green line are.

      I agree with your sentiments Morlan and altough i can be brought to the brink of emigration sometimes from having living in other countries (public transport is such a must for any large city – why it is not fast tracked makes my blood boil)- there are subtle changes here that elevate the city from what it once was – especially socially. I foresee huge changes in the infrastructure in the next decade or two and as long as we stick by our country and elect who we think is right to do a particular job then we will only ever be moaners! If you want to see shiny skyscrapers and metroes, go on holiday. If you want to see them here, stick around and keep the pressure on…

    • #788910
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      In reading Darkman’s opinion, I have to disagree with some of what he said. Sure, the infrastructural deficits are appalling, poor health service, lack of schools in the suburbs that desperately need them, urban sprawl gone out of control etc. However, surely there are more important things that dictate your happiness about where you want to live than buildings that are higher than 30 storeys or tunnels that fit supersize HGVs. Gleaming high-rises while beautiful to look at do not make you happy or give you a reason not to emigrate. 100s of 3rd world cities are littered with high-rises (Sao Paolo, Lagos, etc) but have acute poverty. High-rises are not even in the top 100 list of factors that make a country wealthy. Why would you say we have achieved nothing when we now have full employment and high disposable income. (top of the OECD whereas 20 years ago we were near the bottom). All our talent and 3rd level graduates are staying in the country now and are not forced to emigrate. I came from a family where nearly all my aunts, uncles and cousins and also my parents were forced to emigrate due to no jobs in Ireland. My parents returned but most of my relatives didn’t as they have since settled and married abroad. If they had the economic opportunities back then, they wouldn’t have been forced to leave Ireland. Our biggest problem or challenge as I see it is that our economic growth has happened too fast and that is why health, education and transport among other factors are not able to develop as fast.

      International surveys consistently rate the Irish as among the happiest in the world. Please take stock of what we do have and what makes us the envy of other nations (100000s of immigrants do not come here for no good reason!). So Ireland, while not perfect and surely has plenty of problems that need to be addressed, it most certainly has not failed.

    • #788911
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Well said.

    • #788912
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      One need only look at this evocative video from 1995, the very year Ireland was on the cusp of change, to recognise how far we’ve come.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRXWE7WGGgQ

    • #788913
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      The ninties looks so eighties.

    • #788914
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @PVC King wrote:

      ………………………once we change government and the planning framework can be reformed and a proper transport put in place to support higher densities and taller buildings in appropriate places.

      Fupp all done a new beginning to do

      Thats very interesting, do you think a change in government would actually make a diiference with fast tracking major pieces of (critical) infrasructure?
      Or is it maybe the actual system is the problem, where individuals can hold up project that will benefit the country as a whole
      At the risk of sounding like some kind of dictator, there should be a need to weigh things up and make decisions based on how they will benefit the nation, not how it will affect a few individuals.
      There should be cold hearted decision makers where national infastructure projects are concerned

      If Mr O Brians grocery store is in the way of a new metro stop(national road, important office complex etc..), then its adios Mr O’B

    • #788915
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I dunno ireland is rated pretty highly on the United nations list of desirable places to live. Sure it doesnt have the great weather, great food. great looking people of other countries but it could be worse it could be iraq….

      just joking on a more serious note i agree with the above poster about the changes ireland is less then 60 years old as a democracy and given its size its understandable we don’t have huge hulking skyscrapers or massive infrastructure just look at los angeles concrete hell..id hate for ireland to become anything like that.

      i think in terms of architectural layout things need to designed and implemented bearing in mind the image of ireland others have and the unique landscape. Its actually a good thing they are taking their time deciding on the few skyscrapers they are gonna add to the capital or it would look like hong kong which would be totally out of place in ireland. Think about it that way.

    • #788916
      admin
      Keymaster

      @paul h wrote:

      Thats very interesting, do you think a change in government would actually make a diiference with fast tracking major pieces of (critical) infrasructure?
      Or is it maybe the actual system is the problem, where individuals can hold up project that will benefit the country as a whole
      At the risk of sounding like some kind of dictator, there should be a need to weigh things up and make decisions based on how they will benefit the nation, not how it will affect a few individuals.
      There should be cold hearted decision makers where national infastructure projects are concerned

      If Mr O Brians grocery store is in the way of a new metro stop(national road, important office complex etc..), then its adios Mr O’B

      I genuinely do, there would certainly be a more balanced split between roads and public transport for starters.

      Of course there has been a lot more quantum of development in the past 15 years but I would strongly contend that this has been a macro gain as opposed to localised micro gains.

      Over 30% of residential units built are one off houses, probably another 40% are large housing estates in areas that are not ideal locations and would be rejected as locations in almost all other OECD countries.

      The next decade has to be about quality of life and infrastructural initiatives that are focussed on the existing population and not about growth for the sake of growth.

      The FF stated election policy that we need to create another 250,000 jobs and continue with the same development pattern would be humourous if they didn’t intend to actually do it.

      What Ireland needs right now is to take a step back realise that the workforce is already suffcient and provide the transport, health, education and communications systems to support the existing population to the same standards as you would expect in nordic countries.

      I am not racist but the idea of economic growth to accomodate 200,000 migrants from Eastern Europe does not appeal especially considering that a very small percentage of the population profit almost exclusively from the minimum wage and maximum rents that this section of society are offered.

    • #788917
      admin
      Keymaster

      yes but every bloody one of them are proposing massive tax cuts, so how any side will have sufficient funds given the moderating economy to provide us with the investment that we need is in question.

    • #788918
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      “We should have the tallest building in Europe by now”

      Why on earth should we have the tallest building? Tall by no means equates quality. Many of the most beautiful cities in Europe are built on a similiar scale to Dublin. Venice, Stockholm, Copenhagen, Amsterdam are all relatively low rise. Even Paris and Rome have virtually no high rises in their cores.

    • #788919
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      maybe the cranes will go up again for the development of the port into a proper high rise (400meter) finanical area. But I have to agree, what we have done so far is a disapointment.

    • #788920
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Darkman get a grip, for a start “the failure of Ireland” is nonsense,from the 1920’s through to the 1980’s I can agree with, but now we’re just another affluent EU state.

      Have you not read the article on here about the harmony of the quays being the essence of the town, well it’s true, take a walk from Grand canal basin to Heuston and back up the other side to the Point depot and if you’re not exhilirated and thrilled you haven’t looked very hard at what’s going on.

      Dublin has also got some of the meanest neighbourhoods close to the city center, the nastiset near derelict sites, most forbidding looking flats complexes I’ve come across in a European town, but that’s all part of the interesting mix, you know, all human life is there…..

    • #788921
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @Seanselon wrote:

      “We should have the tallest building in Europe by now”

      Why on earth should we have the tallest building? Tall by no means equates quality. Many of the most beautiful cities in Europe are built on a similiar scale to Dublin. Venice, Stockholm, Copenhagen, Amsterdam are all relatively low rise. Even Paris and Rome have virtually no high rises in their cores.

      Unlike those countries we have had the biggest economic growth in post war Europe. Im sorry but you should be disappointed. Check out asian countries and how they are getting on with similar growth rates.

    • #788922
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @Seanselon wrote:

      “We should have the tallest building in Europe by now”

      Why on earth should we have the tallest building?

      This is exactly the attitude im talking about. Its always why should we do this or why should we do that. Never why we can do that and we will. This is the problem.

      Its not your fault of course. Its an Irish thing. Whatever we do – make sure we build it too friggin small – thats the mentality.

    • #788923
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      should the title of this thread not be the failure of dublin ??
      Why is the success of ireland decided by whether Dublin has the tallest building in Europe:rolleyes:

    • #788924
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @vkid wrote:

      should the title of this thread not be the failure of dublin ??
      Why is the success of ireland decided by whether Dublin has the tallest building in Europe:rolleyes:

      Its not about whether Dublin has tall buildings or not – well actually it is in a way because it’s a sympthom of a strange attitude we have of thinking too small. It applys across the board from the airports to the roads. One only needs to look at the docklands to see what I mean. What a wasted opportunity.

    • #788925
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I salute your anger.

      What caused us to fail? Ourselves alone. Our failure to understand that we actually a country of our own to mind. Our very strange attitude to authority. Does it come from our history? It really is a huge handicap. Ducking and diving as the norm. Rules are to be bent to breaking point. An avoidance of personal social responsiblity and a tolerance of everyone else avoiding it cos they are just like us. A slave mentality. Twill do.

      Encapsulated in the notion fostered by An Taoiseach (a truly ironic title) that he is not in charge either – that he is only doing what he can to save his followers from nameless bad guys who are always up to trouble – today they might be medical consultants, yesterday lawyers, tomorrow teachers, next environmentalists. All very resentful, defensive and divisive really.

      No one is in charge. We live in a state of unrecognised anarchy. All our own work. So far anyway. Can we do better? Of course we can – if we really want to. Do we? Is there enough anger out there willing to shape something constructive?

    • #788926
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Darkman, you miss my point. My impression of your thinking is that, size is everything. Such places as Shanghai, KL even Dubai are emerging as high rise disasters. Even closer to home, Canary Wharf is a rather souless and bland high rise experiment.

      I’m not anti-skyscraper, but I think it is a mistake to build them simply for their own sake and certainly not overnight.

    • #788927
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @Seanselon wrote:

      Darkman, you miss my point. My impression of your thinking is that, size is everything. Such places as Shanghai, KL even Dubai are emerging as high rise disasters. Even closer to home, Canary Wharf is a rather souless and bland high rise experiment.

      I’m not anti-skyscraper, but I think it is a mistake to build them simply for their own sake and certainly not overnight.

      Im not arguing for Skyscrapers or to turn Dublin into Shanghai or anything like that. What im saying is we build too small. Even the most rose tinted spectacles of some contributers would see this is the case.

      RE: the previous poster. I dont think there is enough anger. The failure to make the most of the boom is down to a feckless attitude I dont think you actually see anywhere else on the planet. Maybe its a deep inferiority complex i.e ah sure were only Irish……..

    • #788928
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I’m sorry, but if you’re not arguing for skyscrapers why did you say “We should have the tallest building in Europe by now” in opening this thread?

    • #788929
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @Seanselon wrote:

      I’m sorry, but if you’re not arguing for skyscrapers why did you say “We should have the tallest building in Europe by now” in opening this thread?

      Yes I think I said that more tounge in cheek then anything else. My point being we are not ambitious enough in terms of physical infrastructure.

    • #788930
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @darkman wrote:

      Its not about whether Dublin has tall buildings or not – well actually it is in a way because it’s a sympthom of a strange attitude we have of thinking too small. It applys across the board from the airports to the roads. One only needs to look at the docklands to see what I mean. What a wasted opportunity.

      maybe! Ireland is tiny population wise in the grand scheme of things so you cant expect high rise all over the place just yet. there are lots of examples of poor planning i give you that, but in comaprison to where we were 10-15 years ago, we’ve come a long way. Have people such short memories that they have forgotten the Ireland of the 80’s and 90’s. I haven’t. The Docklands…what was that like before..a complete dump. Granted it is a bit souless, but so are parts of a lot of international cities. I am not a fan of the red light/pole area they’ve added there recently, I think it looks awfully tacky but thats only one part of a huge area that overall has a decent urban feel to the it. Its not perfect but its not woeful either (except for those red poles and tacky green lights).
      The constant moaning on this site about lack of high rise is tiresome at times. Its not the be all and end all of development Is this the benchmark people use now for how successful a city is, how tall its buldings are?
      I’m not a big fan of Dublin or large city life anywhere for that matter , for many reasons mainly traffic and cost but Dublin has a lot of character and sticking tall buildings everywhere would not really add to it imo.and much as many Dubliners wouldnt like to say it, Dublin is still a very small city compared to many in Asia, the US and Europe. I used to love Galway for its large irish town feel to it and thats been ruined in recent times by some god awful additions to the place. It has lost a lot of its soul by trying to be what it is not. It would be a shame for that to happen Dublin by trying to be something it is not…ie New York, Dubai, Taipeii or any other large high rise city
      Still think the thread title should be changed to Dublin as that what you are focusing on!

    • #788931
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      In that case I’ll take your assumption of The failure of Ireland as a rather throw away statement too.

    • #788932
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Originally posted by PVC KING
      I genuinely do, there would certainly be a more balanced split between roads and public transport for starters.

      Of course there has been a lot more quantum of development in the past 15 years but I would strongly contend that this has been a macro gain as opposed to localised micro gains.

      Over 30% of residential units built are one off houses, probably another 40% are large housing estates in areas that are not ideal locations and would be rejected as locations in almost all other OECD countries.

      The next decade has to be about quality of life and infrastructural initiatives that are focussed on the existing population and not about growth for the sake of growth.

      The FF stated election policy that we need to create another 250,000 jobs and continue with the same development pattern would be humourous if they didn’t intend to actually do it.

      What Ireland needs right now is to take a step back realise that the workforce is already suffcient and provide the transport, health, education and communications systems to support the existing population to the same standards as you would expect in nordic countries.

      I am not racist but the idea of economic growth to accomodate 200,000 migrants from Eastern Europe does not appeal especially considering that a very small percentage of the population profit almost exclusively from the minimum wage and maximum rents that this section of society are offered

      That actually does sound racist! So you think we’ve got a bit of money we should just pull up the ladder on anyone who wants to join us??
      What about having ambition to grow?
      That would be a nightmare scenario (to me) to think ‘ok thats it we’ve made enough now its time to take it easy’
      Is it not inherently human to want to grow, to create more?

      I agree with the one off issue , we need to be creating proper urban cores not housing estates
      Housing estates are not a sustainable way of living, and i think peoples quality of life improves if thety are living in urban type areas where you can actually walk to your local shops etc and not relying on your car to drive to the nearest superstore

      Darkman
      I fully agree we as a people do think smalltime in every aspect (except maybe our partying…)
      But failure i would definately not agree, a long way to go alright with necessary infrastructure.


      On the highrise subject (im getting a headache already)
      Please please stop comparing us (with a high rise or two) to hong kong or anywhere like it as cities like this have literally 1000’s of high rrises it would take a long time for us to look remotely similar!

      I fully believe it is not height but rather scale or footprint and i give you exhibit A
      Greenwich Village NYC
      [ATTACH]4807[/ATTACH]

      Miniature Skyscraper. Built on a house lot, this eleven story building refutes the misconception that tall buildings are inherently out of scale.

      With miniature skyscrapers, the increment of development remains small.
      When developers assemble large lots for sprawling, large-footprint blockbusters: that’s out of scale.
      Or imagine those four buildings, there at the end of the street, replaced by a one-story supermarket: that would be out of scale.
      NIMBYs, the enemy is not height.

      http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5113

    • #788933
      admin
      Keymaster

      Suggestion:
      Change existing outlandish thread title to:
      ‘failure of ireland to build skyscrapers

      Discuss:
      whether or not this actually constitutes the ‘failure’ of a nation.
      or maybe don’t bother, high rise is done to death, of course it does not.

    • #788934
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Look, im fed up with this so im going to put this in bold big letters:

      THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT HIGHRISE

      I dont know where that came from but it is not about skyscrapers.

      The premise of this thread is that we have failed as a country at our most opportune time. We will never again have the opportunities we have had. Obviously some are happy with what has been acheived. Your standards are VERY low.

      I would also like to add this is NOT just about Dublin (even though its the only real city on this island and is the driver of the economy) but considering Dublin is at the center of most things that happen here, of course its going to be singled out.

    • #788935
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      darkman what age are you and where are you from? Do you remember anything of the eighties/early nineties? I can. I couldn’t get a job stacking shelves in the local Dunnes Stores. Very tough times, very poor country.
      Its better now, a lot better. Its not perfect, but it has improved. Rather than pointing at the Luas or the M1or Dundrum Shopping Centre and saying “There you go, a few successes but a lot done, more to do” I take walks around Swords, Pavilions near where I live..Airside..or around the leafy suburbs around Ballsbridge, around Merrion Square, Stephens Green on a sunny day. Wicklow St. Dame St. Even Pearse is improving slowly. I remember the year 2000, the DDDA hoardings covering most of the docks, no Luas, no Euro, no Spire, no Sean O’Casey Bridge, no peace in the North. regarding the rest of the country I remember going to stay in Mayo and the road surfaces improving outside the Breaffy House Hotel and the air of optimism in the air. The immigration, people of all shapes and sizes.
      I think where you from is a factor on your opinions, I drive through Coolock and it hasn’t changed much from what I remember of it through the ages. Northside Shopping Centre still looks the same inside and out (though apparently its due a makeover). Some suburbs in Dublin and areas throughout the country have not improved and have been left behind by the Celtic Tiger, of that there is no doubt. I am still in Swords (which has grown immensely) without decent links to the city centre, but at least the Metro is planned. North City Centre has the old ‘charm’ around Talbot and Henry and Parnell St’s and some of th pubs near Croke Park look the same as they did in the fifties no doubt..but overall I think the last 10 years have been firstly about getting used to prosperity, and then seeing the improvements in some areas and not in others – hopefully in the next 10 years more of the prosperity will be rolled out to the masses overlooked the first time while improving public transport and city living. I don’t think the Celtic Tiger is dead just yet, don’t believe everything you hear in the media.

    • #788936
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @darkman wrote:

      I would also like to add this is NOT just about Dublin (even though its the only real city on this island and is the driver of the economy) but considering Dublin is at the center of most things that happen here, of course its going to be singled out.

      thats the kind of thinking that has caused many of the problems in Ireland and Dublin of today.

    • #788937
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I understood Darkman’s original post to mean that there’s very little built in the past decade that has much
      aesthetic merit. Any architects out there who have been in that famous Galway tent in the 10 years of this Government?

      For starters, there are far too many boring, ugly apartment blocks, many gated to remove them from any possibility of developing as an integral part of their local community.

      Zoe Developments didn’t have a monopoly on engineer-designed blocks of small one-bed apartments. The quays upriver from O’Connell Bridge are populated with such blocks. It was a Dublin tradition to have tenements in the city centre. So all nostalgia buffs, just give it a couple of years and these blocks will fulfil the same function.

      Build in haste, repent at leisure.

    • #788938
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @Seanselon wrote:

      “We should have the tallest building in Europe by now”

      Why on earth should we have the tallest building? Tall by no means equates quality. Many of the most beautiful cities in Europe are built on a similiar scale to Dublin. Venice, Stockholm, Copenhagen, Amsterdam are all relatively low rise. Even Paris and Rome have virtually no high rises in their cores.

      Dublin is no comparison to Venice, which has a far more exhuberant historical building stock. Bar Amsterdam, which has it’s canals, as a Joe Soap, what do you think of when you think of Stockholm or Copenhagen; what do you instantly imagine?. … Nothing exactly!, precisely, except the little mermaid sculpture.

      The Darkman is right. The Dublin Docklands could have been a lot more visually exciting. It is a rather straight jacketed and conservative development. It is only now that the DDDA are trying to jazz it with planning permisssion granted for the U2 tower and the Point Depot tower. More signature buildings could have been incorporated into the overall scheme and should have been built by now. As I have said before when it comes to architecture and the arts we are extremely conservative here in Ireland when compared to our neighbour Britain. We, who like to class ourselves as the big drinkers and party animals when compared to the stuffy tea total stiff upper lip British. When they had their boom in the 80’s they got signature architecture from the likes of local greats such as Richard Rogers and Norman Foster as well as many a renowned foreign architect. With this came a thriving art scene as well. Since then Britain has flourished with signature architecture not only in London but throughout the country. Wembley Stadium the latest addition to London. (What would we do without the GAA and CrokePark, at least they showed initiative and vision.)
      As what the Darkman said regarding our Celtic Tiger boom and architecture here, all we seemed to have got are acres of overpriced undersized houses and appartments and roads with roundabouts and traffic lights.

      Regarding the paltry state of the country from which we came, as what the Denouncer said, it is true, we have come a long way, considering we had SFA to start with. But that does not excuse our conservatism when it comes to the arts and architecture. It is so bad that it is like the time when the Catholic Church had control of and a say about everyone’s lives here.

    • #788939
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Probably need a younger breed now at this stage to wash away the cobwebs and move away from the conservative past. The younger breed are registered with Archiseek of course.

    • #788940
      admin
      Keymaster

      @GregF wrote:

      When they had their boom in the 80’s they got signature architecture from the likes of local greats such as Richard Rogers and Norman Foster as well as many a renowned foreign architect. With this came a thriving art scene as well. Since then Britain has flourished with signature architecture not only in London but throughout the country. Wembley Stadium the latest addition to London. (What would we do without the GAA and CrokePark, at least they showed initiative and vision.) .

      The 1980’s in London delivered Lloyds and little else it really was mid to late 90’s before standards improved beyond bland pension fund spec development to owner occupier spec. The outlook os certainly better than the backdrop.

      @GregF wrote:

      As what the Darkman said regarding our Celtic Tiger boom and architecture here, all we seemed to have got are acres of overpriced undersized houses and appartments and roads with roundabouts and traffic lights.

      Regarding the paltry state of the country from which we came, as what the Denouncer said, it is true, we have come a long way, considering we had SFA to start with. But that does not excuse our conservatism when it comes to the arts and architecture. It is so bad that it is like the time when the Catholic Church had control of and a say about everyone’s lives here.

      Can we please leave the Church out of this, bottom line pre 1995 Ireland architecturally was driven by cost concerns and low rental levels impeding the ability of developers to build attractive buildings aimed at higher end occupiers.

      What happened next was that the DOE did not issue proper guidelines compelling developers to raise design standards.

      The AIG building on the corner of North Wall Quay and Guild St sums it all up for me

      You can throw in most of Cork St as well

    • #788941
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @darkman wrote:

      Look, im fed up with this so im going to put this in bold big letters:

      THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT HIGHRISE

      I dont know where that came from but it is not about skyscrapers.

      The premise of this thread is that we have failed as a country at our most opportune time. We will never again have the opportunities we have had. Obviously some are happy with what has been acheived. Your standards are VERY low.

      I would also like to add this is NOT just about Dublin (even though its the only real city on this island and is the driver of the economy) but considering Dublin is at the center of most things that happen here, of course its going to be singled out.

      Firstly its a long process and there has only been realy wealth here for the past 12+ years and we are starting from a very low base as regards infrastructure,Some of the former communist block countries have tram/transport systems that we can only dream of here.
      Be patient !

      Dublin is not the only real city on this island and unfortunatly has ALL of the hassles of a big city and very few of the conveniences.Its a work in progress as with all great cities.Belfast is a great city albeit with an English municipal feel to it and Cork is a fantastic city with a great central core and a very continental feel.
      Galway has great people and potential as a real Irish City but the place is being ruined by poor infrastructure and unsightly developments.

      Dublin is only being singled out because of lost opportunities but who was to foresee the Celtic Tiger economy ?

      Hang in there as there are great projects in the pipeline for Dublin of a very high standard.

      I also read somewhere that the Cork pharma industrial base is on of the main drivers of this economy.

    • #788942
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @PVC King wrote:

      The 1980’s in London delivered Lloyds and little else it really was mid to late 90’s before standards improved beyond bland pension fund spec development to owner occupier spec. The outlook os certainly better than the backdrop.

      Can we please leave the Church out of this, bottom line pre 1995 Ireland architecturally was driven by cost concerns and low rental levels impeding the ability of developers to build attractive buildings aimed at higher end occupiers.

      What happened next was that the DOE did not issue proper guidelines compelling developers to raise design standards.

      The AIG building on the corner of North Wall Quay and Guild St sums it all up for me

      You can throw in most of Cork St as well

      Yes, but we have Britain as an example to look back at in hindsight today. Look at what has happened in Britain since. Throw in Berlin as well.
      Do you not agree as I have said that attitudes in Ireland toward architecture and the arts are generally a lot more conservative to those of Britain (England).

    • #788943
      admin
      Keymaster

      Social structures are very similar as are the resultant attitudes.

      The diffrence between the two are that progressive local authorities like Westminster and The City have more influence over government than vice versa. Hence the better built environment.

      Berlin is probably a better example as the germans are more technical generally and municipal authorities are permitted to take on larger debt burdens.

      Base line you can build literally anything in Ireland once its low enough

    • #788944
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Its probrably also that we have had poor government by any standards. The stench of corruption is literally all over West Dublin. Ironically the parties in government are the very ones I tought were most progressive. Its disappointing to see so much missed opportunity. What has happened to the metro now even:confused:

    • #788945
      admin
      Keymaster

      Darkman you sound like your world has fallen asunder.
      Metro north is out for Procurement, results of which are scheduled for this summer.
      Agreed that projects in Ireland take a long time, everything is consensus based, a reflection of the main party in power.

    • #788946
      admin
      Keymaster

      Metro North should be the Middle of the three proposed underground lines.

      DoT are the only ones out of step with the general consensus on that!

      Where is the damn interconnector?

      Reason for edit: Thought you meant Metro West – Which given the Minister for Transport in question could equally have been chosen First 😮

    • #788947
      admin
      Keymaster

      i would have thought metro west should be last on the list ?

    • #788948
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Alarms bells go off in my head when I think of the current transport system or even the proposed Transport (21)plan.
      Yes, we have achieved a lot: Foreign Investment/Highly Skilled-Educated Workforce/Low Unemployment the list goes on but Darkman makes some serious points that hit home to a lot of people I have talked to. How long do you think we can remain competitive with the current infrastructure in place and attract a highly skilled workforce from other nations or foreign investment (that appears to be moving eastwards).

      The old argument that we are not used to having money or, we are small country don’t really wash with me for three reasons:
      • Watch Eastern European countries getting there act together (with harsh and brutal history that compete with ours)
      • We have screwed up so many small projects in the past (Port Tunnel), we all know damn well that any future projects will be fraught with schedule/budget overruns (and we will accept that)

      Solution: I feel projects like this should be assigned to the Japanese or German Transport Planners and people made accountable for delays and spirally costs. Contractors in Germany for instance would never be allowed get away with a Port Tunnel type fiasco.

      Someone said once, what do you have to show for 10-15 years economic growth: a spike in the middle and a slow train set that does not even connect in the middle that no one asked for’ … jokes aside, this comment isn’t really too far fetched for my ears.

    • #788949
      admin
      Keymaster

      The Port tunnel was the largest infrastructural project ever undertaken in this state, its construction was far from fiasco but was marred with the usual media mud slinging loaded with inaccuracies. The project was NOT over budget.

      Reasonably objective appraisal here:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_port_tunnel

    • #788950
      Anonymous
      Inactive
      GregF wrote:
      Dublin is no comparison to Venice, which has a far more exhuberant historical building stock. Bar Amsterdam, which has it’s canals, as a Joe Soap, what do you think of when you think of Stockholm or Copenhagen]

      I only compared the scale of Venice to Dublin in the context of this thread. Please odnt misrepresent me.

    • #788951
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I think it’s funny that the people who have been complaining about the failure of Ireland, claiming that it’s the nations fault for not thinking big, for not building big and for generally having a superiority complex (while somehow at the same time having an inferiority complex) are the very people who have the most negative attitudes.
      There has been a phenomenal amount of money wasted in the last decade by the government and there has been a lot of corruption and dubious development. This is not the fault of the population or the institution of government. Ireland has changed immensely in the last 15 years. If you wish to guage change purely on the basis of what infrastructural projects have been completed and when, they you’re always going to be disappointed. Not because Ireland cannot bring such projects to completion, but because they are a slow process. Rome wasn’t built in a day. The real and positive changes made in the working environment, in employment in general, in science and engineering, R&D and so on, these are the areas where progress is much less obvious, yet crucially important.

      Anyone who thinks that Dublin should be the most important city in Europe is really living in a fantasy land. It’s great to aspire to be the best, but it’s important to have a realistic vision for Ireland. We are a small country, with a small population. We’ve achieved great things and we will go on to do so, but don’t for a moment become so arrogant as to think that we are the be all and end all. Humility is part of the reason Irish businesses have been so successful abroad.

    • #788952
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      darkman,

      are you living in the same country as me? This is ireland everything is done small here and wrongly too. Its the attitude the entire country has and will always have a small minded one about change under any circumstances its a very conservative country in many regards. I mean comon look at our military even we don’t even have jet fighters to protect our country because we think ahhh sure someone else will do it for us.

      Its the same kind of lazy attitude that has the politicians coming around to the door every year to ask you to vote for them so they can get their yearly wage, they don’t actually care about you and aren’t gonna do anything they claim they will except come back next year when they want their wages again.

      Thats the way this country is and that translates even into the construction industry in ireland. So its no wonder we don’t have highrises in this country people are small minded self obsessed and usually only do things 20 to 30 years after the rest of the world has done it.

      Simple as that..

    • #788953
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      What an extraordinarily negative attitude.
      I’d love to round up the small group of (I suspect) very young moaners and high-rise fetishists on these pages and send them back in a time machine to 1987. Our genertaion has dragged this country and this city out of the shite and and made it world-class in a very short space of time and we should be proud of it. Yes, the planning system is very slow, and it’s still a work in progress in a lot of areas, notably transport infrastructure. But nearly everything is improving. Show me a perfect country anyway.
      We used to be great at beating ourselves up, some people obviously still are. They really should emigrate because most Irish people have had enough of that crap.

    • #788954
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      2 questions re darkman’s original post

      The biggest turn-off for me about living in Ireland (speaking as someone who doesn’t but is about to) is the complete obsession with the place. What generates the mindset of constant self-examination, introspection and comparison with other nations? It’s all very early 20th century. In an incredibly globalised world we are – whether we care or not – completely linked to the rest of the world, and the decisions we make have impacts far beyond comfy national boundaries. Surely decisions we make should be weighed up globally, in an international context? Surely we should make decisions about what type of cities to build based on what the best thing to do is, rather than based on ideas of a very localised national pride? Why does all of this discussion have to focus on Ireland? If we put things in a broader international context we might conclude that building a load of high rises in a medium sized historical European city for no apparent economic reason might not be appropriate (and worse might be no more than the architectural equivalent of pouring money into a big fancy f***-off SUV)?

      The second, coming out of the first, is what your criteria for ‘failure’ and success might be? Is it a success if Dublin get s a slew of great iconic high rises designed by internationally acclaimed architects if the carbon emissions contribute to climate change which, for example, might displace communities in poorer countries on the front line of sea level rise? I find it very constraining to limit thinking to a localised view.

      Why should be building in order to keep up with the rest of the industrialised west?

      We know that the richer countries (of which Ireland is now one) are selfishly splurging resources in a spectacularly wasteful manner which is starting to have impacts we can now see looming in the near future. On all the graphs I see of carbon emissions, temperature rise, declining biodiversity or fish stocks etc. the eighties appear as a now unattainable nirvana of lower environmental impact compared to now. What is the point of advocating accelerated local building? Surely we have better stuff to do? In the words of the American environmental author Edward Abbey “growth for growth’s sake is the ideology of the cancer cell”.

      If I seem to be ranting about the environment it’s not because I am a green activist, it’s because I work in the field of urban design and environmental issues increasingly affect almost every aspect of every decison we have to make. I’ve been listening to this year’s BBC Reith lectures by the American economist Jeffrey Sachs which really put things in a global context. The outlook sounds a bit scary but he really outlines the ways that policy and investment need to go to start doing something to turn the situation around:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/reith2007/

    • #788955
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      ‘this genertaion has dragged this country and this city out of the shite and and made it world-class in a very short space of time and we should be proud of it’

      ahh no its called low corporation tax and education policies put in place in the 1970’s. Watch ireland fall apart when the mutlinationals move out and the building industry slows down which is the main economic factor behind growth in ireland.

      Also whats so world class about ireland? Of course every nationality thinks his country is worldclass but lets be honest ireland is far from world class in terms of infrastructure. Ireland doesn’t have indegenious industrys that make it world class apart from guinness….

      If you look at a country like sweden norway or switzerland comparing similar size countries in europe they are miles ahead. Sweden owns saab and motorola and builds its own stealth submarines and military griffen fighter planes..

    • #788956
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I don’t believe this.

      Why is building stealth submarines good? Would you be happy if we were like the US, spending more on defence than the rest of the world combined (not to mention spending $275 million a day on a catastrophically mismanaged, probably illegal war)? Now there’s impressive spending. They must be winners.

      Why compare with other countries? What constitutes success?

    • #788957
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Having a country people actually want to live in is a start… this wasn’t the case till recently.
      Education policies didn’t create the boom – sure weren’t we educating people for export for most of the 20th century?

    • #788958
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I believe the last decade has been about quantity over quality, especially in the housing market. However we have proved there’s more to this country than Glenroe, Eurovision, and Guinness. It’s a start, but the infrastructural deficit has the potential to cripple us. We have been governed atrociously by FFPD whereby economy always outweighed society. A bit more vision, especially at the local level would be nice.

    • #788959
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I fully agree, but do we decide what to build because we want to be as ‘successful’ as our neighbours or because we want to do the right thing?

      Taking the number of tall buildings or roads or jet fighters as an indicator of success sounds ludicrous to me. We are not going to dig our way out of the environmental hole Europe is in just by building more. The problem with the M50 is not the road, it’s the record levels of car use. The problem with the port tunnel is not it’s height, it’s that a powerful transport industry is using more and bigger vehicles instead of more sustainable alternatives. We need better ideas than bigger tunnels. It reminds me of the Henry Ford quote about inventing the mass produced car – “if I had asked my customers what they wanted they’d have said a faster horse”.

      We have to think creatively and think outside national boundaries. Obsessing endlessly about ourslves in relation to other countries is an irrelevance which gets in the way and smacks of small country syndrome. And put in the context of issues in say India (with a population of 100 million plus), it really is kind of irrelevant to the global situation. Nobody else cares. All that verbage could be put to better use focussing on problem solving. We need good ideas and good designs and it doesn’t matter if they are Irish or not. This isn’t school – there may be missed opportunities but that doesn’t mean we have failed, it means we have to work harder. Don’t focus on whether we have as many roads as France, focus on what we can do to improve the planet and help the 90% or so of the earth’s population who have nothing anywhere near the lifestyle we do.

    • #788960
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I don’t believe this.

      Why is building stealth submarines good? Would you be happy if we were like the US, spending more on defence than the rest of the world combined (not to mention spending $275 million a day on a catastrophically mismanaged, probably illegal war)? Now there’s impressive spending. They must be winners.

      Why compare with other countries? What constitutes success?

      Lol funny that darkman was pointing out the failure to think big about things. I think its intringed in the irish mentality as evidenced by your awnser. Why bother having a military then ? in fact lets not bother having the police either sure who needs them eh? why indeed when we can get others to defend our country thats it theyll come to our rescue…..

      Its this mentality that has our armed services in a state where they are the biggest joke of europe. And people like you then claim sure the money would be better spent on the homeless or big grand wastes of money like the dublin port tunnel. Yeah…i think that was darkman’s point all along….small mindedness of irish will never change.

    • #788961
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      thinking in small terms is limiting to any country. Ireland always thinks small about things is inward looking and a conservative place. Sure we have great economic growth but it’s all a facade. Whats it based on nothing more then foreign investment and a building industry which feeds off that and shoody planning practices and a corrupt governement.

      We are obsessed by money and wealth now and we haven’t done anything of note during our so called economic granduer which is mainly driven by the usa. I think thats what darkman feels aggrieved by and i agree with him.

      The point im making is that this is born of a mentality of small mindnesses and lack of will to change and be brave about things but as long as people’s pockets are being lined in this country and johnny mcintee is happy with his lot in life and his drinking session on a friday night all is well in….

      So

    • #788962
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I think we are actually agreeing, we are just talking at cross-purpose.

      I am not against any particular kind of spending. Military is OK – whatever turns you on. I have a problem with making decisions based on a complete obsession with how Ireland is seen abroad and an erroneous assumption about other countries automatically being better. If you are so interested in other countries, I guarantee you that discussion about major decisions in say Sweden does not centre on trying to be like everyone else, it is focussed on what is the best thing to do regardless of everyone else.

      Their national strategy for oil independence by 2020 is an example. Something they managed to think up all by themselves, considering the global strategic situation and then deciding to do it:

      http://www.sweden.gov.se/content/1/c6/06/70/96/7f04f437.pdf

      Of course our own policy thinking is following along, as ever based on a good idea someone else had:

      http://iiea.com/images/managed/events_attachments/Towards%20an%20Oil%20Free%20Economy%20in%20Ireland-1.pdf

      Knowing the bit I know about Sweden, I’m certain that the discussion didn’t centre on how great other countries are, but on what they needed to do that other countries aren’t doing.

      It’s this obsession with “Ireland-Ireland-Ireland-yadda-yadda-yadda-why-can’t-we-be-like-Germany/UK/Sweden/whoever-moan-moan” that gets me down. It’s time we grew up, got over it and got the job done. Time’s a-wasting.

    • #788963
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Darkman, I love your passionate diatribe aginst what you see as a wasted opportunity. I am concerned about the quality of the development of Ireland. I came to live here in 98 and have seen big changes on a daily basis. I recently visited China and and the main cities including the largest in the world Chong Ching (40 million if u include the suburbs) and Beijing which is the size of Belgium. I came back with a kind of empty feeling after trying to come to terms with and endless sea of skyscrapers and isolated people iliving n the sky. I live in Cork where I am so lucky. My neighbours know my and my partners names. They greet us and chat about allsorts. Its a real community. Have architects forgotten about the social aspect of their grand designs? I prefer low rise cities and of course a few tall buildings are welcome. Unfortunately there is a builder in Cork who wants to dump his big lego set lacking any artistic merit on the river Lee. Not if me and my lovely neighours can help it!

    • #788964
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      the solution to a deep inferiority complex isn’t to try and emulate other bigger counties (with drastically bigger populations than us requiring much higher density)

      what is needed is an irish solution to an irish problem. it would only continue a tradition of inferiority to look elsewhere to find the answers.

    • #788965
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      As G.B.Shaw once said ..
      “The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who haven’t got it.”

      I agree with Darkman. We have failed. I think he makes some very valid points. It was a missed opportunity, we are still failing to take advantage of. Part of the failure was not any inherent Irish gene, its base human behavior, power, corruption and lies have certainly cost us dearly (although they did give us a great album from New Order 🙂 ). Id argue we did in fact change our mentality , but then Id ask why (?) , maybe we tried to change it too much, Why did we need to change, could we not have retained our own identify whilst managing sustainable growth. Did architects need to embrace their European experience and transplant it here, could they not have evolved their own Irish school, as many Irish designers and artists did during the Arts+Crafts movement.

      And as someone who lived through the 80s and did indeed face the Berlin, Boston or dole dilemma ( took the dole) I feel qulified to speak on this. Actually it wasn’t as bad as people make out and part of the problems at the time were caused by certain individuals via illegal,corrupt and immoral practices handsomely lining their own pockets at the expense of the workers . Still goes on but we care less as the working class have evolved to a middle class.

      Those who blather on that we should be grateful Ireland and the Irish people only now takes their place at the top table with other nations should revisit their history books. We have a glorious history of achievements in science, mathematics, design, literature, philosophy that pre-dates a few cute cailins from Dundalk and some tap dancing buachail from Michigan… granted we have had some great achievements in recent decades but that’s nothing new. What is new is that we had opportunity for even greater and more whole scale achievements but we passed on all that for some tempered glass and a bit of wood facade.

    • #788966
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I agree – I am devastated by thinking about missed opportunities.

      It’s just that I don’t think tall buildings, bigger tunnels, bigger motorway junctions, submarines or fighter jets are particularly creative ideas. Grands Projets are so over.

      Why not say something like “we will make Dublin the world’s first carbon neutral capital by 2020”. Now that’s an interesting propositon. Can I be the only person who thinks that “We will have some tall buildings just like our European neighbours” sounds lame by comparison?

      In fairness to Ireland (govt and people both) the short termism can maybe be blamed on the fact that no-one could tell how long the boom would last. If in 1997 you said that the boom which was a couple of years old by then would last 10 years, there would have been a lot of scepticism. There would certinaly not been enough evidence to go planning hugely ambitious projects. The last tiem that was done was in the late 70s when Fianna Fail promised full emplyment based on some seriously over optimistic economic models, kicking off a disastrous recession that lasted nearly 20 years.

    • #788967
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Well at least the M50 is getting proper sphagetti junctions at last. That project seems to be the most optimistic ongoing atm which is not saying much.

    • #788968
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Great.

    • #788969
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Why not say something like “we will make Dublin the world’s first carbon neutral capital by 2020”. Now that’s an interesting propositon. Can I be the only person who thinks that “We will have some tall buildings just like our European neighbours” sounds lame by comparison?

      Ahh no but pretty close. What are you working for the green party or something? And the whole carbon neutral capital thing lol…comon how realistic would it be for irish people to suddenly say hey i know lets all chip in for the environment have you actualy seen the state of streets in urban areas in ireland the county council don’t even clean litter up after people.

      I walk out every day and see mountains of litter on the street and say to myself irish people dont even have enough self respect to clean up after themselves how the hell would they ever take the lead on something. Its all about self respect the whole building big having a military to defend the country, it’s all about self respect if you don’t respect your country or where your heading then imo talking about grand architectural projects seems like pie in the sky.

      And as for not being an irish trait i lived in japan and the usa and they would never litter the streets after themselves even in europe (except the u.k) people have too much pride in their area to do that.
      I do believe its an irish thing the mindset. Living on the periphery of europe never having to defend anything and being neutral?? whatever that means…means we have become lazy and self centered.

      Hopefully the younger generation will change things..

    • #788970
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @JL wrote:

      Great.

      Yes it is and we need more of this sort of inititive. Do you work for the Green party?

    • #788971
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Why – do you have to work for the green party to care about the environment? If that’s the case we’re in bigger trouble than I thought. tfarmer you’re right, you win, I give up.

    • #788972
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @JL wrote:

      Why – do you have to work for the green party to care about the environment?

      In a word – yes.

    • #788973
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      no but how is dublin going carbon neutral going to save the enviroment in any way the major polluters in the world are the usa china and india all with populations over 300 million. Seems like that would be just paying lip service to the environmental issue.

      Ireland emissions aren’t even worth talking about they would have very little effect on the environment. Be realistic…. and my point was if irish people dont even care to pick litter up which is a more immediate concern for the ‘environment’ why would carbon emissions matter.

      How about real policies worth talking about and worth doing.

    • #788974
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      JL I like the idea, I think its brilliant, proves my point your following a long line of Irish people making the initial breakthrough in concept.Making Dublin a “carbon neutral capital ” gets my vote, I like it, may not be achieveable but its a worthy pursuit. It would be even nicer if you were thinking make IRELAND Carbon neutral but then its easy to forget about the rest of the country theres only a couple of million of us culchies sure what would we know about such things as carbon neutral, and CFCs is that Carlow football Club.;-)
      tfarmer – ..hasnt Gordon Brown just proposed 5 eco cities for Britain and you do know theres a difference between the Labour Party and the Greens ? I live in Ameirca and I dont know where you lived when you were here but my neighbourhood is disgusting with trash as are lots of other parts Ive been to, far worse than any O’Connell st in any town in Irl.

      Now that we have established our nations and our leaders in all social spheres, abject failure to realise potential and wasted oppurtunity , be interesting to hear what other ideas people have.
      Developing nations and even some developed nations look to Ireland as an exemplary nation rising from the ashes of the dark ages ’80s, now that we have their attention aims like ‘carbon neutral’ cities might sway them in that direction too.
      In the words of a great econmist, “Ireland has forgotten that the economy is there to serve society, society is not there to serve the economy”.

    • #788975
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Can’t really claim any credit – this sort of thing is becoming common currency these days internationally:

      China
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dongtan

      Abu Dhabi
      http://www.bdonline.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=725&storycode=3086598&c=1&encCode=00000000012fe35c

      London
      http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/environment/climate-change/

      But I do apologise for being Dublin-ocentric.

      Darkman – isn’t it amazing that the Communist Party of China and even the Tory party in England (when even the Tories are talking about the environment you know it must be something to worry about) are talking about these things, and yet if you talk about it in an architecture forum in Ireland you’re branded as some sort of whacked out green activist.

    • #788976
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @JL wrote:

      isn’t it amazing that the Communist Party of China and even the Tory party in England (when even the Tories are talking about the environment you know it must be something to worry about) are talking about these things, and yet if you talk about it in an architecture forum in Ireland you’re branded as some sort of whacked out green activist.

      Which, to an extent, brings us back to that question of why we have so much self analysis. I think there simply is a question – why are we so crap? How is the rest of the world clued in to climate change while we’re saying ‘oh, that’ll never catch on here’.

      I think part of the problem is that so much of our economic growth is simply foriegn firms coming in to avail of a tax break. That means Irish people haven’t contributed much to the strategic decisions that put money in our pockets. So we end up a bit like the Hobbits.

      My own conclusion, based on much fretting over our national capacity to shit on our own doorstep, is simply that Irish people are stupid and ignorant. I’m merely advancing this as a hypothesis – but I find it explains pretty much anything that you might mention about what’s wrong with Ireland.

    • #788977
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      We have digressed a bit from Darkmans original posting (no not the high rises in Dublin one!) .
      But to take Schuhart up on something he said

      Which, to an extent, brings us back to that question of why we have so much self analysis. I think there simply is a question – why are we so crap? How is the rest of the world clued in to climate change while we’re saying ‘oh, that’ll never catch on here’.

      Self Analysis is a good thing, the unexamined life is the unlived one. You’re the one that’s ignorant in fact not the Irish people. If you knew anything about Carbon footprints you would know that Ireland actually ranks very low in the table of developed nations regarding our footprint and biocapacity. So while we may not be at the forefront of discussing it or as JL says if you raise the topic you’re labeled a loony tree -hugger, we are also a developed nation which is not actually responsible for all that much climate change.
      Other more progressive nations might be talking about it more, well they should be after all they are the culprits. Still as JL says its another opportunity for us to lead the way, maybe if the 3 beatitudes Bertie, Bono and Bob get together we can rally other nations behind making Dublin an example of a carbon neutral ‘crapital’ city.

      Getting back to Darkmans original intent .. Irelands architectural and urban design failures are not unique.. some people believe we have learned the wrong lessons from modernism, I posted this elsewhere..
      Nathan Glazer : From A Cause to a Style – Modernists Architecture’s Encounter with the American City
      He is Professor Emeritus of Sociology and Education at Harvard University.
      Good book , recommended reading for those want to describe themselves as architects. Much of what the author contends can be applied to the recent developments in Ireland and the failures of our ‘Starchitects’ to engage with society and the surroundings in their work.
      He argues (very successfully) that today’s leading architects learned the wrong lessons from modernism’s mistakes, and need to re-engage with the life of cities
      “I’m talking about people who were thinking about how to create a better city,” Glazer says. And from that important conversation, Glazer says, architects have been missing.

      in my own opinion we came to a fork in the road post-war, one path lead to the Bauhaus – modernist de-constructionism movement, the other lead the way of the Arts+Crafts. Obviously its easier to make/design a Wassily chair than a MacKintosh one… so like lemmings designers and architects pushed the envelope down the Weimar modernistic path constantly de-constructing the plane…and we never looked back or had the resolve to break away from that.

    • #788978
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Mick, thanks for posting that. It really does look of significant interest.

    • #788979
      Anonymous
      Inactive
      mickletterfrack wrote:
      You&#8217]Reflect on what you are saying here. You are agreeing that Irish people generally don’t have much of a clue about climate change, and then trying to relate the general ignorance that you’ve identified in some way to Ireland not being a major polluter. In a statement that you start by saying You’re the one that’s ignorant in fact not the Irish people.

      Would you like to try making your point again? I promise not to raise the small matter of climate change being a global matter and the idea that the rest of the world will see no reason why Ireland shouldn’t go on burning oil to be the band while they fundementally restructure their lives. After all, we’re harmless, fun loving Hobbits and everyone loves Hobbits. That’s why we always do so well at Eurovision.

      I’ll be happy if you just manage to make a coherent statement along the lines ‘Irish people are ignorant about climate change, but of course if you look at it in purely national terms we’re not a big part of the problem. Hence, if you could tow Ireland off onto another Earth-like planet someone in the Crab Nebula, they’d have no reason to take an interest.’

    • #788980
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I’m a little bit lost here….

      I thought we were talking about two separate issues. One is self-examination, which is good but I think if it goes too far it becomes self-absorption and gets in the way of ever actually looking at things objectively and doing something.

      The other is about what we are trying to achieve and not missing opportunities. My view is that we should be looking 50 years into the future (designing for climate change, a post-carbon economy and aiming for the best and most elegant technological and ecological urban and architectural designs) and not 50 years into the past (a world where high rises and fly-overs are the Next Big Thing).

    • #788981
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @JL wrote:

      One is self-examination, which is good but I think if it goes too far it becomes self-absorption and gets in the way of ever actually looking at things objectively and doing something.

      Absolutely. We’re all in favour of that, so there’s probably little need to discuss that any further. @JL wrote:

      The other is about what we are trying to achieve and not missing opportunities. My view is that we should be looking 50 years into the future (designing for climate change, a post-carbon economy and aiming for the best and most elegant technological and ecological urban and architectural designs) and not 50 years into the past (a world where high rises and fly-overs are the Next Big Thing).

      I think your suggestion is apt and relevant. Others seem more convinced by the idea that, as Ireland is not a big net polluter, we can forget about all that and build all the high rises and fly-overs that we like. I’d love to stay and talk, only my Lamborghini Diablo Roadster awaits.

    • #788982
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Id like to have kept to the original thread kept our egos and sensitivities out of this and not argue semantics.
      Jaysus what is it with some people on this forum … you say Ireland isnt responsible for global warming and suddenly your quoted as saying your in favour of high rises and flyovers…
      I wasnt implying we shouldnt take an interest in fact I did say its an oppurtunity for Ireland to once again lead the way and Id argue as we historicaly werent a major polluter we should not have to shoulder an inbalance in responsibility, but I never said we should run riot with our emissions. Besides by your logic the yak farmer in Mogolia with a carbon footprint in the +200 range should be condemed for his ignorance too. Sure the Germans, French , mainland europeans are more educated about re-cycling (big deal) have been doing it for years and are shocked when they see us thrash our little Dannone actimels.. but heh we still come in way under the radar as regards which one of us is impacting climate change the most. Its a bit like the old buying indulgences from the papacy, or like Al Gore would argue he buys carbon credits in the African savannah to offset his huge electricity bill, 24×7 heated indoor swiming pool etc , so his footprint is balanced and ignorant paddy is to blame cos he doesnt know what his footprint is. Im not going to stand by and let someone take some kind of educated high-ground calling Irish people ignorant. Id prefer to be ignorant and not-recyling with low emissions than educated recycling but with a high-carbon footprint.
      Can we get back to solving Irelands urban design failings now…Get the whole nation behind a grand concept of an eco city, improve design and cut down emmissions two birds with one quill.

    • #788983
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @mickletterfrack wrote:

      Id like to have kept to the original thread kept our egos and sensitivities out of this and not argue semantics.

      I think we can do all that. I won’t even argue the semantics of exactly how many different statement you’ve mixed up in that single statement, or we’ll be up the creek without being able to see the wood for the trees. @mickletterfrack wrote:

      by your logic the yak farmer in Mogolia with a carbon footprint in the +200 range should be condemed for his ignorance too.

      In fairness, you were more overreacting to the use of the word ‘ignorant’. If you were a Mongolia yak farmer reading the statement you’ve just made, the equivalent response would be for you to say ‘well I think you’re ignorant and very fat too’. @mickletterfrack wrote:

      .Im not going to stand by and let someone take some kind of educated high-ground calling Irish people ignorant.

      I’m not taking any high ground. I’m not excluding myself from the statement. @mickletterfrack wrote:

      Id prefer to be ignorant and not-recyling with low emissions than educated recycling but with a high-carbon footprint.

      And I’m proud to be an Oki from Muskogee. But the point is surely that ignorance means you won’t know whether you’re doing harm or not, so the low emission status is purely accidental. Hence, our penchant for developing a car dependant lifestyle because Hobbits will always be able to afford oil. @mickletterfrack wrote:

      Get the whole nation behind a grand concept of an eco city, improve design and cut down emmissions two birds with one quill.

      A useful vision.

    • #788984
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Something to note on this issue is that it is not a matter of eco-awareness. Peak oil is going to happen, very likely in the next 10 years according to a lot of projections. So a low carbon economy will not be an option but a fact. The question will be the impact on our society in the transition. Design and planning has a key role in deciding to what extent we can mitigate disruption to our way of life.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil

      I remember a fantastic interview around June 2000 on RTE – interviewer asked a couple of market traders in Dublin about their preparations for the Euro. Response? “Nah, it’ll never happen!”

    • #788985
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @JL wrote:

      Something to note on this issue is that it is not a matter of eco-awareness. Peak oil is going to happen, very likely in the next 10 years according to a lot of projections. So a low carbon economy will not be an option but a fact. The question will be the impact on our society in the transition. Design and planning has a key role in deciding to what extent we can mitigate disruption to our way of life.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil

      Now you listen to me, Samwise Gamgee. Don’t be giving yourself airs and graces and talking like you knows what you don’t. That’s all stuff to do with Big Folk, and there’s no need for Hobbits to go meddling in things that don’t concern them.

      Tesco is great for the cheap petrol. And there’s lots of Tescos and more going up all over. @JL wrote:

      I remember a fantastic interview around June 2000 on RTE – interviewer asked a couple of market traders in Dublin about their preparations for the Euro. Response? “Nah, it’ll never happen!”

      That strikes me as something explicable by the hypothesis that we’re ignorant and stupid. However, we of course should not say that even if it is true. It was stupid and ignorant of me to think otherwise but then, hey, I’m Irish.

    • #788986
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Will you stop it with the ignorant already?

    • #788987
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      We have developed a car-dependant lifesyle not only because we are hobbits following a trend but becasue in most cases we have no choice. The urban planners and development visionaries who tore up the streetcar, trolley and rural rail ines throughout Ireland left joe o’blogs with little realistic option. Now would they have been the educated visionaries or the ignorant ones. In Ireland it was lack of vision, in America it was far more sinister, the car companies actively pursued a policy in the 60s 70s of buying automated public transit systems to encourage dependance on automobiles. Irl could probably learn alot from Canada, cities like Montreal and Quebec similar scale but much nicer public and private development. Schuhart thankfully I didnt get any of the counter-points you were trying to make earlier they were so poorly presented ,ahhh ignorance IS bliss, send me an email if you want to discuss our personal differences outside this forum, others arent interested Im sure.

    • #788988
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @mickletterfrack wrote:

      I didnt get any of the counter-points you were trying to make earlier they were so poorly presented ahhh ignorance IS bliss,

      You’re stealing my lines. Probably a wise decision in the circumstances. @mickletterfrack wrote:

      send me an email if you want to discuss our personal differences outside this forum, others arent interested Im sure.

      I’m sure I would if it was possible to have a personal difference emerge on an anonymous forum.

    • #788989
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Anyway.

      If we jump forward 50 years, what opportunites should we try and exploit between now and then?

    • #788990
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @schuhart wrote:

      It was stupid and ignorant of me to think otherwise but then, hey, I’m Irish.

      Havnt read the thread in its entirety, as its long and time is short, but scuhart, to simply dismiss ireland as a collective pool of ignorance is an easy, unhelpful and unproductive statement…. continue to wallow in your ignorance for as long as you like, but it certainly wont change anything you disapprove of in Ireland… your opinion is subject to what your exposed to but, imho, there are plenty of pro-active(politically, culturally, enviornmentally, etc) people here willing to work towards a “vision” ….something that is a worthy measure of success. People like yourself who seem obsessed to doom the country to failure are the problem with it, there is no endemic inferiority complex in the irish people (yourself excluded of course) and we are not limited to thinking small… if you want to talk infrastructure, I agree there is some incompetance, but consider that economic success is new to ireland and that there is a learning curve, especially in a democratic system… the dramatic rise in entrepreneurship alone over the last 10 yrs refutes a sense of inferiorty. Your trolling only yeilds useless rant, not constructive debate….shup

      If we jump forward 50 years, what opportunites should we try and exploit between now and then?

      IMHO….. the retention, promotion, proliferation and perhaps even evolution of Irish culture(music, language, literature, etc) for those of you who want to put dublin on the map, do it with substance… anyone can build high. Dont get me wrong, I love shiny towers:D

      or an ecocity…. nice idea;)

    • #788991
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Theres an interesting chap in the UK (used to live in West Cork, Rob Hopkins) he is at the forefront of the permaculture movement and wrote an interesting dissertation on ‘Permaculture – a new approach to rural design’ I know I know whats rural about Dublin (?) except maybe the Irish who live there that others are fixated about their ignorance…
      Before I go any further or Im misquoted by Schuhart again, can I categorically state that … I dont believe the Irish are ignorant, far far from it, and Im not in favour of high rises nor fllyovers simply for the sake of them.

      Anyways my point is Robs current project is developing Transition Cities in the UK, (Bristol being one) moving away from peak oil dependancy to more sustainable development. He seems to have gathered some traction over there, having said that, part of the reason he left Ireland was because the urban planners, council development officers etc simply made the whole process a nightmare in West Cork. No visionaires or risk takers there Im afraid.
      If anyone has the chance, inclination or time to work/follow up with what Rob is doing in the UK or even those connected to the permaculture movement in Ireland Id recommend it , you wont regret it. Could bring alot to the way you think about processes and how they feed off and into other processes. Everything is connected.. maybe thats part of the problem with Irish design, too much is taken in isolation with indiviual solutions for percieved isolated issues , when in fact a synergistic design solution is required. I cant believe I used the ‘s’ word but it seemed apropos for once.

      http://transitionculture.org/

      Schuhart , what are you babbling on about…. what do you mean I stole your lines…

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by mickletterfrack
      send me an email if you want to discuss our personal differences outside this forum, others arent interested Im sure.
      Response posted by Schuhart
      I’m sure I would if it was possible to have a personal difference emerge on an anonymous forum.

      Isnt that what this forum is all about, everyone expressing personal opinions, and the emergence of those differences … besides theres options on the forum to email or send private msgs if I have offended your delicate sensibilities.

    • #788992
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Yes. Heard him talking about this and the Transition towns project sounds great – thanks for the link.

    • #788993
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Look, lets get real, we have failed on infrastructure and the physical environment. Go to Dubai (a city in a small country) and look at their ambition. It puts us to shame. Ive every right to be angry at our failure to create a capital to be proud of and dont go on with the bullsh*t that small is beautiful- its not. Its pahtetic and shows us in a bad light. Where is the ambition and the intent to make a statement in Dublin architectularly? Yet again another 32 storey spectacular building rejected in Ballsbridge. Im sorry but we are being f**ked over of opportunity by stupid people in DCC. None of them have ambition to build big. God forbid we look too important. Im sorry but you guys who think everthing is fine you honestly have your heads stuck up your arse. Ive travelled the world and am well informed to tell you what a stupid race of people we are. Admit it FFS.

    • #788994
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      HAH 😀 The truth comes out!!! So the thread was about high-rise after all!!

      Don’t know if you read the papers here darkman but there was a weekend feature on the environmental catastrophe that is Dubai last Saturday.

      You and the rest of the high rise lot should stop clogging up this site and take yourselves off to Dubai if that’s what you like to look at and consider to be successful urban form.

    • #788995
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      darkman – you know where to cast your votes next Thursday anyway..:D
      http://www.newheartfordublin.ie/

    • #788996
      admin
      Keymaster

      Well done

      10 years and what have we seen in planning terms.

      30,000 one offs a year and no tall buildings

      does PD stand for ‘Pitiful Densities’?

      or is it ‘Petrol Dependency’?

      or even ‘Politiicised Decentralisation’

      The tail assimulated years ago you might as well vote FF

    • #788997
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Was sent this recently and didn’t know whether to laugh or cry (actually I was laughing, but guiltily):

      http://www.freewebs.com/artpaper21/Dubai.ppt

      ON the PD thing, the ambition is comendable but the images they show are completely embarrassing. The infantile photomontage doesn’t help. Cruise ships as regeneration – come on! There’s a cruise ship terminal on the west side of Manhattan and it’s as dead as a doornail most of the time (I did a short study on it). I can’t believe that cruise liners are going to be any use as a sustainable solution.

      Although the idea of regeneration is great they have obviously not spoken to anyone who knows anything about cities, urban design or architecture. Actually if there is a big problem with Ireland it’s not lack of ambition, it’s people ranting on about subjects they don’t really know anything about and not being bothered to go and do some research.

    • #788998
      admin
      Keymaster

      Good point the idea of reclaiming 36 acres of sea in Galway Bay to create berths for cruise liners is even crazier

      https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=5145&highlight=galway+cruise+liners

    • #788999
      admin
      Keymaster

      true their photomontage is horiffic stuff but the basic idea to shift Dublin Port is a good one & should happen long term. IF we are to have high rise in this city, they should be confined pretty much exclusively to this area.

    • #789000
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Originally posted by JL
      it’s people ranting on about subjects they don’t really know anything about and not being bothered to go and do some research.

      That’s what happens as soon as the weather turns sour! Seriously.

    • #789001
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @ihateawake wrote:

      to simply dismiss ireland as a collective pool of ignorance is an easy, unhelpful and unproductive statement…. continue to wallow in your ignorance for as long as you like, but it certainly wont change anything you disapprove of in Ireland

      I think you’re addressing the point that you wish I’d made, rather than the point actually made. And at the heart of it, you are simply reacting at an emotional level to the word ‘ignorant’. Why do the PDs come out with a whole load of baloney about their plans for a ‘new heart for Dublin’ while simultaneously participating in a Government that has no commitment to planning in any substantial sense having undermined its own spatial strategy? Its only another example of a more general question. Why is public debate conducted in a language of fantasy?

      I’m being deliberately provocative in saying ‘stupid and ignorant’ but it’s not necessarily negative to do that. Nor, sadly, is it so terribly far from the truth if you’ve heard farmers dismiss concerns about agricultural pollution with the phrase ‘there’s no progress without dirt’. It puts some necessary focus on mindsets can be changed because the same barrier crops up everywhere. It’s also why, for the sake of argument, necessary reform in the health services has to overcome lots of ‘save our crap local hospital’ campaign.

      There might be no short cut. The solution to proper planning in Ireland, along with an array of other things, might actually start with smaller class sizes at primary level, with a view to addressing the problem that the OECD survey revealed about the educational attainment of Irish schoolchildren relative to their peers in other countries. They have above average reading ability, but they can’t think. @mickletterfrack wrote:

      Schuhart , what are you babbling on about…. what do you mean I stole your lines…

      For some reason, I feel you know. @mickletterfrack wrote:

      theres options on the forum to email or send private msgs if I have offended your delicate sensibilities.

      I’m not offended a bit, although I did get a PM from a Mongolian Yak farmer who really took offence at you calling them ignorant.

    • #789002
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Is there really any point in talking about the original topic in abstract temrs like ignorance / lack of ambition / national traits? The discussion will go around in circles if it goes on without dealing with facts or specific issues. Not to mention the fact that people from any of the other countries mentioned as good examples would probably have an equally dim view of things in their own lands – Ireland doesn’t hold the patent on cynicism.

      Opps! While all this slagging was going on I am sure I saw another opportunity shoot by!

      Anyway – I wonder how feasible it would be to turn Dublin into a transition city? From the most recent stats I read I believe that Dublin has a very high standard of dometics recycling compared internationally and spectacular strides have been made on this in the last 3 years. It appears to be a very good news story. One report maintains an increase of 300% in 3 years, while another I read shows a rate I believe to be double the current aspirational rate for London. Can this sort of progress be achieved on other fronts?

    • #789003
      Anonymous
      Inactive
      Devin wrote:
      HAH 😀 The truth comes out!!! So the thread was about high-rise after all!!

      Don&#8217]

      I think darkman was talking about dubai’s ambition not the actual number of buildings Dubai have constructed
      Are most (not all) high rises not born out of necessity?
      When the land becomes so scarce/valuable that the only way to build is up?
      I think that is what we are witnessing in dublin as our fair city grows

      Same goes for those terrible roads, those are needed for our ever expanding population to hop around
      then there is mass transit which is needed for those folks who choose to avoid the traffic jams
      Roads of high quality and mass transit of high quality are badly needed
      And i seriously dont think its one or the other

      edit; carbon neutral is a noble pursuit we should all take serious
      https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=6053

    • #789004
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Don’t think high rise is born of necessity most of the time. Places like Shanghai, Singapore, Pudong perhaps – very constrained land availability. But the highest densities ever recorded were in the Lower East Side of Manhattan at the turn of the 20th C – 300,000 per sq mile I think, and that was managed with an average tenement height of 5 storeys.

      High rise is not an economic necessity in Dublin – more an enormous profit making nice-to-have. It is certainly not a necessity in Dubai and seems to be born out a misplaced desire to live the American dream, except 60 years too late.

    • #789005
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      On BBC news tonight

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_6660000/newsid_6663800/6663809.stm?bw=bb&mp=rm

      this is the C40 Large Cities Climate Summit

      http://www.nycclimatesummit.com/

      more general info at:

      http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/05/15/tech/main2804711.shtml?source=RSSattr=U.S._2804711

      I see Copenhagen is at the table. Why has Dublin not gate-crashed this if they weren’t invited? Or does anyone know are they participating in any other such gatherings?

    • #789006
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I think the lower east side achieved this with having an entire family per room or so
      the upper east side now is pretty dense with a forest of 4 – 50 story buildings although most buildings on the ave’s would be around the 12 story range
      Isn’t Dubai more of a resort than anyting else ? so it would not fall into the ‘normal’ city category

      and since when did high rise become the ‘american dream’?? because you see new york on tv?

      the american dream would be more like a nice suburban house with the white picket fence

    • #789007
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Is there a ‘normal’ category? You’re right though, what I understand of the economics of Dubai just sounds bonkers to me and beyond comprehension.

      Very good chapter about the development of high rise in NY in the book ‘Cities in Civilisation’ by Peter Hall. A very complex coming together of many factors at one time – interesting story, especially when talking about the differences between Chicago and New York skyscrapers.

      http://www.amazon.com/Cities-Civilization-Peter-Hall/dp/0394587324

      Even in the US though, outside Chicago and New York the skyscraper appeared to be more of a cultural phenomenon than economically driven. With NYC the entry point for the majority of immigrants, the skyscrapers they encountered were hugely influential, and spread as immigrants and ideas filtered across to other cities.

      There are for the moment powerful reasons for large commercial high rises – New York and London have to build them in order to compete globally. But do companies want to occupy them for reasons solely of property economics? I think it is the value added by prestige which makes companies want icons. Enormous tracts of open floorspace could be built anywhere at much lower heights, but global businesses want to be high up, be seen and they want to be in the heart of cities, it seems.

      In terms of the American Dream it is arguable that the most influential US invention (neck and neck with the mass-produced car) is the skyscraper. It still has a mesmerising mystique for people in far flung cities who want to announce their arrival as world players. I think it is amazing that people are still competing to build the highest skyscraper. Without a pwerful economic argument it looks like insecurity.

    • #789008
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      They are fair points, oustside of chicago and new york and possibly boston and san fran
      skyscrapers are a lot to do with image and not necessity
      A city with a striking skyline can be packaged and sold easier,
      corporations do want prestigous buildings for their hq’s and why wouldnt they, but they also want to have a central location that will be close to the talent pool and transport links

      But lets get back to ireland, we are not talking massive corporate hq’s here but merely a few apartment buildings of relatively moderate height,
      to be honest Dublin cannot take blockbuster office towers simply because the floorplate would be too great.
      The only highrise that will work there are slender towers mostly suited for apartments

      Tall structures when done right can actually be something to be proud of, if there is one thing missing from ordinary Dubs it is civic pride

      I really do not understand how anybody can argue against building a top – i.e the best, quality road network, with a little bit of oversizing for future needs? (some earlier arguments against motorways)



      Thanks for the link i’m sure an interesting read, but i’m still trying to find time to finish Friedmans “The world is flat” (damn you cable tv!!!)

      Also all this will seem quite trivial when we reach peak oil, which is pretty soon by a lot af accounts
      There is a real eye opening docu called ‘A Crude Awakening’ i watched it recently on sundance channel over here.
      a link to another related thread
      https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=5528&highlight=suburbia

      We all think money makes the world go round but it is in fact the abundance of cheap oil

    • #789009
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      The interesting bit about Chicago vs NY was that as most companies had headquarters in Manhattan but Chicago was more regional offices, the New York ones were a lot more sculptural. The Chicago buildings were more often built speculatively and were incredibly efficient space machines.

      I am not at all against high rises, it’s just that a) they are only one small part of the vocabulary that can make a great places and b) they do signify the worst and most embarrassing top-o-the-world-ma insecure small-willy tin-pot dicator aspirations to announce to the world that you’ve arrived. They can be good, but they are by far the most visible and easiest things to latch onto. Obssessing about height is to miss so much more that can be done to make cities great.

      The other reason that I am not particularly keen on them to be used to signify a city is the nature of their use. Compare a skyscraper to say a public square. Whereas the square is public, open space offering amenity to all, a hgih rise is private, enclosed space which offers amenity only to leaseholders. The contribution to public space of a high rise is pretty limited in my opinion.

      I would rather have a completed street, filled with activity, variety, characters, stories, hidden shops, places to hang out than a high-rise apartment building enclosed, as is frequently the case, within a private residential development.

      I think that the leading edge of urban design is more at creating places where people love to be and researching and deploying the most innovative sustainable techniques and technologies.

      Have to watch the end of suburbia – thanks!

    • #789010
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Did you see the article posted by Walker, JL?

      https://archiseek.com/content/showpost.php?p=64046&postcount=211

      I like the odd high building myself. But apparently very few more will be built in the world as they are a huge drain on the environment. Susan Roaf has written much on this.

    • #789011
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Thanks. It’s interesting – porb says as much about the shock everyone was feeling after 9/11 as anything about the future of towers. Since the article was written it seems towers are booming as never before – in New York there’s the rebuilding of the WTC site and a new high rise district planned for the West Midtown, in London height is only constrained by technical capabilities as far as the GLA is concerned. And as for China Shanghai or Beijing…

      I remember there were also a lot of predictions that big companies would abandon city centres and decamp to dispersed suburbs – another prediction that was wide of the mark!

      I don’t think any of this ever affected Ireland though – towers are really beginning to happen now it appears.

    • #789012
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      In a controlled way, thankfully!

    • #789013
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      FFS how many times do I have to point this out:

      This thread is NOT about highrise

      FFS:rolleyes:

    • #789014
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Posted by Darkman FFS how many times do I have to point this out: This thread is NOT about high-rise

      I agree you have mentioned it a number of times… but everyone keeps harking back to discussing high-rises. Which in a kind of roundabout way gives you the answer to your question…

      What has been built during the boom that is ‘extraordinary’? Why has our failure occurred?

      note everyone he didn’t say What high-rise has been built…

      The naysayers on the thread who denied our abject failure in urban development pretty quickly fell away, leaving one to draw only one conclusion..that you were right, we have in fact failed . Then the question is why and given the underwhelming amount of vision, creative ideas, impetus and a myopic focus on those HRs, in response to your initial post, Id argue maybe we failed because we were never capable of succeeding in the first place given a numer of circumstances. Some within the control of the Irish design world some outside their control. Among other things I believe the talent existed, but I don’t believe it was ever nurtured properly, the pool of talent is too incestuous in Irl, too much from the same school of training (literally) bit like a madras in a way, add to that the corruption, a laziness born from a newly acquired ‘nouveau riche’ lifestyle, a general demise in breakthrough developments of vision worldwide..and that’s a recipe for the general crap you saw about you on that drive through Dublin

      Question is what y’all going todo about it ? Hope your thread has stirred some momentum, theres been a lot of good input and a couple of great suggestions Id love to see get a chance but I wouldn’t call it overwhelming.

      Did someone mention Dubai here… we are discussing sound ecological contemporary developments here arent we …..2005 data
      The five nations with the largest per capita ecological deficits (negative ecological balances) are the United Arab Emirates (-213), Kuwait (-146), the United States (-89), Belgium & Luxembourg (-62) and Netherlands (-56).

      Schuhart you plonk…

      Originally Posted by mickletterfrack
      Schuhart , what are you babbling on about…. what do you mean I stole your lines…
      Reply by Schuhart
      For some reason, I feel you know.

      No I don’t know please give me an example and I will accept your point otherwise stop implying I plagarised.
      I could handle it if it was only that but your insinuation is also implying I plagiarised from a moron which I can’t stand for.

    • #789015
      admin
      Keymaster

      Darkman are you trying to take the piss ? practically every contribution of yours references high rise.

      Darkman’s posts on this thread

      The Docklands is a failure – a failure of enlightenment of highrise development – a sympthom of failure of Irish attitude to change. Our tallest building after the Celtic Tiger is 70m high

      ***************

      This is exactly the attitude im talking about. Its always why should we do this or why should we do that. Never why we can do that and we will. This is the problem.

      Its not your fault of course. Its an Irish thing. Whatever we do – make sure we build it too friggin small – thats the mentality.

      ***************

      Its not about whether Dublin has tall buildings or not – well actually it is in a way because it’s a sympthom of a strange attitude we have of thinking too small.

      Im not arguing for Skyscrapers or to turn Dublin into Shanghai or anything like that. What im saying is we build too small. Even the most rose tinted spectacles of some contributers would see this is the case.

      ***************

      Go to Dubai (a city in a small country) and look at their ambition. It puts us to shame. Ive every right to be angry at our failure to create a capital to be proud of and dont go on with the bullsh*t that small is beautiful- its not. Its pahtetic and shows us in a bad light. Where is the ambition and the intent to make a statement in Dublin architectularly? Yet again another 32 storey spectacular building rejected in Ballsbridge. Im sorry but we are being f**ked over of opportunity by stupid people in DCC.

    • #789016
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @mickletterfrack wrote:

      Schuhart you plonk…

      No I don’t know please give me an example and I will accept your point otherwise stop implying I plagarised.
      I could handle it if it was only that but your insinuation is also implying I plagiarised from a moron which I can’t stand for.

      Just to save your psychiatrist a difficult phone call before the weekend, I’ll explain my passing comments – even if its really not so big a deal.

      What I was getting at was your comment in post 85

      I didnt get any of the counter-points you were trying to make earlier they were so poorly presented

      suggests to me that you were smarting over my remark in post 77 to the effect that your comments lack coherence and, hence, felt a need to make much the same comment to me without, tbh, the same actual cause.

      Always a bad sign when it gets into citing posts by number.

    • #789017
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      The first skyscapers were buit in Chicago I understood. They represent male phallic supremacy and were built to flaunt the endowment of their builders. Every city in the US looks so alike and although I’m a keen admirer of a lot of the thrusting monuments to wealth, I feel a more feminine approach to architecture would be more apposite to the 21st century.

      Are all you architects in here men? Ever heard of Eileen Gray? If not, why not?

    • #789018
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Sometimes a skyscraper is just a skyscraper….

    • #789019
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      JL.- surely not in the postmodern era.

    • #789020
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @CasaNova wrote:

      They represent male phallic supremacy and were built to flaunt the endowment of their builders. …. I feel a more feminine approach to architecture would be more apposite to the 21st century.

      You mean live in a hole in the ground?

    • #789021
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Darkman I am not talking about high-rises per se, but signifiers of progress or success. You brought up high-rise in the context of judging Ireland a success or failure – as was pretty eloquently pointed out above.

      If we can’t get off the topic of morbidly discussing Ireland and (in my opinion simplistically) declaring it a success or failure, then perhaps let’s talk about success/failure in respect of other countries. Which countries are ‘successful’ and which are ‘failures’. Come on, don’t be shy, name names!

    • #789022
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Thought so.

    • #789023
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      anyone who has travelled extensively in the world knows always says oh things are better over there than here and sure there are bad things about every country in the world whether it be in social terms or architecture.

      But theres something about ireland i know what darkman is saying its the laziness of the people the couldn’t give a sh*t attitude about things. Heres an example. walking down the road in a middle to upper class area yesterday all i see is dogsh8T and litter thrown all over the place …. not just small amounts of it large quantites of it the type youd see in the news in iraq where they have no sanitation facilities and im thinking myself jesus why dont they just clean the place once a week…. but then its the lazy irish attitude of ahhh couldn’t give a sh’t if it doesnt affect me why should i bother.

      thats the difference right there and it permutates to every aspect of irish life unfortunately including building large scale projects ahhh sure why would we do that i dont see the point in that…you just want large builidings coz reason A B C …

    • #789024
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @tfarmer wrote:

      anyone who has travelled extensively in the world knows always says oh things are better over there than here and sure there are bad things about every country in the world whether it be in social terms or architecture.

      But theres something about ireland i know what darkman is saying its the laziness of the people the couldn’t give a sh*t attitude about things. Heres an example. walking down the road in a middle to upper class area yesterday all i see is dogsh8T and litter thrown all over the place …. not just small amounts of it large quantites of it the type youd see in the news in iraq where they have no sanitation facilities and im thinking myself jesus why dont they just clean the place once a week…. but then its the lazy irish attitude of ahhh couldn’t give a sh’t if it doesnt affect me why should i bother.

      thats the difference right there and it permutates to every aspect of irish life unfortunately including building large scale projects ahhh sure why would we do that i dont see the point in that…you just want large builidings coz reason A B C …

      I’d have to agree tfarmer but not everyone here is like that 😉 In general you are right though. Should the appreciation of these things be taught starting in primary school? What do people think?

    • #789025
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I can’t believe that (after someone cited it as a good example for Dublin to follow), the only objections to Dubai have been on environmental grounds. I haven’t seen one mention of the fact that Dubai is built by what amounts to slave labour. It is a victory for cruelty and exploitation and to visit it on holiday is a base act.

    • #789026
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      True, if Ireland wanted to take a leaf from Dubai’s book, we’d have to start by banning unions, allowing a minimum wage of €1 per hour and giving employers virtual ownership of their foreign workers. That’s not to take away from the environmental unsustainability of the development there. Apparently, we are “put to shame” by a tiny country that feels the need to diversify its economy away from crude oil and towards tourism by building hundreds of miles of new coast on giant man-made islands shaped like palm trees and maps of the world visible from space. And by throwing up kilometre-high skyscrapers just to stay in a pissing contest.

    • #789027
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @AndrewP wrote:

      True, if Ireland wanted to take a leaf from Dubai’s book, we’d have to start by banning unions, allowing a minimum wage of €1 per hour and giving employers virtual ownership of their foreign workers. ….

      Dubai imports its cheap labor from Pakistan/India; Singapore brings in Philippinos and makes the contractors provide immigration bonds (called on should the worker abscond). Ireland uses cheap labor from Turkey and the government turns a blind eye ….. and allows a fudge on the paperwork viz. reports on Gamma in today’s IT.
      KB

    • #789028
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      It’s not just us. Not about skyscrapers but a great article/book review nonetheless on health care in different countries: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/15/health/15book.html?emc=eta1

      One Injury, 10 Countries: A Journey in Health Care
      By ABIGAIL ZUGER, M.D.
      Published: September 14, 2009

      With all due respect to the seminar room, the boardroom, the hearing room and the Oval Office, a better vantage point than any of them for evaluating and redesigning our health care system is the hospital room (window bed, please).

      The chair next to the bed isn’t bad, either.

      Some of us perch on one or the other almost every day, observing the tangled mess that is our current system and mentally designing a dozen better alternatives. But for those who wind up in bed or a chair only when tragedy strikes, T. R. Reid’s new book provides an excellent substitute perspective.

      Mr. Reid, a veteran foreign correspondent for The Washington Post, knows from personal experience that there are indeed a dozen better alternatives. International postings from London to Japan familiarized him with many of the world’s health care systems. Then a chronic shoulder problem offered the opportunity for an unusually well-controlled experiment: Mr. Reid decided to present his stiff shoulder for treatment around the world.

      One shoulder, 10 countries. Admittedly it’s a gimmick, but what saves the book from slumping into a sack of anecdotes like Michael Moore’s 2007 documentary “Sicko” is a steel backbone of health policy analysis that manages to trap immensely complicated concepts in crystalline prose.

      “The Healing of America” blends subjective and objective into a seamless indictment of our own disastrous system, an eloquent rebuttal against the arguments used to defend it, and appealing alternatives for fixing it.

      Mr. Reid starts with a methodical clarification of terms. First: universal health care. Far from a single socialized system, the various plans other countries use to cover all their residents are quite distinct. Some are as private as our own, and most offer considerably more in the way of choice.

      In Japan, and many European countries, private health insurers — all of them nonprofit — finance visits to private doctors and private hospitals through a system of payroll deductions.

      In Canada, South Korea and Taiwan, the insurer is government-run and financed by universal premiums, but doctors and hospitals are private.

      In Britain, Italy, Spain and most of Scandinavia, most hospitals are government-owned, and a tax-financed government agency pays doctors’ bills.

      In poor countries around the world, private commerce rules: residents pay cash for all health care, which generally means no health care at all.

      Similarly, what Americans often consider a single unique system of health care is an illusion: we exist in a sea of not-so-unique alternatives. Like the citizens of Germany and Japan, workers in the United States share insurance premiums with an employer. Like Canadians, our older, destitute and disabled citizens see private providers with the government paying. Like the British, military veterans and Native Americans receive care in government facilities with the government paying the tab. And like the poor around the world, our uninsured pay cash, finagle charity care, or stay home.

      Our archipelago of plans means that those safe on a good island with good insurance can be delighted with the system, even as millions of invisible fellow citizens tread water or drown offshore. It means that those on a mediocre island are stuck there. It also means that not one single piece of the infrastructure — like record keeping, drug pricing and administrative costs — can be streamlined across islands in any meaningful way. Hence the expense, the inequity and the tragedy.

      When Mr. Reid presents his shoulder to his own orthopedist in Colorado, the doctor is quick to recommend a shoulder replacement. It will cost his insurer tens of thousands of dollars (assuming it agrees to pay), with unknown co-payments for him. Risks include all those of major surgery; benefits include a restored golf swing.

      The same shoulder gets substantially different reactions elsewhere in the world.

      In France, a general practitioner sends him to an orthopedist (out-of-pocket consultation fee: $10) who recommends physical therapy, suggests an easily available second opinion if Mr. Reid really wants that surgery, and notes that the cost of the operation will be entirely covered by insurance (waiting time about a month).

      In Germany, the operation is his for the asking the following week, for an out-of-pocket cost of about $30.

      In London, a cheerful general practitioner tells Mr. Reid to learn to live with his shoulder. No joint replacement is done in Britain without disability far more serious than his to justify the expense and the risks, and if his golf game is that important, he can go private and foot the bill himself.

      In Japan, the foremost orthopedist in the country (waiting time for an appointment, less than a day) offers a range of possible treatments, from steroid injections to surgery, all covered by insurance. (“Think about it, and call me.”)

      In an Ayurvedic hospital in India, a regimen of meditation, rice, lentils and massage paid for entirely out of pocket, $42.85 per night, led to “obvious improvement in my frozen joint,” Mr. Reid writes, adding, “To this day, I don’t know why it happened.”

      But the comparative merits of different orthopedic philosophies are secondary here: Mr. Reid’s attention is focused on a meticulous deconstruction of the history and philosophy of the policy decisions behind them.

      Among health policy narratives, this book’s clarity, comprehensiveness and readability are exceptional, and its bottom line is a little different from most. Instead of rationalization and hand-wringing, Mr. Reid offers an array of possible solutions for our crisis. As the proverb goes (it is a favorite among policy wonks): “To find your way in the fog, follow the tracks of the oxcart ahead.” We have plenty of reasonable paths to follow.

      And plenty of reasons to follow them. Mr. Reid’s underlying message of hope does not preclude an intensely satisfying quotient of moral outrage at the worst casualties of our system as it stands.

      One is the uninsured working person, too rich for Medicaid, too poor for a standard insurance policy, at first too proud to acknowledge disability, and then too sick for the process that a formal declaration of disability requires. These are the people who die of treatable illness in our country.

      And then there is the insured working person who discovers, with surprise, that health insurance is a for-profit industry, that the industry term for payment is “medical loss” and that the process of extracting payment for a dire health condition can turn into a bizarre game of “catch me if you can.”

      A person’s last days can be spent in any number of ways. But on the phone pleading with an insurer, that’s only in America.

    • #789029
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Presumably he meant to include Ireland on the list, but the book had to go to press.

      My wife, fully paid up VHI, got a referal to an orthopedic surgeon a month ago for a heavily damaged knee possibly as a result of recently diagnosed fibromyalgia. Her appointment is end of February 2010!!

    • #789030
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      End of Feb 2010 is relatively good compared to other periods for consultant referrals.
      The health system in France is supposed to be much better and cheaper.
      So, if you can muster a local address there, then . . . 😉

    • #789031
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @teak wrote:

      End of Feb 2010 is relatively good compared to other periods for consultant referrals.
      The health system in France is supposed to be much better and cheaper.
      So, if you can muster a local address there, then . . . 😉

      Know nothing about referral periods here, but the system in France is considerably more expensive (PRSI charges for employer/ee are considerably higher) and most families also have supplementary health insurance frum a mutual insurer, “le supp.” Pay as you go and reclaim at year-end, with a chosen deductable.
      K.

    • #789032
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I hear that in Germany lots of people have private medical insurance, too, but its only purpose is to get you a private room in the hospital if that’s what you want rather than being on a ward. It doesn’t improve the speed or quality of access to medical treatment, which is what the state provides equally to all citizens. It only covers the standard of your medical ‘hotel’ accommodation, bumping you up from 3-star to 5-star, for example. Haven’t tried it myself, though. True or false?

    • #789033
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Regardless of any of this, my only experience of the ‘hotel’-type ‘better’ accommodation in the private sector was when I had an op as a day-patient in a private hospital near here (paid for by the NHS). It reminded me of an over-carpeted Las Vegas hotel – I wasn’t impressed. Healthcare should be provided on the basis of need, to a uniform standard, free at the point of access and funded through taxes and compulsory universal medical insurance. The nonsense of, for example, paying to see your GP is on a par with the Government paying the salaries of teachers in fee-paying schools. The politics of the madhouse.
      From an architectural perspective, the building is mere envelope, and most people want out of it as quickly as possible.

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