The Burlington proves that the planning laws are bad law.

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    • #709759
      noel ogara
      Participant

      :eek:No need to bore you by saying what a great amenity and integral part of Dublin city the Burlington was, but its a poorer city without it.
      The Burlington is now closed down awaiting redevelopment. That is hard proof that our planning laws have distorted the market so much that the owners couldnt resist the outlandish price offered for it.
      288 million for a business worth no more than forty or fifty million at most is not to be sneezed at.
      How could it happen that a business with a bottom line of half a million perhaps a million a year after a lot of hard graft could be worth such a price?
      We cant blame the owners for selling up. They can now go to the USA or Europe and buy a chain of top grade hotels with that cash.
      The prospect of redeveloping the four acre site and building high rise expensive apartments made that a proposition for the developer because of the zoning and planning.
      Such is the level of distortion of our market because of the planning laws.

      The Burlington and the Jury Berkeley Court hotel might just be the straw that have broken the camel’s back.
      I certainly wouldnt like to be one of their bankers.
      Already they have said that they will continue as a hotel and that is because there is no prospect of selling those flats in the false market they have created.
      What an expensive hotel it will be, providing a return on capital of a fraction of one per cent.
      If that level of loan is an indication of bank lending, the banks themselves may well be almost bankrupt and if that happens we will all be the poorer.
      It could happen. Stranger things have happened.

    • #796761
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @noel o’gara wrote:

      It could happen. Stranger things have happened.

      true. you happened.

    • #796762
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @noel o’gara wrote:

      its a poorer city without it..

      You might think so, I don’t.

      @noel o’gara wrote:

      The prospect of redeveloping the four acre site and building high rise expensive apartments made that a proposition for the developer because of the zoning and planning.
      Such is the level of distortion of our market because of the planning laws…

      Good thing he’s planning to build offices on it so
      @noel o’gara wrote:

      Already they have said that they will continue as a hotel and that is because there is no prospect of selling those flats in the false market they have created.
      If that level of loan is an indication of bank lending, the banks themselves may well be almost bankrupt and if that happens we will all be the poorer.
      .

      Yeah the loan and development outlook is so bad that a bank took a stake in its future development.

    • #796763
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @noel o’gara wrote:

      :eek:No need to bore you by saying what a great amenity and integral part of Dublin city the Burlington was, but its a poorer city without it.

      The Burlington is now closed down awaiting redevelopment. That is hard proof that our planning laws have distorted the market so much that the owners couldnt resist the outlandish price offered for it.
      288 million for a business worth no more than forty or fifty million at most is not to be sneezed at.
      How could it happen that a business with a bottom line of half a million perhaps a million a year after a lot of hard graft could be worth such a price?
      We cant blame the owners for selling up. They can now go to the USA or Europe and buy a chain of top grade hotels with that cash.
      The prospect of redeveloping the four acre site and building high rise expensive apartments made that a proposition for the developer because of the zoning and planning.
      Such is the level of distortion of our market because of the planning laws.

      The Burlington and the Jury Berkeley Court hotel might just be the straw that have broken the camel’s back.
      I certainly wouldnt like to be one of their bankers.
      Already they have said that they will continue as a hotel and that is because there is no prospect of selling those flats in the false market they have created.
      What an expensive hotel it will be, providing a return on capital of a fraction of one per cent.
      If that level of loan is an indication of bank lending, the banks themselves may well be almost bankrupt and if that happens we will all be the poorer.
      It could happen. Stranger things have happened.

      These posts are hilarious – keep them up please.

    • #796764
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @Spinal Tap wrote:

      These posts are hilarious – keep them up please.

      I can hear the Doyle’s laughing from here.

    • #796765
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Why? Have they become grocer’s?

    • #796766
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      No, he can hear them laughing at him for his hilarious posts on transport and planning. Perhaps it might quiet him for a while…:rolleyes:

    • #796767
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @Angry Rebel wrote:

      No, he can hear them laughing at him for his hilarious posts on transport and planning. Perhaps it might quiet him for a while…:rolleyes:

      sorry AR, they are laughing at all the poor people who will be mortgaged up to their necks for their lifetime when they buy those flats that will be built on their land and nowhere to go for lunch, a cup of coffee, a disco, a conference, a pint of Guinness or a party.
      Also they will be laughing at the absure planning laws that enabled that to happen.

    • #796768
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @noel o’gara wrote:

      sorry AR, they are laughing at all the poor people who will be mortgaged up to their necks for their lifetime when they buy those flats that will be built on their land and nowhere to go for lunch, a cup of coffee, a disco, a conference, a pint of Guinness or a party.
      Also they will be laughing at the absure planning laws that enabled that to happen.

      ๐Ÿ™‚ And there’s another gem, you’re funnier than Billy Connolly. It must be tongue in cheek that you are saying people, living in the middle of Ballsbridge, walking distance from and on the best bus route to the city centre, living in a new mixed use development….will have nowhere to go….

      Please stop. I’m laughing so much people around me at work are staring at me.

    • #796769
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      yes just think of all those conferences and events that the Burlo had that were in walking distance of – ta dah – Dartmouth Square, just think how many cars could have used Noel’s fictional car park.

      The Burlo was a crock of shite, I’m glad it’s gone, hope it’s replace with something better.

    • #796770
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Yeh I agree it’s a horrible building from the outside. As was Jury’s. Good Riddance. Hopefully to be replaced by better mixed use developments, including some hotel use of course.

    • #796771
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @alonso wrote:

      Yeh I agree it’s a horrible building from the outside. As was Jury’s. Good Riddance. Hopefully to be replaced by better mixed use developments, including some hotel use of course.

      It had the best lobby for a hotel in the whole country.
      It had atmosphere and class.

      You people clearly never darkened the door and you call yourselves planners.
      Where in that area of Dublin can you park your car in safety and have a meeting or a coffee in such comfort?

      Surely a planner who comments on developments should experience them before broadcasting his judgement on them?
      you could be accused of not knowing what you are talking about lads but I’m far too polite for that.

    • #796772
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @noel o’gara wrote:

      It had the best lobby for a hotel in the whole country.
      It had atmosphere and class.

      You people clearly never darkened the door and you call yourselves planners.
      Where in that area of Dublin can you park your car in safety and have a meeting or a coffee in such comfort?

      Surely a planner who comments on developments should experience them before broadcasting his judgement on them?
      you could be accused of not knowing what you are talking about lads but I’m far too polite for that.

      are you protesting the removal of an existing amenity to be replaced by overdevelopment of the site because it was a useful facility and people enjoyed using it? oh the ironing.

    • #796773
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @noel o’gara wrote:

      you could be accused of not knowing what you are talking about lads but I’m far too polite for that.

    • #796774
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      ๐Ÿ˜€

      I love how all your arguments centre around the car Noel. It reminds me of the 1980’s mindset of ‘coming up from the country’ and needing to dispose of your car, perferably outside the door of Switzers.

      Who the heck drives to a city hotel to have a cup of coffee?! You’d think it was a country pub with swirly carpets and sticky-backed beams on the ceiling you were on about.

    • #796775
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Swirly carpets reminded me. FWIW, when PV planned the opening ceremony of the Burlo and its attendant cheese/wine/pints splash, he did so long before the completion date. On the day of the opening bash, builders were behind (nothing new!), the lobby floor was still wet in parts and not wanting to delay he ordered the carpet to be laid on wet(ish) cement. Most had to be ripped up the following day and replaced.
      As for N O’G and safely parking his car around there, it never was safe and when I had an office on Burlington Rd (many years ago) I was regularly propositioned by the ladies of the evening when leaving work late.
      KB
      PS Nice one, cte.

    • #796776
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @GrahamH wrote:

      ๐Ÿ˜€

      I love how all your arguments centre around the car Noel. It reminds me of the 1980’s mindset of ‘coming up from the country’ and needing to dispose of your car, perferably outside the door of Switzers.

      Who the heck drives to a city hotel to have a cup of coffee?! You’d think it was a country pub with swirly carpets and sticky-backed beams on the ceiling you were on about.

      well he is used to driving his car into a pristine city park and selling a few manky bits of granite out of the boot

    • #796777
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @wearnicehats wrote:

      well he is used to driving his car into a pristine city park and selling a few manky bits of granite out of the boot

      Well lads I am of the opinion that it is a sin to demolish the Burlington hotel because of the great amenity it represents and the fact that so much of the city is in rag order and in obvious need of development but its those unconstitutional planning laws that have set the scene so that such perversions can happen.
      Having read the comments of you so called planners I can see why the city is so badly in need of help.
      You fellows all have your heads up your arses and perhaps that explains why DCC planners have nobody only dummies like you to deal with when they are planning such madness as burning the shit of the city in the incinerator and demolishing some of the best developments in the city namely the Burlington Jury’s and the Berkeley Court.
      I suppose when you consider the madness of a huge stadium Croke Park in the city centre and Landsdowne in another congested area instead of on the perimeter of the city and an airport that is grinding to a halt, its guys like you who want everything within walking distance of yourself who contribute to this mess you call Dublin.
      But then with politicians and planners getting in the way of land owners and developers what can you expect?

    • #796778
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      But surely Noel, not everything can be car-based? That’s my main argument against both houses one-off houses in the countryside as well as building over all the green areas in the city for more parking spaces. It’s just not practical to set up a situation where every amenity is a car-journey away. And I do include in that a drive to the Burlington for a mug of coffee.

      In fairness, the people who died to preserve dancing at the crossroads surely didn’t envision the participants having to keep jumping into the ditch to avoid speeding commuters.

    • #796779
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      It’s actually more enjoyable to sit back and watch this than get involved. Priceless stuff re stadiums btw

    • #796780
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Exactly Alonso, grab me a hot dog while I hold you a seat.

    • #796781
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Sorry…excuse me,comin thru…oops mind the popcorn…damn but it`s impossible to read seat numbers in the dark….crikey..the fillum is startin already ๐Ÿ™‚

      OOh look it`s the Film Censor`s message….. :

      “I suppose when you consider the madness of a huge stadium Croke Park in the city centre and Landsdowne in another congested area instead of on the perimeter of the city”

      Have to say “GO NOEL” to you there Noel.

      As somebody who has a deeply intimate experience with Croke Park at every major occasion held there I cannot fathom how its proprietors were let away with the last great Upgrade.
      There is a glossy pamphlet doing the rounds which purports to advise “Patrons” as to the various methods by which Pairc an Crocaigh can be approached without the need for a gluaistean (Please pardon the ommission of the odd fada).

      The reality of Big Event days (or nights) at PaC is that most if not all of North County Dublin`s Bus Services simply cease operating in any meaningful way as the area around Quinns pub becomes one big dangerous Crossroads Dance,supervised by An Garda Sicohana.

      Now this “Supervision” can be a very interesting spectacle.

      The first item to note is that the Traffic Signals at the Clonliffe Road/Drumcondra Road junction will ALWAYS be left ON.

      The functionality or otherwise of the electronic signalling (SCATS Enabled anyone ??) is then added to by several different members of the Force who will endeavour to direct traffic manually usually without any reference to their fellow member on the opposite side who will be waving equally frantically but to the opposite effect.

      The two(or more) members actually controlling the TRAFFIC will then suddenly find themselves up against the several other members acting in support of Mssrs Quinns patronage,who,in various stages of pre or post match excitement will want to leg it across the road…”and be fcuked to them oul buses…c`mon lads..hup ya boy ya”.etc etc…)

      Occasionally a Senior Tabbed Officer will happen along and let a few roars at his platoon in an attempt to put order on their chaos,but usually he is then whicked off at speed under Mounted Escort.

      Even rarer to witness is the arrival of an actual TRAFFIC CORPS senior and a couple of Motorcycle Gards who will usually manage to make at least a stab at a professional looking Traffic Control job…
      However because the Traffic Corps members have at least a FOCUS on their particular duties this then tends to conflict with the need to allow the hordes of strappin young buckleppin lads to run across the road,and so the TC people usually retreat after a short while.

      During all of this (Planned and Approved) tomfoolery Public Transport Services go into a form of Celtic Stasis,whereby normality is denied and we all adopt a Darby O Gill approach…”Ah sure`n Begorrah and is`nt it great to see the lads enjoyin the Big Day,to be sure to be sure “

      I have lost count of the numbers of foreign visitors who have been left almost in tears as their alloted ample time for a Bus Journey to the Airport disappeared up the chimneys of Drumcondra Railway Station as the exterior took on the appearance of Mecca during Haj !!

      Another almost crooked pecularity is the total lack of appreciation on the part of the Public Transport Authorities and the Gards of just how DANGEROUS it is to schedule several extra trains into this small station and then observe as these Trainloads of heaving,sweating humanity attempt to stuff themselves through the single narrow entrance/exit which leads out to the exact spot where the Buses are disgorging their equally heaving and sweating loads ..
      So BOTH groups are forced to push directly against each other before making the dash for freedom across Drumcondra Road…Planned…Approved…and no Doubt fully consulted for in PaC`s redevelopment plan…??

      When things get lively up at the station,we often see a Member deploying at Whitworth Road who then directs ALL traffic to turn left up towards Phibsborough.
      A grand idea EXCEPT for those Bus Routes (and the unfortunates on them) which are then sent off on a cross-country spin which can and has taken over 3 hours to redeem.

      In several years of witnessing this shyte,I have NEVER seen any Senior Bus Atha Cliath/City Council/Garda Officials actually on-site to take charge of what usually turns into a mess to be sorted out “Later”….

      Ok Noel..I offer you MY thanks for your efforts to pull back the all weather curtain and to reveal what lies `neath it.

      Now…I have to go to the loo…..”excuse me please…oopps sorry…the ice cream melted in the heat..i`ll get some tissues from the ticket office..don`t go away !!!” ๐Ÿ˜€

      OH and I almost forgot….during ALL of this…the MAIN function of the “Force” is to ensure the smooth functionality of the Surface Car Park operated in Clonliffe College which of course is entered and exited through that SINGLE gate to Drumcondra Road…..Now there`s where you WILL see eficiency in operation!!!!

    • #796782
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      ok. Can you not just walk from rail and bus termini in town like the rest of us? Must everyone park within say 3 km of the stadium? I myself got the 46A all the way from monkstown to Croker for the Ireland Wales game last year. No problem. For the evening games, walk from work on Baggot Street. Same for Lansdowne.

      And just imagine the chaos at eg Abbotstown for an evening soccer match – on yer way back from the jacks imagine it! And try not to step on my toes

    • #796783
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      how did we get from the burlington to living next door to croker (who the fuck is croker). maybe I came into the wrong cinema. Tear the old kip down (burlo, not croker. well…) and be done with it.

    • #796784
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @wearnicehats wrote:

      how did we get from the burlington to living next door to croker (who the fuck is croker). maybe I came into the wrong cinema. Tear the old kip down (burlo, not croker. well…) and be done with it.

      If a land owner or a house owner could make developments of apartments in his own land without all the hassle of DCC planning and huge cost there would be many many more flats and apartments in the area of Ballsbridge and surrounding area but the restrictions on all owners and developers mean there is a pent up demand for apartments in that area and that is the reason the Burlington site which has a commercial use can be torn down and replaced by flats or small offices.
      When the old kip as you call it comes down you will all be the losers.
      If owners could develop their premises as stated you would have a true market not the false market that now exists where negative equity beckons to every flat owner and the developer who paid the outragous price for the hotel already sees the writing on the wall and has shelved his plans.
      In the meantime he or his bankers is losing money by having so much capital tied up on false hope.
      Its not just him who will suffer but the whole country when the baloon goes up.
      I expect he is well covered but the property market may never recover from that madness that drove prices to the sky until reality sets in.
      You have to thank the planning laws for providing that window of hope for him by preventing other land owners from building to meet the needs of the market.
      But then I am forgetting that you guys make a living out of planning these mad cap ideas and liasing with your colleagues in DCC.

    • #796785
      admin
      Keymaster

      McNamara never gets it wrong; unlike some people a little closer to home.

      This scheme will do exceptionally well as between the Burlington/Allianz holding relief can be provided to the pent up demand for large floor plates in the Central Dublin office market.

      I very much doubt that his bankers are very worried at all given his covenant strength and the requirements in the market.

    • #796786
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      QUOTE Wearnicehats

      ” how did we get from the burlington to living next door to croker (who the fuck is croker).” END.

      It was easy enough to get here,certainly easier than using public transport to access Pairc an Crocaigh.
      NOG does have a point in askin after the planning methodology which allows a major redevelopment and expansion to an 80,000 capacity stadium without putting in place ANY dedicated Public Transport plan.

      It is somewhat infuriating to read the glossy bumph issued by Cumann Luachtcleas Gael PLC which waxes lyrical about DART/Luas/Bus connections as if they were an integral part of the Croke Park “Experience”.

      The reality is Vastly different and it is this reality which sees Big Days at Croke Park dissolve into a sea of Traffic Chaos EVERY time…:(

      Why was the Croke Park redevelopment allowed to proceed without any meaningful attempt to cater for the increased numbers AND the increased number of events which now include Floodlit events ?

      Thanks to the redoubtable NOG for his input into stimulating this particular spin-off !!!

    • #796787
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Alek I dunno. You are correct, and Lansdowne’s redevelopment is not accompanied by much either. However I’ve a feeling that Noel, correct me please if i’m wrong, was advocating a suburban greenfield site for a football stadium. Like his roads and car parks ideas, these are failed strategies that have been rejected outright by experience elsewhere.

      I’d also add that the sheer laziness people exhibit (those without mobility impairments of course) in having to drive to within a 5 minute walk of a football match is also to blame. Both croker and Lansdowne are within a 20 minute walk of O’Connell Bridge. ish

    • #796788
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Yo Alonso…I`m not shyt stirring for the sake of it,but I do feel that senior Planners at DCC`s level do have an opportunity to make REAL changes which can benefit many.

      Croke Park is a classic example of the Professional Planning input totally ending at the boundary line of the site.

      It`s not as if we don`t have precedent…we damn well do ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

      Probably one of the best planned and engineered mass movement excercises in Europe took place here in 1979 for the Papal Visit.
      This event far surpassed any mass transit operation in the State up until then.
      Since then Croke Park has had several events when the public Bus Service was utilized to the full as an aide to a successful operation.

      For some (No doubt Bizzarre) reason,Neil Diamond`s concerts and the Special Olympics remain in my mind as examples of how the Big Event and Bus Shuttles could be properly co-ordinated.

      Yet for some equally bizzarre reason these very succcessful examples are filed away and totally forgotten about for the remainder of the Croke Park year….Why ?

      The GAA have no business enticing people to DRIVE to Clonliffe College`s fields every match day,thus propagating the ever worsening conditions for everybody else who is NOT a Sports fan or who may simply have to live in the shadow of the Cusack Stand.

      DCC`s planning authorities have enough powers of suggestion to gently nudge the GAA in the direction of taking on some responsibility,how about a levy on each car entering Clonliffe`s Field which would then go to provide extra Bus Services to and from Rail Stations or strategically located supervised Park n Ride locations (Has to be more secure than Mountjoy Sq/Gardiner St/Dorset St etc,as the apres-match pools of shattered autoglass constantly illustrate)…

      Why..? Why..?….or does nobody in the upper reaches of DCC/Garda Siochana ever look at their area of responsibility with the same scathing critical eye as Noel O G… ๐Ÿ™‚ ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

    • #796789
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @Alek Smart wrote:

      Yo Alonso…I`m not shyt stirring for the sake of it,but I do feel that senior Planners at DCC`s level do have an opportunity to make REAL changes which can benefit many.

      Croke Park is a classic example of the Professional Planning input totally ending at the boundary line of the site.

      It`s not as if we don`t have precedent…we damn well do ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

      Probably one of the best planned and engineered mass movement excercises in Europe took place here in 1979 for the Papal Visit.
      This event far surpassed any mass transit operation in the State up until then.
      Since then Croke Park has had several events when the public Bus Service was utilized to the full as an aide to a successful operation.

      For some (No doubt Bizzarre) reason,Neil Diamond`s concerts and the Special Olympics remain in my mind as examples of how the Big Event and Bus Shuttles could be properly co-ordinated.

      Yet for some equally bizzarre reason these very succcessful examples are filed away and totally forgotten about for the remainder of the Croke Park year….Why ?

      The GAA have no business enticing people to DRIVE to Clonliffe College`s fields every match day,thus propagating the ever worsening conditions for everybody else who is NOT a Sports fan or who may simply have to live in the shadow of the Cusack Stand.

      DCC`s planning authorities have enough powers of suggestion to gently nudge the GAA in the direction of taking on some responsibility,how about a levy on each car entering Clonliffe`s Field which would then go to provide extra Bus Services to and from Rail Stations or strategically located supervised Park n Ride locations (Has to be more secure than Mountjoy Sq/Gardiner St/Dorset St etc,as the apres-match pools of shattered autoglass constantly illustrate)…

      Why..? Why..?….or does nobody in the upper reaches of DCC/Garda Siochana ever look at their area of responsibility with the same scathing critical eye as Noel O G… ๐Ÿ™‚ ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

      anybody can see that this was a rotten planning decision and it should have been made in consultation with the residents of the areas whose lives are totally disrupted every time a game is on.
      They have to endure touts, loud mouth louts, and much more for their lifetime while the GAA ‘charity’ gets rich.
      The land owners with the car park wont complain getting a tenner a shot every time there is a game.
      I smell a strong political hand forced this monstrosity on those people and paid a lot of public money in the process.
      All in all it is a total no go area and the poor country people who park on the streets only to have their cars vandalised by gurriers are more victims, all of which diminishes the quality of life of all due to lousy and corrupt planning when the obvious place for a stadium is on the outskirts of town or off the M50. That way all the country visitors Cork and Kerry mainly would have a better deal and safe parking and buses could be laid on for the Dubs.

    • #796790
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      see Alek I told you.

      Noel surely under your laws the GAA would have been able to do this without applying for permission?

    • #796791
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @alonso wrote:

      see Alek I told you.

      Noel surely under your laws the GAA would have been able to do this without applying for permission?

      If you read my posts you will see that I have called for planning reform not abolition.
      On developments that affect only a householder or a landowner who wants to build for himself on his own land that should be his business alone subject to keeping within the guidelines of 25 yards back from the road centre and no polluting the water courses, easy access etc, basic common sense guidelines that needed to be drawn up rather than stringent planning laws.
      If you live in a town or city and want to convert your house into a shop or flats why should you need permission if we live in a free state called a republic?
      On major infrastructural projects like Croke Park then there is the need for consultation with the neighbours who must be agreeable by a large majority.
      If it was up to the neighbours in Croker and Landsdowne I think that they would never have gotten off the ground for obvious reasons.
      If a home owner decided to convert his house into a bordello or a noisy factory there are many legal avenues that the aggrieved neighbour could take in the courts for disturbance.
      Dont tell me that the planning laws have prevented neighbours from hell. They have caused so much misery to many decent people who are forced to live beside those neighbours from hell in council houses up and down the country.
      Look at Ballymun and Limerick for example. That could never happen in a republic because there would be a supply laid on by land owners and developers to meet everyones needs and pocket book.
      If you look around Dublin even in up market areas there are small streets of cheaper houses in every area and they are today regarded as very desirable residences and fetch high prices but in their day they served the ordinary working man who could only afford a small rent. They were built mostly for renting by land owners.
      If you found yourself living next door to a family of gurriers you could move quickly to another. Find it today and ask the council to move you and wait and see how long they take.
      Many decent people were housed by councils only to have a complete dysfunctional tinker housed next door to them in the hope of rehabilitating the latter.
      What happened?
      The latter seems to have brought many decent families down to their level and now there is a plague of them.

      But I digress from Croke Park the modern equivalent of the Roman Colliseum and I feel sure that when Bertie Ahern entertains his pals in the VIP stands he deludes himself that he is a modern day emperor in the neoRoman republic. In a way he is and I’ll wager that he had a large hand in its development by twisting the arms of the planners who rejected it for the monstrosity it so manifestly is.
      Its lovely and handy for Bertie who can stroll down but for the rest of them. Let them eat cake.

    • #796792
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      interesting stuff. A few questions

      Would the 25 yard thing prevent developments such as a refurbishment of a house/office with direct street frontage? or small infill on an urban street?
      Are you aware that all planning laws stem from common sense in the first place? They’ve just evolved through the 20th century.
      Are you aware that the majority of Ballsbridge people did not oppose Lansdowne? I was at the oral hearing and heard them. And their elected representatives. There were aspects of it they opposed but only once did I hear anyone advocate an out-of-town site
      Did you know that noisy factories and bordellos are controlled already by planning laws?
      Do you believe bad neighbours are confined to local authority homes?
      Are you aware that one of the primary causes of poor neighbour relations are development such as extensions? In your Ireland this would be laissez faire causing more problems

      Not quite sure how to respond to the rest. So I won’t

    • #796793
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Croke Park is widely acknowledged as one of the best stadia in Europe. Personnally I really like the design. Its got an incredible atmosphere and the fact that its located in town is a huge part of this. Look at Cardiff or Marseille or many of the other stadia which share a city location.

      The atmosphere around the city is all part of the pageantry and sense of occasion that a real sporting event like the latter stages of the all Irelands especially should possess.

      Agreed the crowd control is often to the detriment of buses but its usually avoidable.

      A stadium located in the arse end of nowhere by the M50 is a nightmare scenario and its a shining example of the problem with all the developments you’re suggesting on this forum- ie car dependency!!!

      You’re giving out about traffic congestion and at the same time proposing a revised planning framework which puts road design as the primary criterion. Cities are for people not for cars. Same goes for houses built in the country side. The emphasis needs to be on creating quality living environments not quality driving environments.

    • #796794
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @alonso wrote:

      interesting stuff. A few questions

      Would the 25 yard thing prevent developments such as a refurbishment of a house/office with direct street frontage? or small infill on an urban street?
      Are you aware that all planning laws stem from common sense in the first place? They’ve just evolved through the 20th century.
      Are you aware that the majority of Ballsbridge people did not oppose Lansdowne? I was at the oral hearing and heard them. And their elected representatives. There were aspects of it they opposed but only once did I hear anyone advocate an out-of-town site
      Did you know that noisy factories and bordellos are controlled already by planning laws?
      Do you believe bad neighbours are confined to local authority homes?
      Are you aware that one of the primary causes of poor neighbour relations are development such as extensions? In your Ireland this would be laissez faire causing more problems

      Not quite sure how to respond to the rest. So I won’t

      The golden rule should be as our constitution defined it and that is giving the property owner his right to do as he will to his own property. You must remember that prior to the introduction of the planning laws in 1964 we all had that right respected and the planning laws took away all those rights and put them in the hands of bureaucrats. There was no referendum to the people and there was only a one sided debate by a Fianna Fail government that had a huge majority who trumpeted the ugly sign posts littering the countryside and other eyesores. They never explained how the property rights of people would be impaired and the country was in an economic mess anyway with emigration the main industry. Our political masters Dev and his mates who bankrupted the country to free us from the crown now wanted to take the place of the crown and nobody stood up to them.
      Our planning laws were developed by natural market supply meeting the demand and the courts were there to remedy any neighbour from hell.
      Take any land owner who cant build a house or even a farmhouse now without permission. He no longer owns his land if he cant build a home on it as he wishes and how he wishes. Thats what freedom is about.
      As for Lansdowne stadium I think that the people were just so used to the disturbance of the ground that the enlargement only provoked minimal objections. You can get used to a toothache and not notice it in time.
      In any case it is something that should be done in agreement with the majority of the people.
      You dont seem to understand that the main reason for bringing in these planning laws that control practically everything we do, is to keep control of the people in the hands of the authorities.
      Its all about control. We are a controlled society and anybody who thinks we are a free state would be hard pressed to tell the difference between Southern Ireland and any European state.
      We were once a republic of free people but not anymore. Thats a dream to be sung about in the pubs when you are drunk.
      Incidentally its our constitution that has prevented Bertie from signing us up to the European constitution. If he pulls that trick off with his referendum later this year, then we can light bonfires with the copies we have left.
      While our constitution has given us this last glimmer of independence the other Europeans dont have that freedom or right.
      As for reddy’s point about Croker being the last word in stadia that is just about the only bull the planners can say. Its avoiding the issue and blinding yourself to reality. Bullshit is a better word. The bullshitters will always have their answers but an honest man can recognise it a mile off and if you believe that Croker is brilliant you will believe anything. Its a game of football and why cripple the city and inconvenience all the country patrons whenever there is a game?

    • #796795
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      well at least I tried the reasoned approach once readers.

    • #796796
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Okay, I’m breaking my silence here in matter NOG to say: Alonso- do yourself a favour and let it go. You are, in effect, arguing with a child. Or at least with someone who possesses the logical subtlety of a child.

      Line 10: “I want it and I want it now!!”
      Line 20: “Well you can’t have it.”
      Line 30: goto Line 10
      Line 40: “Did you not hear me? I said No.”
      Line 50: goto Line 10

      As I said elsewhere in the past regarding a certain Mr S Metro- single issue candidates will be the death of this country.

    • #796797
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Noel, you must be able to type really quickly.

      I’m not trying to stir anything up with the next two questions, I’m just trying to get a feel of where your opinions are coming from, but do you live in Dublin (or other city) or are you out the country? And does your job involve a long commute during rush hours?

      I only ask, because that may well be the reason why you and I seem to have such a vastly different impression of the realities of life on the roads of Ireland.

    • #796798
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Noel,
      I’d just like to say I’m not a planner and also if you’re going to come on a forum like this have a bit of respect for other peoples opinion. Surely thats what you’re much trumpeted version of democracy and freedom is all about.

    • #796799
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @massamann wrote:

      Noel, you must be able to type really quickly.

      I’m not trying to stir anything up with the next two questions, I’m just trying to get a feel of where your opinions are coming from, but do you live in Dublin (or other city) or are you out the country? And does your job involve a long commute during rush hours?

      I only ask, because that may well be the reason why you and I seem to have such a vastly different impression of the realities of life on the roads of Ireland.

      I left Dublin city over thirty years ago because of the traffic. I knew lots of people who had done the same twenty years earlier for the same reasons.
      I live in the country and visit the city about once or twice a fortnight and as little as possible. I travel at off peak times when I do go there. Traffic management is a major problem for the city and its a problem thats here to stay no matter how much you wish to get people to come on foot or bicycle.
      Carless city dwellers must recognise that lots of people want to have cars and thats life. You cant stop them and its getting worse every year. Soon Gormley will bring in a congestion charge and rope off the city centre for another tax take so he can ride his bicycle in more comfort.
      He will get away with it when gridlock happens.
      With the elimination of Croker the city traffic congestion would be greatly relieved. Wth the six lane highway I proposed, that would free up the centre big time but these things will never happen because we have lost our freedom and development is dictated by dummies.
      In a free country nobody would build unless he could sell it on and provide easy access. Things would be spread out better rather than concentrating everything into the centres.
      Thats what zoning does to you.

    • #796800
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I should and do know better but….

      can we get those cinema seats from the other thread?

      Now Croker causes peak hour congestion! Damn them 8am All Ireland finals!
      Priceless. Almost as funny as this

      Quick Ashton Kutcher. It’s hidden behind those trees in Dartmouth Square!!!

    • #796801
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @alonso wrote:

      I should and do know better but….

      can we get those cinema seats from the other thread?

      Now Croker causes peak hour congestion! Damn them 8am All Ireland finals!
      Priceless. Almost as funny as this

      Quick Ashton Kutcher. It’s hidden behind those trees in Dartmouth Square!!!

      I’ve often laughed at the situation when I was stuck in traffice in the city and thanked the stars that I left it many years before.
      Seeing frustrated motorists wasting much of their lives in traffic jams every day, only for Matt Cooper and Dunphy there would be riots on the streets.
      Its no fun for them alonso but its planning people like you who are the problem because you just cant see the wood for the trees because you travel the same bus route day in day out.
      when someone like me gives you a suggestion and you cant win the argument you resort to name calling, then you try ridicule. The madness card has been played.
      Why not just face the facts and admit that you planners made a mess of it. The illness is terminal. Gridlock is coming unless radical change is accepted.
      That means sporting events and music concerts in venues that dont choke the city. The Sandymount by pass.
      Night time deliveries to businesses in the city centre. No trucks or large vans allowed on the roads in daylight hours. etc etc.
      Not to forget multi storey car parks on the perimeter of the centre such as Dartmouth square. That keeps the cars out of the centre and provides easy access and exits for a very small cost to all the hard pressed motorists.

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