Stephenson – poacher turned gamekeeper?
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I still would think that it should be left, as both a reminder and as a piece in itself.
Originally posted by GregF
architectural history books out so as to learn a bit about architectural heritage so as to appreciate it more.appreciated yes, recreated no. absolutely stupid to do that. progress is what’s needed not harping back to yonder years. ” why weren’t they great, they can build houses” f**k sake. it’s time do look to the future. this is what has dublin the kip it is. it’s a low level dirty city that most people dislike execpt for a few.
now i know i’m going to get abuse for that statement but it’s time someone woke you from your slumber. it’s a kip and while it is improving it has a long way to go and maybe when they were first built they might have been nice but not now. they are outdated, dull and contribute nothing to modern society.Wait a minute Greg, don’t you think Fin has a valid point. If you rebuild a Georgian House in 2004 it’s not a Georgian House, really. Is it?
Why would you want to hang on to something anyway that is so representational of the Empire?
the louvre is a different proposition than some georgian houses
and yes it is fairly low level and fairly dirty.Notjim, I think that was Le Corbusiers plan.
I hate the way when I look at some of those buildings on Stephens Green (East side) I look at them in the knowledge that they are not really georgian buildings. It does nothing for me and it really takes away from the experience of some of our other georgian buildings. I always now look at them with a little bit of doubt (except of course for the ones that are obviously original). I also have a strong admiring of those ones which look like patchwork quilts because of repairs which have been done to them over the years.
Well let’s say as has already being said it’s like replacing the missing leg of a fine old antique table. Would you replace it with tubular steel. The damage was done to 16 houses of a mile long street. In the context of the whole street it would be, I believe, the best solution if it were repaired with faithful replicas, (although I am totally against pastiche(see Gardiner Street)
In Europe for example after WW11 fine squares and streets which were partially damaged due to air raids/bombings were faithfully reconstructed, yet those that were obliterated were built anew in the then contemporary style. Let’s say then in this case that Fitzwilliam Street has been partially damaged.
I accept our colonial past, it’s a fact we Irish must accept as part of our history.
However, it does not justify the destruction of our architectural heritage that has been left to us.Paris is an interesting example, the building that has the cultural longevity there is still the Centre Pompidou, not Pei’s pyramid.
Paris has outstanding areas but some very repetative and frankly boring bits, usually where the 19th Century building have been recreated. The most succesful has been where dynamic new architecture compliments the old, in my view.
Why would you want to hang on to something anyway that is so representational of the Empire?
Because without it we’d have bugger all else of interest in this town – after independence we had a short bust of excellence followed by a downward spiral of dross and mediocrity which we are only really starting to drag ourselves out of. Never forget these buildings were built by Irish craftsmen.
it’s not our architectural heritage though and even though it was built by irish slave labour it still isn’t ours. so why not build something of interest that is ours and not try to recreate this rubbish.
you are beginning to think about what your saying now greg which is good. i am not trying to piss you off saying that but your previous rambling wasn’t convincing. you make some good points but i still think that it’s a mistake to put up replica’s of what is sadly inefficient design for today.Sorry Rory it’s not for me to say really………. but if you’re determined slag your city well that’s up to you.
A quick look at recent Irish Architecture Award books will confirm that you have some very, very good new buildings.
Sam Stephenson, Michael Scott, Ronald Tallon Peter and Mary Doyle et al are cultural influences to be cherished………….whether you like their work or not.
Fin, you just can’t dismiss it as rubbish, that is an innane remark. You come across as being rather cavalier and ignorant.
What would you propose then a few glitzy appartments and a Spar, more practical I suppose.Personally I have no problems with ESB HQ – what I do have a problem with is people still going on about the destruction of the Georgian vista etc etc etc. That was a long time ago. We need to move on. Let it go. It was a shame it happened – but time is a healer and to many people ESB HQ is as much part of Fitzwilliam St’s fabric as the Georgians on Mount St. We should be grateful to have the Georgian stock we still have and cherish it – not insult it with some pastiche facade covering ESB, pretending as though history never happened. It is 2004.
Well said d_d. You have said in a few sentences what I have been waffling about in a few different replies to this thread. I also think it would be an insult to both the originals and to the ESB HQ to put a new facade on it. GregF, with regards to your anolagy with antique chair, I think that if the georgian mile was absolute perfection originally of absolute uniformity than you might have had a point, but it was not perfect. I still enjoy, as I have always, looking down the Georgian mile. As a young person growing up I always remember wondering why the ESB building was different to the rest of them. However, I also took it for granted that it was part of it and have always admired it, if you see what I mean!?
People hark on about Georgian vistas etc…..because they were designed with the most fundamental tenet of urban design, with symmetry and focal points in mind…..which is why Modernism failed at times too. If you look at the rejuvenation of O’Connell Street these tenets or principles are being applied in a way …ie the positioning of the Spire, the specific landscaping and planting of trees and placement of furniture, the widening of the foothpaths etc… This is whats at the core of good urban design. A lot can be learned from such classical times that can be applied today (and not just in a pastiche Post Modernist sense or style)
The issue is not about retention or demolition or modern architecture or heritage.
In Glasgow, as I think also in Dublin, we have somehow to create an environment where excellence in urban design and architecture is expected. That’s what seems to happen in Scandanavia and northern Europe.
Bye the way, I’ve just been looking at the Opus Housing Awards and the Ardoyne Mews project by Design Strategies in Clyde Lane. For me, it is worth more than any Rebuilt Georgian infill.
cavalier but not ignorant greg. my point although lost(by me mostly) was not to put up some mock georgian rubbish to hide the fact that someone built something other than houses there. urban design is also about marking “landmarks” for orientation( term being used a lot recently to it’s demise as a significant marker of urban spaces) the uniformity of an entire street needs something to standout. while the esb pays respect to the street it is something completely different and i think completely suitable. the proportions are important but a new design can give proportions as well. and glitzy maybe but it doesn’t have to be. and a spar is more practical but i don’t think the green sign and red christmas tree would do anything of note to the streetscape.
alan is right there is a lot of good architecture going up and gone up recently and to now while we are moving forward take this approach ( which may be used as a dangerous precedent) is crazy.Quote “the uniformity of an entire street needs something to standout”
It has already, Holles St Hospital is the Landmark building on the Merrion Square end, and the Dublin Mountains on the Leeson St end.
Building a pastiche facade would serve no purpose other than to admit the original mistake. I think that a new facade could be the solution but exactly what style it should take I am unsure other than it would have to be contemporary and sympathetic. If such a thing is possible.
Originally posted by GregF
People hark on about Georgian vistas etc…..because they were designed with the most fundamental tenet of urban design, with symmetry and focal points in mind…..which is why Modernism failed at times too.Good point Greg. Trinity College is a good example of this. In saying this the Long Library and the GMB are of very contrasting styles architecturally which face opposite each other, as are the Dining hall and the 1937 Reading Room which also face each other. I think that the ESB does not take away from the symmetry of Fitzwilliam Street. As pointed out by Diaspora focal points are provided by the Mountains at one end and Holles Street at the other end. It seems that once there is some sort of symmetry and focal points (in the Trinity example the whole of parliament square, the Camponale, the Rubrics) that the composition works.
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