state of railing at Four Courts

The same can be said of the statues (ie Moses, etc) adorning the top of the building…….badly corroded almost so that I’d say they’d need to be replaced now. But sure is’nt it only a shell partially restored like the Customs House too…..it’s originality destroyed in our troublesome history. Maybe spend a few bob and give these buildings a proper overhauling and restore them in full…..well to a more reasonable standard……..It’s deserves more justice ….if ye pardon the pun.

I remember they did some work on the too ‘courtyards'(if thats the best word for them) a few years back. Very little in the way of imagination used and obviously not enough time given to the railings. A lot of these major buildings seem to suffer from a lack of grounds maintainence (see Custom House and Kings Inn). A bit of unkempt grass out the front – that should do it. Theres a fountain in front of the Custom House thats never on. The trees on Beresford Place are so overgrown and of balanace that they ruin the views of the facade and the powers that be might consider taking down the railings completely and letting the area become a public green space (it being the Nation’ds property and all).

I think this fashion for removing railings from railed spaces is madness. Sure open the gates, but do not remove the railings, the buildings need the railings as a buffer zone at night etc otherwise we’ll have people pissing and puking against the walls of these buildings.

I dont know about that, every time I walk past Bank of Ireland on college green I cant help thinking of that amazing space without the railings, filled with people sitting on the steps and standing around chatting. It would be great to see the corpo do something about that, and there would be sufficient amounts of people passing by to discourage vandilism etc..

That sounds nice but it would lead to the banks area becoming grotty and rather dirty in appearance, sure did’nt they fence off the Central Bank because of that. Much better to preserve the Bank of Ireland rather than letting it be subjected to such.

the railing sshould be left sa they are. has anyone seen the poor ‘civic space ?’ left after the removal of the railins in front of the chapel on church st.? some things are best left ‘unimproved’. does anybody know whose bright idea that was?

sorry about my very poor spelling and grammar.

I don’t know how anyone can see the errection of the railings outside the central bank as a good idea not only because they are ugly but they have changed the plaza/civicspace and steps in front where all those “interesting” looking people hung out from the lively vibrant space that it was to a place with less importance within the centre of our city to say the least.
The space there was like a gift to the people of the city only to be taken back to be replaced by some ugly railings.It doesn’t really surprise me though that a bank could be mean and greedy so even if it migh be a good idea to create a public space in college green by removing railings I could never see it hapening if its owned by who it is owned by even if I agreed with the proposal,personally I’d prefere to see the railings taken down at the central bank but I never expect to see it. I’ll just walk past and every time I do reminice about the good ould days until the day I die but then again its what we all do if not there in many other places.

RE Central Bank Negativity
Same kind of thing happened with the Llyods building in london. If you look at the sketches and initial proposals for the building, the public were to have access to the building, using the Lower floors for shops cafes meeting places etc
But then at sometime after being use like this for a while, the corporate controlleres decided to remove this positive and humanising gesture.
Banks have traditionally been elitist, protective, outwardly negative…. having a tectonic phsychological sign… “KEEP OUT UNLESS YOU’RE RICH”
Yes we can be dissapointed at this degradation of the public realm within the city but……
Why should we be surprised at this move by the central bank ??

Have to agree about the Central Bank. The railings and associated ‘structure’ on this plaza look terrible. They completely take away from the effect of the building. I think the idea of a ‘colouful’ meeting area in front of this most ‘conservative’ of institution is positive.

Well I think the restrictions to access in Lloyds was caused by terrorisn threats during the ‘Troubles’………..good luck tryin’ to get in there with a Fenian accent!

regarding the central bank railings……what a disaster, they have destroyed the ONLY public space in Dublin that functions as a public space should, a place to sit, to meet, to pass through etc. it seems a ‘public space’ in dublin now consists of an area of land where things can happen-but only once a day/week/year, and they generally contain enough seating for about 10 people. the plaza at central bank really was unique, the contrast between the institution of the bank and the crowd in the square is what city life should be about, rather than about trying to make things frictionless.

(Ok just getting use to this icon stuff)

PDVZ can I join you in your utopian society? If you did remove the railings from around the Bank of Ireland on College Green those lovely porticos would be filled with the usual winos and down & outs that unfortunately cover our streets with cardboard every night. Ever gone by the Customs House at night lovely place filled with heroin addicts and piss flowing everywhere. Also if you notice the area inside the raillings of the Banak of Ireland is one of th few places in the city not covered in Chewing Gum stains (the scourge of the streets) perhaps when Joe Soap Dubliner has enough respect for their city and environment then we could open up areas to them.

Just came back from Brussells, where they actually look after the homeless – only saw one person out begging during a week there – perhaps we could follow the continental model (rather than the f*** ’em US model)

To be honest I’m not very familiar with the customs house at night but I do know that it’s never a busy place. However I do live behind the four courts and have noticed that inspite of the population of homeless people in Ireland expanding by 600% there is never homeless people sleeping behind the columns, this is simply because of the Gardai moving the homeless on from here as they may be more embarrased in the bridewell as to their locality than the gardai in store street who are obviously not hypocritical enough to move homeless people on from the customs house! This is why homeless people always slept behind the columns of St Marys church on the quays. This is however not possible anymore as it has been blocked off with crude black gates because of the vandalism you reffered to. So your absolutely right these areas do ruined if unsupervised but it also shows that if the gardai werent so lazy they would be able to herd these unfortunates on like they do at the four courts, and the millenium bridge if theres lots of tourists about! And being familiar with the lovely Brussels that is precisly the reason why you dont see any homeless people about, because they have an active and quite brutal police force, modelled on the french style. Not because there is plenty of short term hostel space for homeless people. So your right, why give the people of Dublin spaces where they can come to terms with a european style good faith society! theyve never been given the oppurtunity so why bother at all. Also the square outside the Bank of Ireland always functioned v. well as far as I have seen in the past, it was one of the only vibrant public areas in the city. i apologise for the bad grammer.

[This message has been edited by pvdz (edited 22 November 2001).]

[This message has been edited by pvdz (edited 23 November 2001).]

[This message has been edited by pvdz (edited 26 November 2001).]

Here’s an old one….. aaah I remember….

Anyhow I noticed a planning application (maybe a grant actually) for resoration and repair of the gates of the Four Courts. About time wouldnt you say

The Application is to install railings across the Portico of the Four courts. Pity.

Just found this – a bit more information
http://www.tuppenceworth.ie/blog/2005/06/four-courts-planning-objection.html

Your link LOB sums it up perfectly. This is a disgrace, not only because of the impact on the architecture of the building, but the symbolic and working importance that this entrance has. From victims making statements beneath the great portico, to families and friends gathering in the magnificent demilune space Gandon carved out behind, to citizens declaring victory or defeat in testing the Constitution, this space is often centre-stage in the workings of this building and the Irish judicial system.

The very idea of putting railings across here, let alone sealing off the entrance completely is a criminal offence in itself.
This entrance and this space, with people milling around the great columns is central to how the Four Courts operates. and is almost as iconic as the building itself.
Had Gandon’s plans been properly realised with a projecting temple-like portico it would hold even greater importance.

Far too often our older buildings are being closed off and set in amber for tourists to snap at but not to touch. There is nothing sadder than structures railed up or entrances sealed off, especially a central, dominant entrance like the Four Courts.
This will, as mentioned in the link, become nothing more than dead space stuffed with crisp packets, cans and genrral litter, that regardless of homeless people will have to be regularly cleared out.

I have great admiration for the OPW’s work, as most of us do, but how dare they even consider this.
It shows a blatent disregard for the building and the people who use it.

@Former Chief Justice Hugh O’Flaherty wrote:

Frank Feeley, recently retired as Dublin City Manager, could take justifiable pride in the renewal of the area around the Four Courts where we sit which leads me as I pen these lines on the occaision of the bicentenary, of the completion of that Gandon Masterpiece – which has been an inspiration to judges and advocates over the decades but which also, of course, takes pride of place as the country’s chief architectural treasure.

Hugh O’Flaherty
The Supreme Court
Four Courts
Dublin 7

6 November 1996

@Thomond Park wrote:

Hugh O’Flaherty
The Supreme Court
Four Courts
Dublin 7

6 November 1996

Source (Forward) Irish Planning Law & Procedure [1997] Galligan Eamon, Dublin, Roundhall Sweet & Maxwell 1st Ed

So they’re railing off the portico instead of getting a couple of guards to do their jobs by moving the homeless people on from the steps of the mosy inportant public building in the country. Jesus.
Anyway, whatever about the aesthetic issues, I think Graham Hickey’s point about the ‘symbolic and working importance’ of the building is probably moot, seeing as the courts are to be replaced by a new complex in Parkgate Street.
The new building will house the central and circuit criminal courts and the Four Courts will be relegated to civil cases and/or family law.
I doubt very much that there will be a public space fronting onto the street like the Fourt Courts portico. And McDowell wants underground access for prisoners, so the poor dears will be protected from the prying lenses of the press. The Minister doesn’t seem to like the bit in the Constitution about the justice being done in public. Possibly because sometimes it makes him look bad…

What is most bizarre about the application is that the only grounds cited have been ‘security concerns’ and yet the short-term plan is to move the Central Criminal Court and Court of Criminal Appeal to the newly agreed Courts buildings at Imfirmary Road. Given that it would be possible to have the criminal element out of this building within 2 years I am interested to know what civil cases have produced incidents that presented a real security risk to the occupants of the Four Courts?

Well I read an article last Christmas that stated that there would be no access through the main entrance any more, and that all access would be through the Chancery Lane entrance. As well as this members of the public would have to go through metal detectors. The idea is that the security facilities would be to difficult to fit just inside the main entrance area.

Its so typical of this country, destroy something speical and then think about the tradition or icon we have lost, so people can lament it on a website like this. Could you imagine London suggesting the idea “we are going to move the Old Baily”. Its ridiculus to close the access, a thoughtfull design involving security could be done if there was a will. Moving all of the criminal courts is also a betrayle of the Four Courts history.

That is entirely correct the entire reason given for these works is ‘security concern’ which is pathetic considering that all the criminal element will be removed as soon as the Infirmary Road complex which has been fully acknowldeged as the next major courts location is opened in the next couple of years. In the greater scheme of things this security risk could be described as no more than a fleeting concern as the building will be entirely a civil law facility within a very short timeframe if the same agency proposing these works get their act together. 🙁

What this measure will serve to do is eliminate this buildings 209 year relationship with the river which is the buildings context and in media terms dramatic quality. There is something very special about entering the Four Courts from Inns Quay which is in pedestrian terms a quiet stretch of Quay into a large crowd of theatrically dressed and vocal people. It is one of those unique Dublin experiences and the side entrance simply doesn’t acheive anything similar.

@crestfield wrote:

all access would be through the Chancery Lane entrance.

Side access is provided from Chancery Place or Chancer Place as the street sign now reads, one would wonder if the sign inspired this scheme? :confused:

@Graham Hickey wrote:

There is nothing sadder than structures railed up or entrances sealed off, especially a central, dominant entrance ….

They included some photos of sealed up entrances in the planning app. You are right – they do look sad.

I’m surprised that there seems to have been no objections filed. I know I was asleep on this one but NOBODY objected!??

Anyway I guess the good news is that the concrete paving is to be replaced with Irish granite. And in more enlightened times the railings can be removed comparatively easily.

@Lotts wrote:

the good news is that the concrete paving is to be replaced with Irish granite.

You’d have to ask why bother – who’s going to be around to appreciate it? Ironically there won’t even be homeless people left to enjoy it, let alone court users.

Haven’t been able to get to Dublin in the past week to inspect the file, but surely AT with their planning expertise are down on this scheme like none other?

No written submissions have been published in the online file. If there were any objections I don’t see them!
Application # is 2706/05.

Two’pence worth indicated that there is massive opposition to it in all the libraries so I’m sure someone put something in

I’m the Editor of Tuppenceworth.ie.

As you’ve seen, we’ve been running something of a small campaign in opposition to the alterations to the portico. I am very pleased that this has been under discussion on these fora as well.

To clarify what some posters have said, security concerns have not been cited as the reason for the installation of railings across the portico. According to the letter on the City Council’s file from Liz Hughes, Architect, addressed to the Principal Officer of Dublin City Council’s Planning Department the railings are to be installed because the portico space “gives rise to additional litter and occasional graffiti. Because of this use, the portico has to be washed down each morning, and sometimes obstruction occurs in the mornings.”

This is a plan to alter the main frontage of one of Ireland’s most admired buildings, as well as symbolically alter the relationship between the Justice system and the citizens it represents, because Courts Service officials don’t like tidying up the porch in the morning.

The installations of railings will not even succeed in meeting that ignoble aim. There will still be room behind the columns where homeless people may sleep. The space behind the railings will become dead space, full of crispbags and litter. And it seems perverse that the solution to intermittent obstruction of a door is to permanently close it to all comers.

The most recent state of play is outlined in this thread, which I put up before finding this discussion. If anyone has any ideas as to what course of action might be pursued usefully next, I would be delighted to hear them at smcgarr@gmail.com.

Thanks again.