Senator McSharry – defender of democratic purity
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Rory,absolutly spot on,
That change more than anything else has made the difference between ‘serious interference’ and ‘proper planning’ of course some poor schemes will slip through but at least there is an objective and independent 2nd stage adjudicator.
I think that both Alan and Devin are missing the point on An Taisce, it is the function of An Taisce to articulate the ‘heritage perspective’ for schemes, it is up to An Bord Pleannalla to decide which is the over-riding priority, new space or retention of a building.
It would be wrong of An Taisce not to make the case but just because they make a case doesn’t mean that it is automatically the deciding criteria.
Diaspora, my old friend. It’s you who is missing the point.
The heritage perspective is being articulated, without regard to all the physical and tangible considerations that have to be considered. An Taisce, if they are going to be taken seriously by people like me have to know this and not bury their head in the sand
At present, within the existing indigenous housing that makes up the historic footprint. it is possible to make your breakfast, turn on the light switch and stoke the fire without leaving your bed, so small are the houses.
People need to have their bins emptied and have central heating and a place to park their car. Service vehicles, fire engines, ambulances, electricity providers who need 24 hour access need to be accomodated. They need sunlight and air.
The developer needs to make money, unless An taisce can underwrite the work or public funds can be provided………. other wise they won’t do it and why should they?
now, i’m not going to say much as i am well loved by these ‘defenders of our quality of life’….ha,ha…
Originally posted by Devin
Nobody is saying commercial development is not legitimate, and that is the no. 1 myth about heritage organisations (that they are against development). On the contrary most want to see excellent development that benefits the environment & soceity. Sadly there’s only a tiny minority of that in Ireland – & most of it is featured in the pages of the yearly architectural awards journals.so anything not on the awards list is shit and therefore shouldn’t be allowed…. WHAT!!!!! jesus man, do u actually believe the bollox u are talking.
Originally posted by Devin
As far as I remember, the An Taisce spokesperson – quoted in the paper at the time your development was refused – acknowledged that you had done good work in Scotland and elsewhere, and made it clear that this was not about architecture or development per se, but that the proposal was out of scale for a historically sensitive area of Sligo Town.ha,ha…enough said…u crack me up devin..u truly do…
Originally posted by Devin
You are throwing up details here in support of your development such as: “we were depending on the adjoining development to make a connection through from one side of the town to the other and new wynd and pedestrian walkway ……….the link has been lost and now both projects have been scuppered”. What is anybody supposed to make of that who hasn’t analysed the relative planning applications, doesn’t know the site or doesn’t even know Sligo town?i think alan didn’t quite put it strong enough…read and understand before u comment….
Originally posted by Devin
I would love to see GM & AD do something in this town, and I hope something can be worked out for that site eventually.i must say, nicely sucked up there….u must want to become a politician…VOTE FOR DEVIN!!! ha,ha….
Originally posted by alan d
Diaspora, my old friend. It’s you who is missing the point.don’t mind Diaspora, he wrote that when he was pissed last night (i know cos i was talking to him earlier)
The heritage perspective is being articulated, without regard to all the physical and tangible considerations that have to be considered. An Taisce, if they are going to be taken seriously by people like me have to know this and not bury their head in the sand
At present, within the existing indigenous housing that makes up the historic footprint. it is possible to make your breakfast, turn on the light switch and stoke the fire without leaving your bed, so small are the houses.
People need to have their bins emptied and have central heating and a place to park their car. Service vehicles, fire engines, ambulances, electricity providers who need 24 hour access need to be accomodated. They need sunlight and air.
The developer needs to make money, unless An taisce can underwrite the work or public funds can be provided………. other wise they won’t do it and why should they?
Seriously though, I don’t think it is fair of you to paint anybody who would like to see that building retained as unrealistic or daft.
France and Britain are full of beautiful historic towns and villages who manage to keep AND use their historic buildings, and get on with modern life with no particular problems.
In my area (dublin city), the planning authority has just produced a study – http://www.dublincity.ie/services/building.htm – on this very subject; Comparing reuse of older buildings with their demolition and new build in environmental, economic and cultural terms. In many of the case studies taken, the report finds in favour of reuse & rehabilitation.
Well yeah, but the area of Sligo we are talking about is derelict, we would be reinstating a historic foot print, that never existed that would not meet the requirements of how people live today.
That is the point I was trying to make with Venice, one of the worlds most beautiful and characterful cities but you could not recreate it Devin because it compromises all and every building regulation and planning policy which currently exists, from light, access, living spaces, servicing…..and I’ll tell you people looking into your bedroom from three metres away would soon get on yer nerves.
Have a great weekend. Diaspora, you too mate.
Originally posted by alan d
Diaspora, my old friend. It’s you who is missing the point.The heritage perspective is being articulated, without regard to all the physical and tangible considerations that have to be considered. An Taisce, if they are going to be taken seriously by people like me have to know this and not bury their head in the sand
The developer needs to make money, unless An taisce can underwrite the work or public funds can be provided………. other wise they won’t do it and why should they?
Sorry I missed your later post……
But the way it would appear to work is a mix of the following, work being optional because a lot of the time there are decisions that are hard to understand.
1> Heritage considerations are a major factor particularly in regional town centres, it is the function of An Taisce to articulate this in the planning process.
2> Urban design quality is a major consideration and it is up to the architect to articulate this in the form of the drawings. Your scheme had this no question about it.
3> A certain level of construction activity is required to keep the economy turning, but I don’t feel that any particular developer has a right to build for this reason alone.
It is in my opinion a question of balancing the three factors above to get to the bigger picture.
Being completely honest you were treated very badly in Sligo, I have never heard of a ‘protected structure’ being protected whilst a planning application was being assessed.
I very much doubt that the owner of the site would have put forward this scheme had the ‘Teeling House’ been a protected structure when you were retained.
As the entire planning process in Ireland is quasi-legal the principle of ‘precedent’ is binding, it is for this reason that An Taisce would have objected.
Had the Councillors not listed the ‘Teeling House’ I think that your scheme would have been built. If it were not a protected structure I would have been happy to see your scheme built, because Sligo would have had a high quality building and no poorly executed copies would have followed. It would have raised the bar for any town centre development in Sligo.
I am also going to Sligo tonight for the weekend
Lads,
All this sounds very interesting, but to be honest I’m having to imagine the scenario…any chance of before/after drawings being posted…for both schemes? Or is there somewhere I can look at them?
ALAN_D…what was the architectural quality of the first scheme like?…the actual quality…you mention that this area is pretty much
The idea of the second scheme requiring a pedestrian link from the first makes me imagine that the first was on a main street, whereas the second was in backlands. This suggests two things…
1. The urban affect of the first scheme would probably have a large impact on the overall quality/impression of the second (if it is its main access)
2. Quite possibly the first scheme is more important than your scheme from Sligo’s POV as it would be seen/used by more people if it is on a more main street.
3. Therefore your scheme being great simply isn’t good enough reason for the go-ahead for the first scheme…I mean, for all the Planners know, your scheme might never happen for financial reasons or whatever and Sligo would be stuck with the first scheme.If a building was protechted mid-design, that’s particulary bad luck…I’m a bit rusty here, who lists/delists buildings? Do the councillors have a say??
ALAN_D…if I read correctly, you are working in Scotland, and aren’t Irish? Perhaps just to explain the attitude of some of the others…Ireland has a pretty dreadful attitude to conservation/heritage/environment…refer to the recent posting by DC3…he gets it right…heritage in Rep Ireland just isn’t held in a high place. YOU’RE coming from Scotland/UK where all those things are held in FAR HIGHER esteem than here. Personally I would probably rather see no development happen, than see development happen PURELY BECAUSE THE AREA IS RUNDOWN…ie a ‘something is better than nothing’ attitude. This is just simply incorrect most of the time.
Take for example the Dublin quays…the planners in their wisdom in the 80s/90s granted various ZOE developments that are simply dreadful (some have more-than-Venetian design of windows about 1m away from a wall!). This was done because it was felt that that would ‘bring the area up’. So now, 10/20 years later, we are left with shitty quays that will probably be there for another few hundred years. IF or some of the original buildings had been left, interspersed with good quality architecture, obviously that would have been so much better (the ZOE schemes take up entire city blocks)…or if a whole block of a city, onto its most important aspect (the river) is to taken over by a scheme, the very least that should happen is that scheme should be top class…and that would have happened sooner or later…I would far rather the planners had simply bid their time until a sufficiently decent (i’m not talking world-class or anything here) scheme came along, even if the existing buildings had to deteriorate for another 10/20 years…because it’s going to be around for a LONG LONG time.
Perhaps the same with this case…in 2 years time, another scheme will be submitted, will be far superior, Alan_d’s scheme will go ahead and the citizens of Sligo town will experience quality architecture for the next several generations…for the sake of 2 years or whatever.
The adjoining developer has written in the local press that he is so annoyed at the way he has been treated that he’s finished with the whole thing and is walking away.
Of course he’s going to say that…that’s how things work…getting the people, gets the councillors, gets the pressure on the planners…
As Diaspora says…An Bord Pleanála are grown up boys now…they can make up their own minds…An Taisce simply used their expertise and submitted a report…in a court case, would you expect one side not to have their barrister plead their side of the case? It’s for the judge/jury then to decide. The barrister isn’t the one you should be blaming for a bad decision (as you see it)…that’s the judge. The people to blame are ABP, and whoever decided to suddenly protect the Teeling House…not An Taisce.
Just back from Sligo,
It was great the place has many good things going for it, you really get the feeling that this was once a very important town from the distance of some of the Georgian/Early Victorian terraces that still remain.
Sadly there is also quite a bit of dereliction down there, some stuff that could be restored but some more that appear to have been sites for quite a while.
If McSharry was any use he would have got the local Councillors to fast-track local area plans dealing with each building on a specific basis.
Yeah, it’s pretty good I admit Devin. Somehow I’m still not getting my main point across though.
Yee haw, such a lot of questions and good points made, it’s not our scheme though that had a roasting from An bord pleanala or An Taisce it was a neighbouring developer.
His site joined onto ours and formed half the new route from one side of Sligo to the other, opening up of the historic lanes and the fast track local area plans, Diaspora .
Ours was the beginning of new route but because the neighbouring developement has been knocked back, we have had to withdraw for a second time.
The point is that the neighbouring developer was in discussion with An Taisce, had brought in conservation specialists to handle the difficult negotiations with the conservation lobby, had made concessions and kept buildings originally earmarked for removal, got full planning permission and was still kicked up the arse by An bord Pleanala, and is back to the start……….. without his 200 pounds.
We have also had to go back to the start. Diaspora, how the fuck did it ever get this far?
Oh, and before I forget, this is significant Yee Haw, I think looking at it from a non Irish perspective.
When our neighbour received full planning permission, having been in discussion with An Taisce for two years and made concessions and cut his scheme in half, having been knocked back already over the retention of Teeling House our client has a choice either to forget it and ditch two years of work or re submit our scheme this time with Teeling House retained.
Our client has already spent a considerable amount of money (and I have spent half my life seems like stuck behind a feckin tractor driving from Belfast to Sligo) but decides to re submit, I mean everything looks positive, as far as he and we can tell.
However, the neighbouring developer gets the most critical rejection from an appeal body that I have ever read and officially listed are only two objectors to his scheme , one is a local man whose house will be effected and the other is An Taisce.
It’s like the twilight zone.
Alan, can you post a link to the ABP decision?
Its not amongst the recent significant decisions on their site so without the file number its hard to find the “the most critical rejection from an appeal body” and read it for ourselves.Thanks
http://www.pleanala.ie/REP/206/R206892.DOC
Vinnyfitz, my comment about critical rejection is from a scottish perpective and refers to similar situations in my own country and relevant documents prepared by our own planners and Historic Scotland.
This is the first An Bord Pleanala document I’ve studied and who knows maybe this is quite tame
too much for ya, vinny?
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