Revised Part L published

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    • #709778
      sinnerboy
      Participant

      Just spotted that the minister published the regs on Christmas Eve

      http://www.environ.ie/en/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/PublicConsultations/

      Note

      1. From end March this year all boilers ( new and replacement ) to be min 86%effiecient . I wonder how this will pan out . How many boiler kits will be scrapped ? How many will be used anyway ?

      2. Relatively short transition period . Regs take effect from 01 July 08. If PP is applied on or by 30 June 08 and works are substiantially complete by 30 June 09 – works will be exempt . Those who have been involved in building procurement for any length of time will see that this will have a practical affect of almost no transitional period . Better to get with the plan now

      I e mailed a query just now to the DOE as to when we can expect a revised TGD Part L . Will post response when recieved

    • #796973
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      clarification I received from SEI . no answer from DOE yet as to when revised
      TGD L 2008 will issue

      “The HARP database is a resource for new and existing dwellings therefore it will continue to display all products regardless of seasonal efficiency.

      The HARP website will be updated to include information on the new Part L requirement in the next week.

      The DEAP methodology is currently being reviewed to include amendments made in the Building Regulations Part L 2007, and it will be published as soon as possible after TGD L 2008 is published.”

    • #796974
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Are the revised regs requiring any proof that a DEAP calculation has been done to show compliance with part L???
      ie a calculation print out etc???

    • #796975
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      glad to hear new regs will be introduced so swiftly, no point beating around the bush wit a topic like this.

      On another point with regard guidelines etc. does anyone have a copy of know where to get a copy of the DoEHLG guidelines for sight lines in rural areas? ie for an 80 km road what is the required clear visibility left and right when exiting the site. I have tried my local county council, dept of DoE; transport etc even an Bord Pleanála.
      Was onto Bord Pleanála yesterday as many of their refusals are based on the site not satisfying the ‘DoEHLG guidelines for visibility / sightlines’ yet they do not seem to have a copy!

      any help would be greatly appreciated as i’m currently looking at a site and would prefer to have all my bases covered before investing further time and money in it.

      regards,

      macm

    • #796976
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      macm, one of the core documents used by roads design engineers is “Roads Geometry Handbook” by NRA, DoEHLG publications, Dec 2000. I dont think this is up on the net…. it cost roughly €150 a few years ago.

      Many county development plans will have suggested sightlines for different grades of roads….
      eg Laois County Council Roads Design have the following document: refer to page 6
      http://www.laois.ie/media/Media,3263,en.pdf

    • #796977
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      cheers henno

      macm

    • #796978
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @henno wrote:

      Are the revised regs requiring any proof that a DEAP calculation has been done to show compliance with part L???
      ie a calculation print out etc???

      no – from SI 854 2007

      L2 For new dwellings, the requirement of L1 shall be met by:
      (a) providing that the energy performance of the new dwelling
      is such as to limit the calculated primary energy consumption
      and related CO2 emissions insofar as is reasonably practicable,
      when both energy consumption and CO2 emissions
      are calculated using the Dwelling Energy Assessment Procedure
      (DEAP) published by Sustainable Energy Ireland;

      BUT if challenged , then you would have to produce DEAP calcs I reckon

      From SI 666 2006

      “(2) A person who offers for sale or letting (whether in writing or otherwise)—
      (a) a building of a class referred to in subparagraph (a) or (b) of paragraph (4)
      construction of which commences on or after such date specified for that class
      in the said subparagraphs, hereinafter referred to as a ‘new building’, or
      (b) on or after 1 January 2009, a building that is in existence on or before 1
      January 2009,
      and any agent acting on behalf of such person in connection with such offering, shall
      produce a printed copy of the BER certificate and advisory report in relation to the
      building to any person expressing an interest in purchasing or taking a letting of the
      building and, on demand, to the building control authority in whose functional area the
      building is situated.”

      no mention of calcs

    • #796979
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      The DEAP calculations need to be done, probably, prior to commencement….. the BER is done after completion, which would be too late to calculate compliance with regs.
      I think the simplest way for certifiers to enact this is to either (a) do a course in DEAP or (b) engage a BER assessor to do a prelim BER assessment after the construction method is selected.

      The days of just looking into a cavity and checking off insulation is gone…. thank god!

    • #796980
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Don’t t think we are differing here henno

      BUT
      The only time DEAP calcs HAVE to be done is at point of sale or letting . If sale or letting “off plans” – as follows – DEAP calcs are needed to provide provisional BER Cert . If house exists – DEAP calcs are needed to provide BER cert .

      This all arises out of SI 666 2006 – not B Regs

      I think some who don’t keep up to date will still issue certs (compliance wit b regs ) based on elemental u values and max 25% glazing ……. ( but maybe I’m wrong )

    • #796981
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      But i was under the impression that, under these new regs about to come in in July, that a dwelling cannot be certified to comply with Part L unless a DEAP calculation is done on it???
      Thats what it states in the new SI……… maybe im picking it up completely wrong….

      I agree totally with what you are posting, and i know ive had this argument on another forum, but the compliance with Part L, as calculated using DEAP, is completely separate to the BER certificate calculations, even though the same software is used.

      Any certifier that certifies without using DEAP will be incorrect. How will they prove a 40% efficient in CO2 emissions without using DEAP?? Also that 25% glazing reg is flexible when other elemental u values are taken into account.

    • #796982
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @macm wrote:

      cheers henno

      macm

      This has the visibilities. It’s for the design speeds. Any development plan I’ve seen has their own standards which are pretty much universal anyway, based on speed limits

      http://www.standardsforhighways.co.uk/dmrb/vol6/section2/td4295.pdf

    • #796983
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Two sets of regs

      Reg 1
      SI 666 2006 is the Irish response to EPBD . It requires BER certs – prepared using DEAP
      Effective dates are

      At point of sale or letting ….

      for new dwellings effective date 01 01 07 ( BUT transitional – PP on or by 31 12 06 – substantial completion 30 06 08 – exempt ) . I think this is the date you are thinking of ?

      for new buildings not dwellings 01 07 08 ( ( BUT transitional – PP on or by 30 06 08 – substantial completion 30 06 10 – exempt )

      for all existing buildings – 01 01 09 THIS is when assessors will become VERY busy ( IF SEI get there act together and agree methodology and issue software in time )

      Reg 2

      SI 854 2007 is the new Part L ( TGD still awaited )
      effective date 01 07 08 ( transitional – PP on or by 30 06 08 – substantial completion 30 06 09 – exempt )
      Revised DEAP will be required to calculate energy requirements / CO2 emmisions – ( to rates to be set out in TGD L 2008 when it issues )

    • #796984
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I’m completely confused – I thought these new regs were only to do with boiler efficiency.

    • #796985
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @wearnicehats wrote:

      I’m completely confused – I thought these new regs were only to do with boiler efficiency.

      NO – revised Part L ( Thermal Insulation Building Regulations) – for dwellings

      Boilers is only tiny part of it – kicking in first

    • #796986
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      sight lines at entrances to primary and national roads on

      Recommendations for Site Development Works for Housing Areas. Department of the Environment and Local Government
      http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Housing/FileDownLoad,2451,en.pdf

    • #796987
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Is it just me or is anyone else not surprised that apart from henno the only inputs have taken the thread off topic ?

    • #796988
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Part L Regulations can be satisfied by showing that the calculated CO2 emissions per annum (kg CO2 /m2/per annum) for an actual dwelling, as designed and constructed, are less than the calculated annual emissions for a similar reference dwelling.

      Any building sent for planning after 1 July 2006 need to demonstrate CDER complies with the max permitted figures. CDER + MCDER are calculated by DEAP.

    • #796989
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @keating wrote:

      Part L Regulations can be satisfied by showing that the calculated CO2 emissions per annum (kg CO2 /m2/per annum) for an actual dwelling, as designed and constructed, are less than the calculated annual emissions for a similar reference dwelling.

      Any building sent for planning after 1 July 2006 need to demonstrate CDER complies with the max permitted figures. CDER + MCDER are calculated by DEAP.

      Yes, and the new revised upcoming regulations must show at least 40% efficiency greater than the MPCDER.

      I would be interested to know exactly what percentage of dwellings certified under current part L were calculated using the DEAP software. I would think it would be a tiny percentage.

    • #796990
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @keating wrote:

      Any building sent for planning after 1 July 2006 need to demonstrate CDER complies with the max permitted figures. CDER + MCDER are calculated by DEAP.

      When are the DEAP calcs needed and for whom? Sorry , rhetorical question . Hundreds of codes of practices and calcucations methods are referenced in TGD’s . It is not the routine practice for them to be required at planning . ( Soil tests and calcs for drainage excepted ) Or even at commencement notice time . What do you honestly expect the local building control to be able to with DEAP calcs print outs ? Even if they are looked for .

      Designers OUGHT to be using DEAP ( same as any other pertinent design codes ) . But with self certification / no meaningful ( I mean compared to UK for example ) building control regime I think in practice designers will find they wont HAVE to .

      I reckon the only time DEAP calcs will be required ( I mean in a quasi enforcement sense ) will be at BER time – sale or letting

    • #796991
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @sinnerboy wrote:

      When are the DEAP calcs needed and for whom? Sorry , rhetorical question . Hundreds of codes of practices and calcucations methods are referenced in TGD’s . It is not the routine practice for them to be required at planning . ( Soil tests and calcs for drainage excepted ) Or even at commencement notice time . What do you honestly expect the local building control to be able to with DEAP calcs print outs ? Even if they are looked for .

      Designers OUGHT to be using DEAP ( same as any other pertinent design codes ) . But with self certification / no meaningful ( I mean compared to UK for example ) building control regime I think in practice designers will find they wont HAVE to .

      I reckon the only time DEAP calcs will be required ( I mean in a quasi enforcement sense ) will be at BER time – sale or letting

      What I reckon is that nobody knows anything about this topic so perhaps we should stop speculating until the new regs appear

    • #796992
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @wearnicehats wrote:

      What I reckon is that nobody knows anything about this topic so perhaps we should stop speculating until the new regs appear

      DEAP calculations are currently required in order to show compliance with Part L. Thats the whole point, and its not a good reflection on an architectural website to state ‘nobody knows anything about this topic ‘ when architects involved in residential projects should be the leading profession in it.

      The revised regs are simply a tightening up of the current regs.

      Currently a dwelling needs to show,by calculation, that its CDER doesnt exceed its MPCDER. These abbreviations should not be alien to an architect who is involved in domestic projects.
      The new regs require the CDER to be 40% more efficient than the MPCDER.

      Has anyone here done a DEAP calculation as part of his/her certification of compliance on a domestic dwelling under current regs??

    • #796993
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @wearnicehats wrote:

      What I reckon is that nobody knows anything about this topic so perhaps we should stop speculating until the new regs appear

      speak for yourself . ignorance is bliss

    • #796994
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Think it’s going to be a big wake-up call for Architects as regards energy conservation.

      Many seem to view it as just another building regulation, that is to be approximately adhered to, but not too precisely as it won’t be checked as under ‘self – regulation’, there are very few enforcement staff. For instance, under (or rather not under) part M the provision of the smaller ‘WC cubicle for smaller dwellings’ when the area of the entrance storey is more than 45 square metres.

    • #796995
      Anonymous
      Inactive
    • #796996
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      So now there is a part L for dwellings (2007)
      and a part L for non – dwellings (2005) ….

    • #796997
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Could someone maybe help me out here, the recommended u-value to be used in passive houses for a concrete ground floor is 0.15, what thickness of insulation would that require, if my calculations are correct, it should be 100mm, with a thermal resistance of 4.75, is this correct?

    • #796998
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      depends on ratio of floor area to exposed perimeter

      check out TGD L

      http://www.environ.ie/en/TGD/

    • #796999
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Donegal Sir, a passive house is a lot more than just the sum of the u values of its construction. A passive design should be achieving a figure closer to 0.1 with NO thermal bridges.

      0.15 will be the required u value for floor with UFH from july onwards.

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