Revised Part L published

clarification I received from SEI . no answer from DOE yet as to when revised
TGD L 2008 will issue

“The HARP database is a resource for new and existing dwellings therefore it will continue to display all products regardless of seasonal efficiency.

The HARP website will be updated to include information on the new Part L requirement in the next week.

The DEAP methodology is currently being reviewed to include amendments made in the Building Regulations Part L 2007, and it will be published as soon as possible after TGD L 2008 is published.”

Are the revised regs requiring any proof that a DEAP calculation has been done to show compliance with part L???
ie a calculation print out etc???

glad to hear new regs will be introduced so swiftly, no point beating around the bush wit a topic like this.

On another point with regard guidelines etc. does anyone have a copy of know where to get a copy of the DoEHLG guidelines for sight lines in rural areas? ie for an 80 km road what is the required clear visibility left and right when exiting the site. I have tried my local county council, dept of DoE; transport etc even an Bord Pleanála.
Was onto Bord Pleanála yesterday as many of their refusals are based on the site not satisfying the ‘DoEHLG guidelines for visibility / sightlines’ yet they do not seem to have a copy!

any help would be greatly appreciated as i’m currently looking at a site and would prefer to have all my bases covered before investing further time and money in it.

regards,

macm

macm, one of the core documents used by roads design engineers is “Roads Geometry Handbook” by NRA, DoEHLG publications, Dec 2000. I dont think this is up on the net…. it cost roughly €150 a few years ago.

Many county development plans will have suggested sightlines for different grades of roads….
eg Laois County Council Roads Design have the following document: refer to page 6
http://www.laois.ie/media/Media,3263,en.pdf

cheers henno

macm

@henno wrote:

Are the revised regs requiring any proof that a DEAP calculation has been done to show compliance with part L???
ie a calculation print out etc???

no – from SI 854 2007

L2 For new dwellings, the requirement of L1 shall be met by:
(a) providing that the energy performance of the new dwelling
is such as to limit the calculated primary energy consumption
and related CO2 emissions insofar as is reasonably practicable,
when both energy consumption and CO2 emissions
are calculated using the Dwelling Energy Assessment Procedure
(DEAP) published by Sustainable Energy Ireland;

BUT if challenged , then you would have to produce DEAP calcs I reckon

From SI 666 2006

“(2) A person who offers for sale or letting (whether in writing or otherwise)—
(a) a building of a class referred to in subparagraph (a) or (b) of paragraph (4)
construction of which commences on or after such date specified for that class
in the said subparagraphs, hereinafter referred to as a ‘new building’, or
(b) on or after 1 January 2009, a building that is in existence on or before 1
January 2009,
and any agent acting on behalf of such person in connection with such offering, shall
produce a printed copy of the BER certificate and advisory report in relation to the
building to any person expressing an interest in purchasing or taking a letting of the
building and, on demand, to the building control authority in whose functional area the
building is situated.”

no mention of calcs

The DEAP calculations need to be done, probably, prior to commencement….. the BER is done after completion, which would be too late to calculate compliance with regs.
I think the simplest way for certifiers to enact this is to either (a) do a course in DEAP or (b) engage a BER assessor to do a prelim BER assessment after the construction method is selected.

The days of just looking into a cavity and checking off insulation is gone…. thank god!

Don’t t think we are differing here henno

BUT
The only time DEAP calcs HAVE to be done is at point of sale or letting . If sale or letting “off plans” – as follows – DEAP calcs are needed to provide provisional BER Cert . If house exists – DEAP calcs are needed to provide BER cert .

This all arises out of SI 666 2006 – not B Regs

I think some who don’t keep up to date will still issue certs (compliance wit b regs ) based on elemental u values and max 25% glazing ……. ( but maybe I’m wrong )

But i was under the impression that, under these new regs about to come in in July, that a dwelling cannot be certified to comply with Part L unless a DEAP calculation is done on it???
Thats what it states in the new SI……… maybe im picking it up completely wrong….

I agree totally with what you are posting, and i know ive had this argument on another forum, but the compliance with Part L, as calculated using DEAP, is completely separate to the BER certificate calculations, even though the same software is used.

Any certifier that certifies without using DEAP will be incorrect. How will they prove a 40% efficient in CO2 emissions without using DEAP?? Also that 25% glazing reg is flexible when other elemental u values are taken into account.

@macm wrote:

cheers henno

macm

This has the visibilities. It’s for the design speeds. Any development plan I’ve seen has their own standards which are pretty much universal anyway, based on speed limits

http://www.standardsforhighways.co.uk/dmrb/vol6/section2/td4295.pdf

Two sets of regs

Reg 1
SI 666 2006 is the Irish response to EPBD . It requires BER certs – prepared using DEAP
Effective dates are

At point of sale or letting ….

for new dwellings effective date 01 01 07 ( BUT transitional – PP on or by 31 12 06 – substantial completion 30 06 08 – exempt ) . I think this is the date you are thinking of ?

for new buildings not dwellings 01 07 08 ( ( BUT transitional – PP on or by 30 06 08 – substantial completion 30 06 10 – exempt )

for all existing buildings – 01 01 09 THIS is when assessors will become VERY busy ( IF SEI get there act together and agree methodology and issue software in time )

Reg 2

SI 854 2007 is the new Part L ( TGD still awaited )
effective date 01 07 08 ( transitional – PP on or by 30 06 08 – substantial completion 30 06 09 – exempt )
Revised DEAP will be required to calculate energy requirements / CO2 emmisions – ( to rates to be set out in TGD L 2008 when it issues )

I’m completely confused – I thought these new regs were only to do with boiler efficiency.

@wearnicehats wrote:

I’m completely confused – I thought these new regs were only to do with boiler efficiency.

NO – revised Part L ( Thermal Insulation Building Regulations) – for dwellings

Boilers is only tiny part of it – kicking in first

sight lines at entrances to primary and national roads on

Recommendations for Site Development Works for Housing Areas. Department of the Environment and Local Government
http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Housing/FileDownLoad,2451,en.pdf

Is it just me or is anyone else not surprised that apart from henno the only inputs have taken the thread off topic ?

Part L Regulations can be satisfied by showing that the calculated CO2 emissions per annum (kg CO2 /m2/per annum) for an actual dwelling, as designed and constructed, are less than the calculated annual emissions for a similar reference dwelling.

Any building sent for planning after 1 July 2006 need to demonstrate CDER complies with the max permitted figures. CDER + MCDER are calculated by DEAP.

@keating wrote:

Part L Regulations can be satisfied by showing that the calculated CO2 emissions per annum (kg CO2 /m2/per annum) for an actual dwelling, as designed and constructed, are less than the calculated annual emissions for a similar reference dwelling.

Any building sent for planning after 1 July 2006 need to demonstrate CDER complies with the max permitted figures. CDER + MCDER are calculated by DEAP.

Yes, and the new revised upcoming regulations must show at least 40% efficiency greater than the MPCDER.

I would be interested to know exactly what percentage of dwellings certified under current part L were calculated using the DEAP software. I would think it would be a tiny percentage.

@keating wrote:

Any building sent for planning after 1 July 2006 need to demonstrate CDER complies with the max permitted figures. CDER + MCDER are calculated by DEAP.

When are the DEAP calcs needed and for whom? Sorry , rhetorical question . Hundreds of codes of practices and calcucations methods are referenced in TGD’s . It is not the routine practice for them to be required at planning . ( Soil tests and calcs for drainage excepted ) Or even at commencement notice time . What do you honestly expect the local building control to be able to with DEAP calcs print outs ? Even if they are looked for .

Designers OUGHT to be using DEAP ( same as any other pertinent design codes ) . But with self certification / no meaningful ( I mean compared to UK for example ) building control regime I think in practice designers will find they wont HAVE to .

I reckon the only time DEAP calcs will be required ( I mean in a quasi enforcement sense ) will be at BER time – sale or letting

@sinnerboy wrote:

When are the DEAP calcs needed and for whom? Sorry , rhetorical question . Hundreds of codes of practices and calcucations methods are referenced in TGD’s . It is not the routine practice for them to be required at planning . ( Soil tests and calcs for drainage excepted ) Or even at commencement notice time . What do you honestly expect the local building control to be able to with DEAP calcs print outs ? Even if they are looked for .

Designers OUGHT to be using DEAP ( same as any other pertinent design codes ) . But with self certification / no meaningful ( I mean compared to UK for example ) building control regime I think in practice designers will find they wont HAVE to .

I reckon the only time DEAP calcs will be required ( I mean in a quasi enforcement sense ) will be at BER time – sale or letting

What I reckon is that nobody knows anything about this topic so perhaps we should stop speculating until the new regs appear

@wearnicehats wrote:

What I reckon is that nobody knows anything about this topic so perhaps we should stop speculating until the new regs appear

DEAP calculations are currently required in order to show compliance with Part L. Thats the whole point, and its not a good reflection on an architectural website to state ‘nobody knows anything about this topic ‘ when architects involved in residential projects should be the leading profession in it.

The revised regs are simply a tightening up of the current regs.

Currently a dwelling needs to show,by calculation, that its CDER doesnt exceed its MPCDER. These abbreviations should not be alien to an architect who is involved in domestic projects.
The new regs require the CDER to be 40% more efficient than the MPCDER.

Has anyone here done a DEAP calculation as part of his/her certification of compliance on a domestic dwelling under current regs??

@wearnicehats wrote:

What I reckon is that nobody knows anything about this topic so perhaps we should stop speculating until the new regs appear

speak for yourself . ignorance is bliss

Think it’s going to be a big wake-up call for Architects as regards energy conservation.

Many seem to view it as just another building regulation, that is to be approximately adhered to, but not too precisely as it won’t be checked as under ‘self – regulation’, there are very few enforcement staff. For instance, under (or rather not under) part M the provision of the smaller ‘WC cubicle for smaller dwellings’ when the area of the entrance storey is more than 45 square metres.

The TGD is now published

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,16557,en.pdf

So now there is a part L for dwellings (2007)
and a part L for non – dwellings (2005) ….

Could someone maybe help me out here, the recommended u-value to be used in passive houses for a concrete ground floor is 0.15, what thickness of insulation would that require, if my calculations are correct, it should be 100mm, with a thermal resistance of 4.75, is this correct?

depends on ratio of floor area to exposed perimeter

check out TGD L

http://www.environ.ie/en/TGD/

Donegal Sir, a passive house is a lot more than just the sum of the u values of its construction. A passive design should be achieving a figure closer to 0.1 with NO thermal bridges.

0.15 will be the required u value for floor with UFH from july onwards.