Restoring sash windows
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@Pot Noodle wrote:
Still trying
:o€800 you must be having a larfI have seen the work of some of my competition including Bolgers and ex-Bolgers staff.
They don’t bother to remove the old pulleys and put new ones in.
They use plastic parting beads (which are far cheaper than wooden ones) which can cause window frames to split.
They don’t bother to strip the paint from the sashes nor the frame.
These are the hardest parts of the job.
Most of them charge more than me
@Pot Noodle wrote:
i wont be commenting any more
LOL
I did some research and found that banker is a grave and personal insult.
Totally unnecessary:mad:
At least we know which banker gave you a debit card.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/essex/4741017.stm
Out of curiosity, S.O.S or Pot Noodle, what’s the industry norm cost to build a large segment-headed two-over-two sash window from scratch? Obviously I don’t want to start WWlll here, but a ballpark figure would be much appreciated.
(apologies, not looking for work at the minute)
And perhaps to steer things to a more constructive end, what sort of challenges are you facing in terms of energy conservation versus authentic design considerations? Particularly in relation to double glazing, but also Low-E glass etc. How have you found local authorities in their attitudes towards preserving the integrity of windows of Protected Structures you’ve worked on? Do they give a toss over detailing? How do you advise your clients that insist on an insulation gain with their reproduction sashes over first generation PVC they’re replacing?
It’d be most interesting to hear your thoughts on these matters given you’re at the coal face.
@GrahamH wrote:
Out of curiosity, S.O.S or Pot Noodle, what’s the industry norm cost to build a large segment-headed two-over-two sash window from scratch? Obviously I don’t want to start WWlll here, but a ballpark figure would be much appreciated.
(apologies, not looking for work at the minute)
And perhaps to steer things to a more constructive end, what sort of challenges are you facing in terms of energy conservation versus authentic design considerations? Particularly in relation to double glazing, but also Low-E glass etc. How have you found local authorities in their attitudes towards preserving the integrity of windows of Protected Structures you’ve worked on? Do they give a toss over detailing? How do you advise your clients that insist on an insulation gain with their reproduction sashes over first generation PVC they’re replacing?
It’d be most interesting to hear your thoughts on these matters given you’re at the coal face.
When you take out a large window surround, being at a coal face would be less dusty.:D
It is very hard to give exact prices because different people and jobs require different things.
If for example someone wanted to keep the glazing bars to the proper 19mm then it has to single glaze but if they want double glaze then the bars have to increase to around about 30mm or be 1 over 1 or to have those god awful white bars between the panes.
I’m in the process of building some double-glazed corded sash windows 1 over 1 with curved tops that cost €2250 each fully finished and installed.
On the other hand I have done square 2 over 2 single glazed windows for €1700.(3mm drawn glass).
Double glazing:-I use Pinkingtons low-e glass when asked to use double glazing.
I deal mainly with private customers and in any case always steer my clients matching original details, I just don’t see any reason why I shouldn’t.
Regarding the insulation of heat as we all know most of the heat lost from old houses is through the walls and ceilings.
Once the draught-proofing is in an old sash window it makes the whole house warmer.
BER ratings reflect this.
Speaking for myself I advise my customers when they have me in their house to get their front and back door draught proofed at the same time.
I think the local authorities generally speaking are dense and don’t understand the importance of the small details but I have met some architects who work for the council who really sparkle.
The enforcement section of DLRCoCo really stinks. I saw a fantastic old house on a hill some years ago had all its old windows (20) then recently I saw it again and all the windows had been torn out and replaced with god awful uPVC so I reported it and I was told I had to prove it. Madness
Thanks for that S.O.S – I’ll keep that quote in mind, unless Pot Noodle can beat it ;). Sounds about right!
When you say you use Pilkington glass if asked for double-glazing, do you mean you use single-glazed Pilkington as an alternative, or double-glazed Pilkington? What do you do when a client insists on double-glazing with a Georgian sash? Do you take a deep breath and go with 30mm bars or stick to your morals?
Also, what sort of thickness of d/g unit is best, and is it possible to putty in double-glazed units? It would appear that using clunky beading instead of putty is now the only barrier to an acceptable use of thin d/g units in sash windows (Victorian anyway, whatever of Georgian). The use of specially treated high performance single-glazing which acts the same as double-glazing (and as featured on Grand Designs last week) doesn’t seem to have caught on here. It’s been available for years! Have you ever made use of this? (apologies for the twenty questions)
It’s extraordinary the difference draught-proofing makes to sashes alright. Reducing the air changes in a room dramatically affects levels of heat retention. Indeed only recently I was in a modern house where the back door had a terrible draughty gap around the edges, and the room was about 50% colder than the rest of the house, in spite of having the same relative coverage of central heating.
@GrahamH wrote:
Thanks for that S.O.S – I’ll keep that quote in mind, unless Pot Noodle can beat it ;). Sounds about right!
The only way someone can beat my price or quality is to do crap work.
@GrahamH wrote:
When you say you use Pilkington glass if asked for double-glazing, do you mean you use single-glazed Pilkington as an alternative, or double-glazed Pilkington? What do you do when a client insists on double-glazing with a Georgian sash? Do you take a deep breath and go with 30mm bars or stick to your morals?.
If someone wants low-e glass they must use a double glazed unit. I aim for a 14mm unit to keep the sashes as thin as possible but if I have the room I go with a 18mm gas filled double glazed unit (can’t fit the nozzel into a 14mm unit).
If one of my customers insists on double glazing in a Georgian sash well its not possible unless you have a 30mm glazing bar even then there are no guarantees. I just say its not possible unless they go for 1/1 and stick those god awfulplastic bars onto them (which I won’t do)
@GrahamH wrote:
Also, what sort of thickness of d/g unit is best, and is it possible to putty in double-glazed units? It would appear that using clunky beading instead of putty is now the only barrier to an acceptable use of thin d/g units in sash windows (Victorian anyway, whatever of Georgian). The use of specially treated high performance single-glazing which acts the same as double-glazing (and as featured on Grand Designs last week) doesn’t seem to have caught on here. It’s been available for years! Have you ever made use of this? (apologies for the twenty questions).
First you can put linseed putty on a double glaxed unit if you protect the rubber compound from the linseed with silicone or similar (the name of the one I use which I won’t post).
I’m very interested in the name of that high preformance glass not k-glass is it.
@GrahamH wrote:
It’s extraordinary the difference draught-proofing makes to sashes alright. Reducing the air changes in a room dramatically affects levels of heat retention. Indeed only recently I was in a modern house where the back door had a terrible draughty gap around the edges, and the room was about 50% colder than the rest of the house, in spite of having the same relative coverage of central heating.
The best way I found to draught proof a door is to route a groove around the door and install the same draught proofing I use for my sash windows.
Makes the door more difficult to open and close but by god it is very effective.
S.O.S. (Save Our Sashes)
S.O.S.
What advice can you give on replacing/restoring a set of bay windows such as in the attached picture. While the timber looks sound I really need to consider the fact that it is only single glazing and I will be getting house dry-lined new heating etc. so a total replacement with new double glazed seems to be the compelling option. Other houses on the street have gone for PVC and Aluminium clad timber but they still don’t look as nice as the original timber. I am putting it all out to tender with Cork based companies so if you have any pointers on keeping the cost down i would really appreciate it.
@brainscan wrote:
S.O.S.
What advice can you give on replacing/restoring a set of bay windows such as in the attached picture. While the timber looks sound I really need to consider the fact that it is only single glazing and I will be getting house dry-lined new heating etc. so a total replacement with new double glazed seems to be the compelling option. Other houses on the street have gone for PVC and Aluminium clad timber but they still don’t look as nice as the original timber. I am putting it all out to tender with Cork based companies so if you have any pointers on keeping the cost down i would really appreciate it.
If you replace those windows you will become my enemy for life;)
One of the big problems with sashes made for double glazed units is the the companies that make them can’t keep the size of the sash down (2.25″-2.5″), so you end up with the frame being too big.
I can’t post which company I use for my materials but if you PM me your phone number I can go through the process with you.
S.O.S.
A grand array of handsome sashes there brainscan. Good to see retention is on the cards!
Thanks for all the replies S.O.S – most informative. On one last point, and based upon the above case, is it possible in most cases to double-glaze a typical single-pane sash window, or is it very much joint solidity and member size dependant? Say in a typical 1900 house where the original glass has long vanished?
It’s issues such as these, which involve the retention of original fabric while offering a energy-saving solution, that aren’t getting enough public airing.
@GrahamH wrote:
A grand array of handsome sashes there brainscan. Good to see retention is on the cards!.
If he isn’t keeping them he’ll be in trouble with me:D
@GrahamH wrote:
On one last point, and based upon the above case, is it possible in most cases to double-glaze a typical single-pane sash window, or is it very much joint solidity and member size dependant? Say in a typical 1900 house where the original glass has long vanished? .
I’ve put double glazing into some old sashes (only 1 customer ever insisted on it) but they must be 1/1 and the joints must be strenghtened other wise they could and very probably will fail after a time.
I always strongle advise people not to get D/G done to old sashes but given the choice between someone binning the old sashes or me putting D/G into them, it’s an easy choice for me.
@GrahamH wrote:
It’s issues such as these, which involve the retention of original fabric while offering a energy-saving solution, that aren’t getting enough public airing.
The economics of putting double glazing into old sashes is shaky, it is my belief proper draught proofing can make a set of draughty old windows much more comfortable for the inhabitances of a house.
S.O.S.
Thanks S.O.S.
Fully agreed about the limited benefits of double-glazing relative to the poor isulation value of old walls, floors and non-draught-proofed windows. But the way I see it, if we want to get real about energy conservation while also restoring historic detail to houses where original windows have long since disappeared, it is essential that double glazing forms part of that process. There is no way the average joe public is going to sacrifice double-glazed PVC or aluminium frames for a single-glazed sash, however well draught-proofed or aesthetically pleasing. This results in a net energy loss to the property (whatever of the manufacturing process which is likely to be a different story).
As such, the sooner we formulate and make viable a well-detailed, historically appropriate double-glazed sash or equivalant – preferably involving a single-glazed pane of double-glazed value – the better. It’s probably fair to say that on a national basis 50 per cent of historic buildings have lost their original windows. To have even a fraction of these reinstated on an energy-conscious basis would be extremely worthwhile, even if limited to Victorian single-pane examples.
Lofty conservation professionals appear to forget the ranks of typical two-up two-down houses that proliferate in every urban area, never mind smaller or slightly larger houses (and all of which suffer the greatest loss of window fabric of our wider building stock). These require and deserve sensitive reinstatement as much as larger flagship properties where authentic detailing is obviously equally desirable. The sooner we get away from the horrendously detailed and manufactured rubbish being thrown at these buildings in the name of energy conservation, towards a more aesthetically pleasing and probably more efficient model, the better it will be for both property owners and our built heritage.
(and to clarify I obviously do not advocate the replacement of original fabric where it survives)
@GrahamH wrote:
The use of specially treated high performance single-glazing which acts the same as double-glazing (and as featured on Grand Designs last week) doesn’t seem to have caught on here. It’s been available for years!
Can you get me the name of this glass
Not sure if anybody is interested but I’ve heard from 2 different sources that Bolgers have gone out of business.
@S.O.S. wrote:
Can you get me the name of this glass
Sorry S.O.S., forgot about this. Here is the website of the company featured on Grand Designs.
http://www.slimliteglass.co.uk/home.html
(try to muddle through the desperately written text)
Looking at their product, it’s clear Kevin McCloud was incorrect in describing the glass as being single-glazed – it is in fact double-glazed. Nonetheless, it is still remarkably thin, at only 12mm for the slimmest of units. The perimeter seal is also only 5mm wide, meaning it is invisible when used with a standard 6-7mm rebate in a glazing bar. The type of spacing used also eliminates cold bridging at the edges, common with typical double-glazing. They claim their units can be used for most single-glazed applications.
@GrahamH wrote:
Sorry S.O.S., forgot about this. Here is the website of the company featured on Grand Designs.
http://www.slimliteglass.co.uk/home.html
(try to muddle through the desperately written text)
Looking at their product, it’s clear Kevin McCloud was incorrect in describing the glass as being single-glazed – it is in fact double-glazed. Nonetheless, it is still remarkably thin, at only 12mm for the slimmest of units. The perimeter seal is also only 5mm wide, meaning it is invisible when used with a standard 6-7mm rebate in a glazing bar. The type of spacing used also eliminates cold bridging at the edges, common with typical double-glazing. They claim their units can be used for most single-glazed applications.
Problem with those units is they are too heavy for delicate sashes
While not loosing sleep as such I have to say I’m in a dilly of a pickle over the windows in my c.1900 2 up 2 down. The three 2/2 sash windows to the front have long since been replaced by PVC dross which has since warped and requires replacement. For sport I went into a uPVC joint in Fairview who gave me a rough quote of €5k spend. BTW, the road is now a mix of uPVC and new 1/1 wooden sash. Not an original 2/2 remains.
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