Restoring sash windows

@S.O.S. wrote:

LOL

I have done several restoration projects over the years and I have never heard of any man doing 4/6 windows in 1 day,

Pot Noodle, you still haven’t compared prices nor have answered to whether or not Bolgers/Ventrolla do restoration and repair of old sash windows or not.

Since Pot Noodle isn’t keen to answer my question maybe I should make a new thread entitled

Do Bolgers/Ventrolla restore sashes anymore? If so, what does it cost?

You may drag it out to justifie €800 a window we just get stuck in the days of ripping people off is long gone value for money now

@cheezypuf wrote:

I’m in the middle of having all the windows at the front of my Victorian house done, including a large bay window.

I shopped around quite a bit and was very unimpressed with W J Bolder aka Ventrolla. The reason my windows need attention is that Bolger’s did them around ten years ago and removed part of the original frames and replaced them with plastic which has caused the wooden surrounds to split and rot. They also infilled part of the windows with silicone which sealed in water and caused further decay of the timber. They removed some of the original wrought iron and solid brass catches and replaced them with brassed catches and fittings which have since corroded.

Having spoken to Bolders I found them very unhelpful and uninterested in conservation. I explained that I wanted to retain as much of the original materials as possible, and they said they’d f@ck them out and replace them with new ones. They also failed to return calls, failed to turn up at the appointed time and were reluctant to return a sample sash I had given them for assessment.

In the end I settled for someone who is charging me more than twice the €800 per window price quoted, but I am very pleased with the quality of the work, and am satisfied that I won’t need to redo it in a few years like I’ve had to do with Bolger’s.

Part of the reason my price is higher than the €800 is that they are fusing cracked glass back together and hand blowing new cylinder glass to replace modern panes.

They may not be the fastest workers, but I really don’t see how anyone could claim to restore six sash windows in a day and do anything like a proper job.

The plastic is an isopon based product i would slice with salvaged timber myself 4/6 windows again i say depending on condition some windows have very little wrong with them i.e weights ,sash cords missing beads & over painting i work for myself so there is no incentive to skive off like i said we just get stuck in

@cheezypuf wrote:

I’m talking about proper restoration though, not patching them up with plastic bits.

As a minimum a restored window will need a printer, undercoat and gloss. How do you manage to get all three coats on and dry in one day, and on six windows? Not to mention replacing damaged timber, replacing cords, rehanging weights, removing old puty, waiting a month for the puty to dry before painting, etc?

How can restore a rotten piece of wood if it is unrepairable you tell me Harry Houdini you may think people are slackers we are not Its called best common practice and i wont be commenting any more

cheezypuf, can I ask why you are going about commissioning new cylinder glass for your windows? Surely the entire charm of original glass is that it is original – its flaws and imperfections the result of contemporary manufacturing limitations. Why would you want to falsely recreate that? Similarly, if I wanted to ‘read’ your building and be charmed by the integrity of its flashing panes of 19th century glass amongst the modern inserts, I would be sorely disappointed.

I’ve never quite understood why people would go to such effort to deceive in the installation of fake old glass. It’s akin to eschewing modern transportation and bringing all the building materials to your house on a horse and cart.

It probably does yes. Don’t get me wrong, I think you’re doing a fantastic job with your windows, and I’ve been reading your posts with satisfaction at your following best conservation practice, including refraining from painting the putty until a later date. Similarly, I despise plastic parting beads with a passion and am shocked at the number of quite high profile buildings where these have been installed. Your past experience says it all really. Indeed a picture or two of what you’re now doing wouldn’t go amiss 😉

However I really do take issue with replicating historic glass. Doing this is quite different to replicating authentic colour schemes or historic building materials – these are design considerations, architectural elements which are integral to the character of a building, as important to its appearance in the present day as in times past. By contrast, crown and cylinder glass in original windows direcly relates to contemporaneous manufacturing techniques. Their presence in a building is important principally because of their survival, not as an aesthetic entity (though yes it can of course be pretty). Indeed I would argue that far from contributing to an historic building, the replication of old glass vastly diminishes the status of original glass in a window, as its integrity as surviving testament to former manufacturing techniques and indeed social hierarchy, is lost amid the array of deceiving reproductions. Essentially, for me, it’s akin to replication exhibits in a museum case. They lack all the impact of the real thing, while an over abundance of such exhibits – as I’m sure everyone has encountered at one point or another – just makes the entire experience meaningless when you have to check every second caption card for authenticity.

@Pot Noodle wrote:

i wont be commenting any more

@Pot Noodle wrote:

I never said that i painted them

@cheezypuf wrote:

A couple of the windows had glass replaced over the years. The old putty wasn’t cleared out properly and was left partially intact, and a new smaller pane was inserted, with more putty on top of the old. This was a pretty sloppy way to repair a window and has resulted in the glass being too small for the original frame when the layers of putty have been removed. As a result new glass will be needed anyway, so I thought glass that resembled the other (original) panes would be nice. Glass that isn’t damaged or too small isn’t being replaced.

I’m sorry that you find this sorely disappointing, but I’m doing my best to use the same materials and methods that were used when the windows were originally constructed. To this end, any replacement timber used is the same type as that removed, i.e. pitch pine. This has added to the expense, but I don’t think adding in pressure-treated deal, silicone filler or plastic beading would be very sensitive.

I’m not sure I agree with your analogy of a horse and cart. I think I’d prefer to use the example of someone with a period house choosing shades and types of paint that were available at the time the house was built, rather than modern hues and finishes.

I’m not sure if there is a right answer – perhaps it comes down to taste (or lack thereof)?

I think I have some of the old type glass in my possession if you are interested.
Let me know and I’ll check my store for it.

@Pot Noodle wrote:

FOC or €800

Thought as much

I’ve done a lot of research on the topic as I’ve mentioned here before, and I couldn’t say a bad work about Bolgers, they’ve given me nothing but help and advice and I think they’re fantastic. I have been in their workshops and I’ve seen first hand projects where they do salvage as much as possible on projects. Perhaps it was under different managment 10 years ago and hence your dissatisfaction, but certainly I’ve nothing but positive to say about them.

These guys are brilliant, have used them for several Georgian and Victorian projects.

http://www.kellswindows.com/

@snooky wrote:

Hi,

Does anyone know or can recommend sash window restoration/replacement company that will cover North County Dublin? We have three sash windows on our stone cottage (c. 1905), which need either restoring or replacing.

I am unsure how bad they have to be before they must be replaced?

Windows are 6 over 6, have no weights/pulley visible (must have been ripped out), and we can’t open them.. due to years of over painting I should think. One pane is cracked but the rest look ok. There’s some small amount of wood rotting at the bottom of one of the windows as far as I can see.. though difficult to tell how bad the windows are underneath all the paint. They still keep out the wind and rain though!.

Appreciate any advice. Thanks

hi snooky
did you get your window issue sorted, let me know if you still need help