reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches
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Regarding the possibly unsurprising on-going efforts to radically reorder Cobh, I thought I’d point out an example in a spirit of helpfulness.
(As has probably been clear from my previous posts, I regard the practice of the priest deliberately ‘facing the people’ as a very regretable innovation in the liturgy of the church. I believe that it will gradually fade away as the authentic organic understanding of the western liturgical rites becomes more widespread; alongside this process there will be a reclamation of the Council texts via a dissemination of the ‘hermeneutic of continuity’. The observations that men like Bouyer and Ratzinger made in the late 1960s will come to be more widely known and shared.)
I’ve heard it said in this thread that the model for the last Cobh project was the duomo in Milan. This was a disgraceful ‘adeguamento’ that thoroughly subverted the sixteenth century sanctuary. It is also irreversible. Given the conservation angle at Cobh, it would seem that any solution that is ‘irreversible’ is profoundly unsuitable. Whilst I question the aesthetic content of this reordering of Turin Cathedral, if the bishop is adamant that something has to be done at Cobh prior to his having to write the letter why not take a look at the approach adopted here?
The new furniture gives the necessary impression of permanence, but clearly only rests on the pavement.
“The new furniture gives the necessary impression of permanence, but clearly only rests on the pavement”
Good point about no permanency…at best a face saving exercise for some… but would fear it a horrdenous waste of money just to appease a few egoes…..
what do you think of the altar above…. I know I have the flu and a high temperature but it gives me the hebbie jebbies…looking at it….. like a bad temperature induced nightmare…. sorry if I offend.. but thats what I see…
Oh, Samuel, I think that it’s pretty ghastly! No offence taken.
The only reason I post it is because I imagine that there are similar laws in Italy regarding permitted developement in historical churches, probably more stringent than Ireland I imagine. I think that the chancery in Cobh isn’t really interested in compromise: The unstated motivating factor is not merely that there ought to be a permanent forward-facing altar but that it should never be possible to go back to the old arrangement should the wind change in Rome ten, twenty years hence… It is intended to be an aggresive act towards the historic fabric. Regardless of the weird, inappropriate and frankly tasteless additions in Turin it would only take four burley men five minutes to re-reorder the church back to how it was…
😮 What a Country we have become since been “awash with money”, “the richest Country in Europe”, ‘the third richest Country in the WORLD”, “needing workers from all over the world to come here to serve in our hotels and restaurants, work as builders laborers” etc…:mad: (pity the fat bitch that proposed this nonsense did not allow lawyers, accountants, doctors, dentists, politicians come here to stop the Irish MAFIA (Dail Eireann) selling us down the river?
Now they want to destroy our heritage such as St. Colmans??
Call me a racist if that’s what is needed, but the sooner we wake up and say “This is OUR culture, OUR Country, if you don’t like it, or you want to sell us down the Swanney then F.OFF back to Muslim Land the better!!:mad:@Luzarches wrote:
Oh, Samuel, I think that it’s pretty ghastly! No offence taken.
The only reason I post it is because I imagine that there are similar laws in Italy regarding permitted developement in historical churches, probably more stringent than Ireland I imagine. I think that the chancery in Cobh isn’t really interested in compromise: The unstated motivating factor is not merely that there ought to be a permanent forward-facing altar but that it should never be possible to go back to the old arrangement should the wind change in Rome ten, twenty years hence… It is intended to be an aggresive act towards the historic fabric. Regardless of the weird, inappropriate and frankly tasteless additions in Turin it would only take four burley men five minutes to re-reorder the church back to how it was…
Thats good….
Would think you are right about Compromise is not on cards for Cobh…..
Glad at least Turin example (besides the inspiration for tonights flu induced nightmare) can be put back to the way it SHOULD be easily…..Alasd…Cobh egoes on a more permanent statement of their tenure……
Bishop held another meeting last Friday with the canons of the cathedral. It went on for a long time but they were not discussing the cathedral. When bishop did get to talk about it he had some interesting things to say about his recent (short) meeting with BXVI, by what the birdies in Cobh are singing. He gave away one vital piece of information: he did not bring up the subject of the cathedral with BXVI — BXVI BROUGHT IT UP WITH HIM and said that he knew Cobh and the view over the harbour from the cathedral, he knew the beautiful cathedral, he had been having LOTS and LOTS of letters of complaint from the troops on the ground in Cobh. Bish. also told the canons that BXVI had asked him about the high altar, the tabernacle, the reredos, and more importantly, the ALTAR RAILS, and the schoold boy had to answer his questions as best he could from an unprepared text and without the help of Brian McCutcheon and Denny Reidy. Sounds like he was up the creek without the proverbial…. It does not take much to figure out that a bishop would not want to be attracting notice or attention for himself when the one noticing and attending is BXVI. The message in all of that to anyone with eyes and ears in their head is to leave well enough alone.
The message in all of that to anyone with eyes and ears in their head is to leave well enough alone.
Exactly but does not look he took it that way or yes men on his return did either, muppets are already giving
stories to Evening Echo that spproval aok….@descamps wrote:
Bishop held another meeting last Friday with the canons of the cathedral. It went on for a long time but they were not discussing the cathedral. When bishop did get to talk about it he had some interesting things to say about his recent (short) meeting with BXVI, by what the birdies in Cobh are singing. He gave away one vital piece of information: he did not bring up the subject of the cathedral with BXVI — BXVI BROUGHT IT UP WITH HIM and said that he knew Cobh and the view over the harbour from the cathedral, he knew the beautiful cathedral, he had been having LOTS and LOTS of letters of complaint from the troops on the ground in Cobh. Bish. also told the canons that BXVI had asked him about the high altar, the tabernacle, the reredos, and more importantly, the ALTAR RAILS, and the schoold boy had to answer his questions as best he could from an unprepared text and without the help of Brian McCutcheon and Denny Reidy. Sounds like he was up the creek without the proverbial…. It does not take much to figure out that a bishop would not want to be attracting notice or attention for himself when the one noticing and attending is BXVI. The message in all of that to anyone with eyes and ears in their head is to leave well enough alone.
By the sound of that the “approval” is even more tenuous than the “approval” given by Cardinal Arinze. In fact, I am inclined to think that some one must have misheard the word “approval”. Can the Pope be expected to hand out lollypops to people who generate such large quanrtities of protest mail – that merely shows that we are not up to the job.
@Praxiteles wrote:
By the sound of that the “approval” is even more tenuous than the “approval” given by Cardinal Arinze. In fact, I am inclined to think that some one must have misheard the word “approval”. Can the Pope be expected to hand out lollypops to people who generate such large quanrtities of protest mail – that merely shows that we are not up to the job.
Plenty of prelates are still licking and relishing their lollypops all over the world, Prax]Ascende superius![/I] And the beat goes on….
Check your Annuario Pontificio carefully. When the civil authorities intervene, usually to call a halt to criminal activity, then corrective action ensues (grudgingly for the most part). Otherwise, “It’s business as usual.” Recipe: Push the envelope always, and when confronted with Church documents, canon law, even pointed remarks from the Supreme Pontiff himself, claim exemption (in true Gallican fashion) from “Roman documents” (ie magisterial teaching), and wait for the lollypop. It always comes to the defiant. Name your flavour, baby!!
I’d love to see the minutes from this year’s ad limina visits! Must I live another 75 years before reading them in the archives? Or ar they tossed into the shredder after five years?
@Praxiteles wrote:
It looks as though Irish vandalism and ignorance are now being exported. While looking for a photograph of the Chapel of the Irish College in Louvain to illustrate the arrangement of a sanctuary with three altars – a feature of churches built by Br. M.A. O’Riordan – I was aghast to find that the 17th. century interior of the chapel of St. Anthony’s College in Louvain has only recently been compkletely demolished by the governments of Northern Ireland and of the Irish Republic to provide a 200 seater auditorium for an Irish “cultural” centre in Louvain. Can you credit that?
So St Anthony’s is now a Theatre, rather than a chapel. Would you call it Theatre of the Absurd or Theatre of Cruelty?
It actually reminds me of an insane asylum. Perhaps a fitting denouement after all. All you need to start an asylum is a big room and the right kind of people ….
@kite wrote:
Pope backs Bishop’s Cathedral plans
Form the Evening Echo 25-11-06
By: Ronan BagnallTHE BISHOP Of Cloyne Dr John Magee will put forward new proposals to change St. Colman’s Cathedral in Cobh in the coming weeks.
Bishop Magee said his new plans for the cathedral were endorsed by Pope Benedict XVI on a recent trip to Rome.
He called a meeting of all priests in the Diocese earlier this week to inform them of his latest proposal.
Bishop Magee’s previous attempt to re-order the church caused a “storm of controversy in Cobh earlier this year and a group of local objectors campaigned against the plan.
The trustees of St Colman’s Cathedral, which includes Bishop Magee, had planned to relocate the altar rails and extend the sanctuary to the nave, which would have involved disturbing the mosaic floor.
However, An Bord Pleanala rejected the planning application because St Colman’s was “a most important example of 19-century Gothic architecture.â€
In July, Bishop Magee decided against pursuing the matter to the High Court, but insisted the present state of the church did not meet the proper liturgical requirements.
His latest plan to change the cathedral is likely to be met with similar opposition from the. Friends of St Cohman’s Cathedral (FOSCC), the group who strongly fought against his initial proposal.
FOSCC spokesman, Adrian O’Donovan said: “We will strongly object to any plan that will lead to the destruction of our Catherdal.
Any planning application to Cobh Town Council will be thoroughly considered before we decide to take action.â€
The FOSCC are demanding written evidence that Pope Benedict has endorsed the new plan.Keep in mind, gentle readers, that each new batch of plans costs a pretty penny. Architects and engineers are cashing in on St Colman’s cow. They aren’t operating on the model of the St Vincent de Paul Society.
One can scarcely help concluding that the diocese of Cloyne must be pretty flush these days, with all the cash doled out on plans, plans, plans, and more plans. Julius II, despite his waste of resources on wars, paid for only one set of plans for his tomb.
Unusual, too, that this amount of money is being thrown away on something like liturgy, generally the last grape on the ecclesiastical bunch despite its designation as “the summit and source” of the Church’s life and mission. Too bad the money is not being used to improve the level of liturgical education of clergy and laity there. Then there would be fewer resources wasted on unnecessary battles and conflict.
To paraphrase an American aphorism: look after the nickels and dimes, and the dullards will take care of themselves!
@Rhabanus wrote:
Plenty of prelates are still licking and relishing their lollypops all over the world, Prax]Ascende superius![/I] And the beat goes on….
Check your Annuario Pontificio carefully. When the civil authorities intervene, usually to call a halt to criminal activity, then corrective action ensues (grudgingly for the most part). Otherwise, “It’s business as usual.” Recipe: Push the envelope always, and when confronted with Church documents, canon law, even pointed remarks from the Supreme Pontiff himself, claim exemption (in true Gallican fashion) from “Roman documents” (ie magisterial teaching), and wait for the lollypop. It always comes to the defiant. Name your flavour, baby!!
I’d love to see the minutes from this year’s ad limina visits! Must I live another 75 years before reading them in the archives? Or ar they tossed into the shredder after five years?
Yes, by the looks of things and the Franciscans who compiled the Annals of the Four Masters lie buried in the cloister in graves whose markers were desecrated by Napoleone! Such is Irish “culture”!!
@Praxiteles wrote:
Yes, by the looks of things and the Franciscans who compiled the Annals of the Four Masters lie buried in the cloister in graves whose markers were desecrated by Napoleone! Such is Irish “culture”!!
Sic transit gloria mundi!
@samuel j wrote:
I going to have to get one of these to keep up….heeeheeee
Buy Wheelock (6th ed. by Richard Lafleur) instead, Sam. There is something spiritually purifying about grammar, and his corny jokes are also an exercise in ascetism.
@Rhabanus wrote:
Buy Wheelock (6th ed. by Richard Lafleur) instead, Sam. There is something spiritually purifying about grammar, and his corny jokes are also an exercise in ascetism.
The amazon xmas wishlist….. must drop hints to the kids….. would beat the usual presents of socks
@samuel j wrote:
The amazon xmas wishlist….. must drop hints to the kids….. would beat the usual presents of socks
Excellent idea! Wheelock wrote his Latin Grammar for American GIs returning to studies after action in WW2, hence a Latin grammar designed for adult learners rather than for high-school-age boys. Wheelock’s daughters assisted him in the compilation of his text.
Richard LaFleur of the University of Georgia took the fourth edition in hand to produce the fifth, and then the sixth edition. He added a number of silly jokes supposedly to lighten the tone of the text and to raise the spirits of his students.
It’s not a bad start. It takes a distinctly grammatical approach to the language. It is VASTLY superior to O’Collins’ A Primer of Ecclesiastical Latin, a product of defective pedagogy.
Real lovers of Latin grammar will be sure to secure their own copy of “Bradley’s Arnold” or Latin Composition by the famous Dr Arnold and revised by Bradley, one of his former students.
@Rhabanus wrote:
Excellent idea! Wheelock wrote his Latin Grammar for American GIs returning to studies after action in WW2, hence a Latin grammar designed for adult learners rather than for high-school-age boys. Wheelock’s daughters assisted him in the compilation of his text.
Richard LaFleur of the University of Georgia took the fourth edition in hand to produce the fifth, and then the sixth edition. He added a number of silly jokes supposedly to lighten the tone of the text and to raise the spirits of his students.
It’s not a bad start. It takes a distinctly grammatical approach to the language. It is VASTLY superior to O’Collins’ A Primer of Ecclesiastical Latin, a product of defective pedagogy.
Real lovers of Latin grammar will be sure to secure their own copy of “Bradley’s Arnold” or Latin Composition by the famous Dr Arnold and revised by Bradley, one of his former students.
And what about poor Gildersleeve’s Latin Grammar to say nothing of Longman’s – over which we all toiled!
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