reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches

Here are two views of the Mariensaule in Munich, erected in 1648 to mark the end of the thrity years war.

@Rhabanus wrote:

Not aware of any more in North America, but do recall one atop a column in Lucca. The Luchese statue of the Immaculata, however, is modelled not on the Immaculata of the Piazza di Spagna, Rome, but the much more more common portrayal of the Immaculata with both hands crossed over Our Lady’s breast – along the lines of Our Lady of Humility (S. Maria dell’ umilta). The Luchese Immaculata, as I recall it from a visit there a decade ago, resembles this latter kind of Madonna. It was this kind of model beside which Pius IX is sometimes portrayed or photographed. A splendid example is found in the church of the XII Apostoli (Dodici Apostoli) where each year, from 30 Nov to 8 Dec, the Conventual Friars who administer the church conduct a famous Novena to the Immaculate Conception and the image dominates the sanctuary of the church.

A comparison of the two types of Immaculata will indicate that the Piazza di Spagna type shows Our Lady with her head facing heavenward, her right hand held aloft, while her left hand points earthward. The standard Immaculata faces downward in humility and crosses both hands over her breast. An example of this can be found in the Church of the Immaculate Conception, Rome, administered by the Capuchin Fathers (also known vulgarly in Rome as “the bone church”).

Yet another model of the Immaculate Conception is also known as Our Lady of Grace. An example of this kind of Immaculata is found on the Miraculous Medal (1830). A painting of this Immaculata is venerated in the Church of Sant’ Andrea delle frati, Rome. It was before this painting of the Immaculata before which the scoffer and skeptic Alphonse Ratisbonne was converted to Catholicism. It is a common feature of Catholic households and churches, far more so than the Pian Immaculata and that in the Piazza di Spagna.

Here is a copy of the Immaculata usually associated with Pius IX. It is from the Czech Republic:

http://genesis.ceska-trebova.cz/obrazek/immaculata2.jpg

And here a picture of the prototype for these marian columns: the marian column of Paul V erected in front of Santa Maria Maggiore in 1613. The statue sits atop the sole surviving column of the Basilica of Maxentius. The architect was Carlo Maderno. The bronze statue is by Guglielmo B

@Praxiteles wrote:

And here a picture of the prototype for these marian columns: the marian column of Paul V erected in front of Santa Maria Maggiore in 1613. The statue sits atop the sole surviving column of the Basilica of Maxentius. The architect was Carlo Maderno. The bronze statue is by Guglielmo Bérthelot.

So, the statue of Our Lady on the column overlooking the piazza and basilica of S. Maria Maggiore has been standing there since the year before the publication by Paul V of the Rituale Romanum (1614) – the last of the liturgical books issued in accordance with the mandate of the Council of Trent (1545-63).

She has seen it all since then!

By the way, on a much more mundane note, the pasticceria/bar directly behind the column, and visible in the photograph, used to prepare the best doughnuts and pastries in all of the Eternal City. On my last visit, I discovered that they had removed the lowered ceiling to reveal the medieval beams of the original palazzo and some stucco work. Very nice indeed. The menu was rather more ambitious than I had hitherto recalled. Perhaps a legacy of the late great Canon of M&M’s, Dilwyn Lewis?

The Magna Mater Bavariae (the Mother and Protectress of Bavaria) as drawn by Raphael Saedler c. 1620 with the Archangel Michael hold a map of Bavaria, the towers of the Frauenkirche in Munich clearly seen in the drawing of the city of Munich in the lower left hand corner. The ingraving is titled: “RELIGIO PRINCIPUMTUTELA REGNORUM”

@Gianlorenzo wrote:

Great photos, Paul, Thanks.
G.

Yes, Paul, many thanks for the splendid photos. The churches photographed are exquisitely beautiful! How they could have been defiled and gutted – in Ireland of all places! – remains part of the mystery of evil. It just goes to show that ‘Satan never sleeps.’

By the way, I am enjoying immensely your book on Dublin street names. Excellent work!

Hi Archangel,
I know St Gabriels, its a fine church – I heard a rumour that a fair proportion of the pews were sold off a few years ago – to create a “gathering space”? Can you confirm this?

Thanks,
Fearg.

@archangel wrote:

This is an excellent thread, inspiring, informative and has given ordinary parishioners the courage to question what is happening to some of our beautiful churches in Ireland today. Our Parish church St.Gabriels Dollymount is due for ‘reordering’ of the sanctuary in early January. This entails,inter alia, removing exquisite marble and brass altar rails. St. Gabriels was opened in 1956and at the time considered one of the finest churches in the diocese.The architect we believe was Louis Peppard and any information on his work would be welcome. St. Gabriels is not a listed building so any dissension to the plans does not carry the weight of the Cobh cathedral case. The reordering is going ahead, with diocesan approval, despite the wishes of a substantial number of parishioners. A survey of a representative sample in the parish found that 72% of parishioners did not agree with the removal of the present altar rails. Will St. Gabriels be just another casualty in the reorganisation and destruction of Irish Catholic churches?

Hi Archangel and welcome to the thread.

Just because St. Gabriel’s is not a listed building does not mean that you have no options to prevent an unwanted and and unwelcome redevelopment of its interior. Not being listed mearly means that you have not the same range of options available to you as the Friends of St. Colman’s had.

1. An ecclesiastical recourse should be taken by the parishioners or a group of parishioners against the parish priest and Archbishop Martin at the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline fo the Sacraments in Rome. The procedure is straight forward enough but would be more securely followed had you the guidance and expertise of a canonist available to you. Simply write to the parish priest and Archbishop Martin asking them to rescind or amend the decrees that were issued (if issued at all) authorising the development of the interior of the church. If they agree to do so well and good. If not, and you do not hear from them within 28 days (and register your letters with a form of registration requiring signature for delivery) then you can place your case directly before the Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments as a recourse and ask him to decide the merits of the case. Of course, while this is going on no work can or should take place.

2. Just as a precautionary measure, while your recopurse is going on you could approach the High Court seeking an order to prohibit development of the interior of the church until a decision is given in the ecclesiastical forum i.e. by the Congregation for Divine Worship adn the Discipline of the Sacraments.

3. It would also be useful to engage the services of a good company of solicitors. The Friends of St. Colman’s Cathedral were very well served by Arthur Cox and Co., Earlsford Terrace, Dublin 2.

Is it true that the great open minded Dirmuid Martin shafted the local curate when he came out in support of the parishioners opposed to the development of the church interior?

@descamps wrote:

Hi Archangel and welcome to the thread.

Just because St. Gabriel’s is not a listed building does not mean that you have no options to prevent an unwanted and and unwelcome redevelopment of its interior. Not being listed mearly means that you have not the same range of options available to you as the Friends of St. Colman’s had.

1. An ecclesiastical recourse should be taken by the parishioners or a group of parishioners against the parish priest and Archbishop Martin at the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline fo the Sacraments in Rome. The procedure is straight forward enough but would be more securely followed had you the guidance and expertise of a canonist available to you. Simply write to the parish priest and Archbishop Martin asking them to rescind or amend the decrees that were issued (if issued at all) authorising the development of the interior of the church. If they agree to do so well and good. If not, and you do not hear from them within 28 days (and register your letters with a form of registration requiring signature for delivery) then you can place your case directly before the Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments as a recourse and ask him to decide the merits of the case. Of course, while this is going on no work can or should take place.

2. Just as a precautionary measure, while your recopurse is going on you could approach the High Court seeking an order to prohibit development of the interior of the church until a decision is given in the ecclesiastical forum i.e. by the Congregation for Divine Worship adn the Discipline of the Sacraments.

3. It would also be useful to engage the services of a good company of solicitors. The Friends of St. Colman’s Cathedral were very well served by Arthur Cox and Co., Earlsford Terrace, Dublin 2.

Is it true that the great open minded Dirmuid Martin shafted the local curate when he came out in support of the parishioners opposed to the development of the church interior?

Is it true that the great open minded Dirmuid Martin shafted the local curate when he came out in support of the parishioners opposed to the development of the church interior?

Rhabanus smells corruption – and bullyism – and they stink the high heavens!

Cheers to descamps for advising the good Archangel to initiate the due process. No time to waste, Archangel! Use that angelic gift of agility to start the ball rolling.

I shouldn’t be surprised, though, if the wrecking ball slipped into gear before the process got off the ground. When dealing with Iconoclasts, one can never be up too early in the morning – literally! They like to get in before cock-crow so that when the faithful arrive for early Mass, the dirty deed is done and then suddenly no funds are available to repair the damage. But just watch the improvements added to the rectory or parish house. The Ven. J.H. Newman pointed out in the 19th century that funds were scarce for improvements to the church but readily available for improvements to the rectory. What a coincidence!!

Move with all due speed, Archangel, and keep us all informed as to the progress of St Gabriel’s iconodules. The good folk in Guelph Ontario were successful in warding off the wreckovator-priest Vasco, though the silly pastor had to pay him his 56,000.00 USD ‘architect’s fee’ to be rid of him. ‘A

@descamps wrote:

Hi Archangel and welcome to the thread.

Just because St. Gabriel’s is not a listed building does not mean that you have no options to prevent an unwanted and and unwelcome redevelopment of its interior. Not being listed mearly means that you have not the same range of options available to you as the Friends of St. Colman’s had.

1. An ecclesiastical recourse should be taken by the parishioners or a group of parishioners against the parish priest and Archbishop Martin at the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline fo the Sacraments in Rome. The procedure is straight forward enough but would be more securely followed had you the guidance and expertise of a canonist available to you. Simply write to the parish priest and Archbishop Martin asking them to rescind or amend the decrees that were issued (if issued at all) authorising the development of the interior of the church. If they agree to do so well and good. If not, and you do not hear from them within 28 days (and register your letters with a form of registration requiring signature for delivery) then you can place your case directly before the Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments as a recourse and ask him to decide the merits of the case. Of course, while this is going on no work can or should take place.

2. Just as a precautionary measure, while your recopurse is going on you could approach the High Court seeking an order to prohibit development of the interior of the church until a decision is given in the ecclesiastical forum i.e. by the Congregation for Divine Worship adn the Discipline of the Sacraments.

3. It would also be useful to engage the services of a good company of solicitors. The Friends of St. Colman’s Cathedral were very well served by Arthur Cox and Co., Earlsford Terrace, Dublin 2.

Is it true that the great open minded Dirmuid Martin shafted the local curate when he came out in support of the parishioners opposed to the development of the church interior?

Is it true that the great open minded Dirmuid Martin shafted the local curate when he came out in support of the parishioners opposed to the development of the church interior?

Rhabanus smells corruption – and bullyism – and they stink the high heavens!

Cheers to descamps for advising the good Archangel to initiate the due process. No time to waste, Archangel! Use that angelic gift of agility to start the ball rolling.

I shouldn’t be surprised, though, if the wrecking ball slipped into gear before the process got off the ground. When dealing with Iconoclasts, one can never be up too early in the morning – literally! They like to get in before cock-crow so that when the faithful arrive for early Mass, the dirty deed is done and then suddenly no funds are available to repair the damage. But just watch the improvements added to the rectory or parish house. The Ven. J.H. Newman pointed out in the 19th century that funds were scarce for improvements to the church but readily available for improvements to the rectory. What a coincidence!!

Move with all due speed, Archangel, and keep us all informed as to the progress of St Gabriel’s iconodules. The good folk in Guelph Ontario were successful in warding off the wreckovator-priest Vasco, though the silly pastor had to pay him his 56,000.00 USD ‘architect’s fee’ to be rid of him. ‘A