reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches
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@Praxiteles wrote:
Rhabanus!
I thought you might like to puruse this link:
It would help if people consulted Church documents before they put pen to paper and wrote a tissue of inaccuracies regarding liturgical norms and guidelines.
Again, I ask, where is any kind of accountability or responsibility to present things accurately or precisely?
The Honan Chapel, Cork
James Cronin of UCC has kindly reminded us that the 90th. anniversary of the consecration of the Honan Chapel will recur on 5th. November 2006.
It looks as though some further work has been carried out o the chapel and I am glad to report that the great silver sanctuary lamp has been re-instated in the sanctuary of the chapel. It was needlessly removed during
a silly reordering of the chapel carried out in 1983. ALso removed at that time was the magnificent grille on the west door and the altar rail. It is to be hoped that both of these items can still be located so taht they too can be restored to their original positions from which no liturgical provision of the post-COnciliar reform required their destruction or removal.@Praxiteles wrote:
The Honan Chapel, Cork
James Cronin of UCC has kindly reminded us that the 90th. anniversary of the consecration of the Honan Chapel will recur on 5th. November 2006.
It looks as though some further work has been carried out o the chapel and I am glad to report that the great silver sanctuary lamp has been re-instated in the sanctuary of the chapel. It was needlessly removed during
a silly reordering of the chapel carried out in 1983. ALso removed at that time was the magnificent grille on the west door and the altar rail. It is to be hoped that both of these items can still be located so taht they too can be restored to their original positions from which no liturgical provision of the post-COnciliar reform required their destruction or removal.I hope that All Saints Day is still marked with due solemnity in Ireland. Are any particular customs observed in the various regions? Is there a single church in Ireland especially famous for celebrating All Saints?
In St Peter’s-in-the-Vatican, all the relics of the saints contained in the treasury are placed on the high altar for the veneration of the faithful. At San Marco in the Piazza Venezia, Rome, a splendid display of relics in their exquisite reliquaries takes place on All Saints Day as well as on the feast of St Mark I (the pope and martyr – NOT the evangelist Mark).
Since the pontificate of Benedict XV (1914-22), all priests throughout the world are permitted to celebrate three Masses on All Souls Day (2 November). According to current liturgical legislation, the vestments for Mass on All Souls may be black, violet, or white.
Recall that a plenary indulgence applicable only to the souls of the faithful departed may be obtained once a day from 1 – 8 November by those who devoutly visit a cemetery and there pray for the repose of souls of the faithful departed, and for the intentions of the Pope. Sacramental confession and Holy Communion are also required at least two weeks before or two weeks after the visit to the cemetery. In order to obtain the indulgence, one must have no attachment to sin, even venial sin.
Happy Feast of All Saints!
I am aware that 6 November is the Feast of All Saints of Ireland. Is there a church with that dedication in Ireland?
Re. #1608
Perhaps St Patrick’s, Maynooth ought to offer a few courses on art and architecture as well as a few dedicated to theories of aesthetic. This tasteless menage could be featured on a page in the textbook of horrors to be avoided.Deformity, grotesquery, and an unhealthy attraction to the bizarre seem to dominate religious ‘art’ and ‘architecture’ in today’s Ireland. Will somebody bring the Irish clergy to their senses? The Emperor is wearing NO CLOTHES. And the Sacred Heart is missing a plinth.
Rhabanus,
Where do you think the cretins learned all this stuff in the first place – St. Patrick’s Maynooth, of course!!!@Gianlorenzo wrote:
Re. #1608
Perhaps St Patrick’s, Maynooth ought to offer a few courses on art and architecture as well as a few dedicated to theories of aesthetic. This tasteless menage could be featured on a page in the textbook of horrors to be avoided.Deformity, grotesquery, and an unhealthy attraction to the bizarre seem to dominate religious ‘art’ and ‘architecture’ in today’s Ireland. Will somebody bring the Irish clergy to their senses? The Emperor is wearing NO CLOTHES. And the Sacred Heart is missing a plinth.
Rhabanus,
Where do you think the cretins learned all this stuff in the first place – St. Patrick’s Maynooth, of course!!!Gianlorenzo,
The logical response to this situation, then, ought to be a close reckoning of accounts. It is the very definition of corruption that a body cannot heal itself.
I note, incidentally, that much of the chapel at St Patrick’s Maynooth looks to be in pretty good shape – at least according to the images featured earlier on this thread.
The seminary seems the ideal place to start to introduce a spiritual, liturgical, ecclesial renewal. The potential is there. It requires authentic leadership, however, to bring potency into act.
Of course if believing, observant, and articulate layfolk merely sit in the pews nodding approval at every new erosion of their religious, artistic, and cultural patrimony, then authentic renewal will take that much longer to come to fruition. Perhaps, as in the case of the classic alcoholic, one has to reach ‘rock bottom’ before any serious change comes about. The seminary, though, ought to be the seedbed of new hope.
The chapel in Maynooth is still in good shape, but have you seen what they have done to St. Mary’s Oratory?
Take a look at #271 on page 11 of this thread.
Concerning believing observant articulate layfolk – they are around and they are trying, but many have found it impossible to get a sympathetic hearing from their clergy many of whom appear to consider obedience to the local liturgical clique more important than obedience to the norms of Catholic liturgy. Some of us are now trying to get these articulate layfolk to go directly to the Vatican with their complaints, but it will take time to get the word around.@Gianlorenzo wrote:
The chapel in Maynooth is still in good shape, but have you seen what they have done to St. Mary’s Oratory?
Take a look at #271 on page 11 of this thread.
Concerning believing observant articulate layfolk – they are around and they are trying, but many have found it impossible to get a sympathetic hearing from their clergy many of whom appear to consider obedience to the local liturgical clique more important than obedience to the norms of Catholic liturgy. Some of us are now trying to get these articulate layfolk to go directly to the Vatican with their complaints, but it will take time to get the word around.I shouldn’t be surprised that they have found it impossible to get a sympathetic hearing from the source of the problem! They ought not seek ‘a sympathetic hearing’ but rather inform the local clique that ‘enough is enough,’ that they [said clique] have overdrawn their credit, and that forthwith ALL financial support will be withdrawn and shall resume upon evidence that monies will be spent more judiciously. This does not violate the precept of the Church to contribute to the support of her pastors. [You may be amazed at how such talk immediately commands the attention of the administrative elite.] No precept of the Church, it should be remembered, compels Catholics to contribute to their own demise or to the alienation or destruction of Church property. Send the money to the best bishop, or else send it directly to Rome.
Take a leaf from Australia’s tome. How do you think that the relentlessly self-destructive trends prevalent for decades Downunder were reversed virtually overnight? How do you think George Pell was appointed to Melbourne, then to Sydney? How do you think that Australia won the bid for World Youth Day in Sydney? It didn’t happen by unvarnished insouciance, nor by the nervous twiddling of thumbs, nor the frenetic gnashing of teeth over bountiful cups of tea. It took place by sheer steely determination on the part of a handful of astute Australian laity who had had ENOUGH and who finally decided to blow the whistle and call the question.
It can (and should) be done in Ireland, too. Complacency gets one nowhere, as anyone plugged into the Celtic Tiger will tell you straight up. The Gospel tells us, “Where your treasure is, there also is your heart.”
@Praxiteles wrote:
Re Richard Hurley’s “job” on St. Mary’s Oratory in Maynooth, one can say that the standard milking-stool-inspired tuffets have mercifully been replaced by a more conventional chair redolent of influences ranging from provincial English regency dining chair to the more domestic kitchen chair. As for the “president’s” chair and its accompanying stools, it is not clear to me where the inspiration for this amalgam comes from – though I think I saw something reminiscent of it in an animated version of Walt Disney’s Beauty and the Beast. It is very interesting to note in this picture that none of the chairs has a kneeler to accomodate anyone who might wish to kneel down. It was perhaps to this phenomenon that Kieron Wood was referring to in an article published on 4 November 2005 in the Sunday Business Post. Apparently, unlawful disciplinary measures are taken against those in the Maynooth Menge who refuse to be socialized into Volk by resorting to such anti-social and psychotic behaviour as kneeling down. Clearly, it is no accident that the chapel is designed and laid out in a fashiion that is contrary to the current (post Vatican II) liturgical norms for the celebration of the Mass and disturbing because of some of the underlying concepts of liturgy as socialization whose sinister origins are to be found in German writers of the inter-war period – which should immediately counsel caution. How far is it from Volksgeist to corporate or aggragate or communal liturgy – none of which concepts makes even a fleeting appearance in Vatican II’s Sacroscantum Concilium ?
The reason for the enormous organ case in St. Mary’s Oratory, a relatively small space, is beyond me. ALso, placing the organ against the east wall obscures one of the more charming archictectural elements of the original chapel – namely, an enormous, simple, plain wall pierced only once by a tiny squat doorway.
Attachment 1 is a view of the Chapel as originally dcorated.
Attachment 2 is a view of the Chapel following the 1966 reordering (note the size of the organ)Thank you, Praxiteles, for providing the photos from #271 on page 11 of this thread, and to Gianlorenzo for bringing them to our notice. If this is how the future clergy of Ireland are being forced to worship and to think liturgically, then all I can say, folks is, “You got trouble … in River City ….”
By the way, I came across this statement on one of the pages of the website of the Diocese of Cloyne:
“Professor Cathal O’Neill is highly regarded in his profession. As Head of the School of Architecture in UCD, he had educated a whole generation of architects. His work in the Pro-Cathedral in Dublin is regarded as having been done with great sensitivity in keeping with the requirements of a more communal liturgical celebration.”
So, you have a whole generation (or more) of seminarians herded into the spartan IBM waiting room titled “St Mary’s Oratory” and a whole generation of architects emerging from the tutelage of Cathal O’Neill. God Save Ireland!
@Rhabanus wrote:
Thank you, Praxiteles, for providing the photos from #271 on page 11 of this thread, and to Gianlorenzo for bringing them to our notice. If this is how the future clergy of Ireland are being forced to worship and to think liturgically, then all I can say, folks is, “You got trouble … in River City ….”
By the way, I came across this statement on one of the pages of the website of the Diocese of Cloyne:
“Professor Cathal O’Neill is highly regarded in his profession. As Head of the School of Architecture in UCD, he had educated a whole generation of architects. His work in the Pro-Cathedral in Dublin is regarded as having been done with great sensitivity in keeping with the requirements of a more communal liturgical celebration.”
So, you have a whole generation (or more) of seminarians herded into the spartan IBM waiting room titled “St Mary’s Oratory” and a whole generation of architects emerging from the tutelage of Cathal O’Neill. God Save Ireland!
Rhabanus!
In contarst to the modern interior inflicted by Richard Hurley on St. Mary’s Oratory in Maynooth, I would like you to take a look at the attached image: the classical elegance of the interior of the church in Dunmanway, Co. Cork:
@Praxiteles wrote:
Rhabanus!
In contarst to the modern interior inflicted by Richard Hurley on St. Mary’s Oratory in Maynooth, I would like you to take a look at the attached image: the classical elegance of the interior of the church in Dunmanway, Co. Cork:
The first image makes sense. Beautiful play of light from the north window on the sanctuary. Marble is most worthy of the altars. I admire the graceful sanctuary lamp hanging directly in front of the tabernacle. The statues of the Sacred Heart and Our Lady, each in its static pose, fit the classical architecture.
Not pleased, however, about the stations of the cross running along the galleries. In my view they ought to go along the walls, not the balconies. I find them rather distracting in the first image and downright silly running along the choir loft in the second image.
Why was the organ case not arranged in such a way as to admit the light from the window in the west wall?
Are plans afoot to massacre this lovely house of God, too, and replace it with an Abomination of Desolation like St Mary’s Oratory for Embalmed Shakers?
I could pray in Dunmanway, but more fervently without the distraction of the stations of the cross hanging off the balconies. I’ll wager that the original stations were oil paintings that fit harmoniously on the walls of the church.
Have a chat with the rector there, will you?
Colour scheme is not bad, but the retro-fitted speakers hanging off the walls are tacky. There must be a more effective and aesthetical way to transmit sound. The arrangement of the lectern and chair could do with some sprucing up. I suspect that a pulpit must have graced this church at one time. Poke around in the basement and see if it’s still there. The chair can easily be moved over to the epistle side with the celebrant facing liturgical north – towards the current podium. The altar would go very nicely back up near the tabernacle, so the priest could pray without distractions as he leads God’s pilgrim people in prayer eastward toward the New Jerusalem our Mother. The reredos is a real treat for the eyes: graceful and elegant.
A far cry from the arrangement of the St Mary’s Oratory which resembles a Quaker Meeting Hall that could easily substitute for an Alcoholic Anonymous hall.
A book not to be missed, although some of the photographs could be better:
http://www.four-courts-press.ie/cgi/bookshow.cgi?file=highVictorian.xml
More Info on the 2002/2003 Restoration/ Reordering of Armagh Cathedral.
According to a new book (by Jack O’Hare) published this year to commemorate the restoration, the original intention of the work was simply to restore the fabric of the building and that the 1982 McCormack sanctuary was to have been reinstated. It was only during the course of the work that a decision was made to install a new sanctuary. A brief chronology is as follows:
January 2002 – Cathedral Closes for major structural repairs/restoration. All interior fittings are removed to storage at this time. The granite floor of the sanctuary was included in this removal, revealing the remains of the 1904 mosaic floor, however this was deemed irrepairable.
Spring 2002, growing desire to re-order the sancutary, Architectural firms asked to submit their proposals for a “fresh approach”.
May 2002 – Rooney and McConville design chosen.
Summer 2002 – consultation meetings held.
September 2002 – Desicion made to go ahead with the reordering.
May 25th 2003 – Cathedral reopened.Comments please!
Who, other than our corresponding fiend Brian Quinn, tendered a project for the re-reordering (it is beginning to sound a bit like regicideicide) ?
Were submissions judged by a committee?
What august personages sat on that committee -if there were one?
What criteria were used to access the submissions made?
[can we have the publishing details of this latest book?]
@Praxiteles wrote:
Who, other than our corresponding fiend Brian Quinn, tendered a project for the re-reordering (it is beginning to sound a bit like regicideicide) ?
Were submissions judged by a committee?
What august personages sat on that committee -if there were one?
What criteria were used to access the submissions made?
[can we have the publishing details of this latest book?]
Book mentions the following firms:
P&B Gregory’s, Tracey McCormack & Mullarkey, Rooney McConvilleCommittee is listed in the appendices.
Interestingly, Bill Early was responsible for restoring the ceiling. Some spelling mistakes were found in the latin inscruiptions discussed earlier in the thread. Bill also restored the murals in the synod hall and using artistic license, replaced the head on one of the central figures with that of Archbishop Brady!
The book also makes apparent that the former auxilliary – Bishop Lennon was perhaps the main champion of the 1982 changes, he delivered the homily at the rededication, rather than Cardinal O’Fiach.
“the story of St patrick’s Cathedral Armagh and its Prelates” jack O’Hare – printed by Trimprint Ltd, Armagh. No ISBN #
I really wonder whether someone working in the early 21st. century is in a position to recognise spelling mistakes in the Lain inscriptions of the late 19th century. Put the other way around, is someone in the late 19th century working on Latin inscriptions likely to have made mistakes? I also wonder whether their 21st. century successors are aware of the complex transmission history of several texts of even the Sixto-Clementine edition of the Vulgate from which these inscriptions are almst certainly taken? However, we shall see.
As to caboshing poor Archbishop Brady, I should have thought it more than enough to leave him without the galero!
@Praxiteles wrote:
I really wonder whether someone working in the early 21st. century is in a position to recognise spelling mistakes in the Lain inscriptions of the late 19th century. Put the other way around, is someone in the late 19th century working on Latin inscriptions likely to have made mistakes? I also wonder whether their 21st. century successors are aware of the complex transmission history of several texts of even the Sixto-Clementine edition of the Vulgate from which these inscriptions are almst certainly taken? However, we shall see.
As to caboshing poor Archbishop Brady, I should have thought it more than enough to leave him without the galero!
Book makes out that the 19th century artists must “not have been educated men”.. I would be sceptical as well..
@Fearg wrote:
Book makes out that the 19th century artists must “not have been educated men”.. I would be sceptical as well..
Cabosh the dim dope who wrote that bit of crap!
Attached is a picture of the front panel depicting the Last Supper from the original High Altar of the Cathedral of St. Mary and St. Anne’s in Cork. The panel is by John Hogan and is currentlyon exhibit in the Crawford Gallery.
A further note on John Hogan:
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