reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches
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This is an unqualified disaster marked by the same dim-witted lack of imagination. What, might I ask, are those railings doing on the altar rail?
@Rhabanus wrote:
Praxiteles,
I am not recommending “the American scene” or American architects en bloc. I merely suggest that Irish bishops, when their heads stop spinning and they begin paying attention to their primary vocation, are going to have to call on leaders in the field of liturgy and architecture.My earlier remarks about AWN Pugin as a real liturgist as well as a brilliant architect implied that such genius is lacking in Ireland, hence the need to look for expertise from abroad.
There are always tares among the wheat, but when a promising field of wheat begins to manifest itself, it may be worth transplanting some of the best samples. I mention Stroik and Smith, who have completed some excellent houses of worship (churches, monasteries, seminary) and who are being given some impressive commissions.
Consider their work, then have a second look at what your local geniuses have on offer.
Caveat patronus!
No need to take a look at the local geniuses. The last posting just indicates the lack of imagination and Wissenshaft. In large part this derives from the fact that archoitecture in Ireland is dominated by the UCD school which is decidedly modern and, up to recently, the bailiwick of the great Professor Cathal O’Neill. A European Union effort to dilute this monopoly by insisting on the foundation of another faculty outside of Dublin only compounded matters. Efforts to have the Notre Dame Indiana school open a school of architecture were scuppered and another branch of the Dublin modern school was opened in Limerick – and that was called “diversification”. Unless and until we see some genuine pluralism in the teaching of architecture in Ireland we are condemned to face the time-warp for the foreseeable future.
@jmrowland wrote:
I would be interested in getting people’s read on what is being done with Sacred Heart Church in Peoria – http://sacredheartpeoria.com/index.html – personally, I think that the result is quite beautiful, but I have some reservations! If the link doesn’t work, copy and paste it into your browser. Gallery 1 is before, the others are during and after.
Absolutely wonderful renovation. It looks as if Sacred Heart in Peoria had suffered a previous re-ordering similar to the destruction wrought on many Irish Churches. It is heartening to see how wonderfully such devastation can be turned around. It give hope for the many vandalised Irish Churches and Cathedrals we have seen on this thread.
@Praxiteles wrote:
This is an unqualified disaster marked by the same dim-witted lack of imagination. What, might I ask, are those railings doing on the altar rail?
Not surprising really – if you look at that firm’s portfolio, they specialise in pubs/restaurants and yes dormer bungalows..
@Praxiteles wrote:
What was the name of the firm?
MH Associates, Letterkenny – http://www.mhassociates.ie
Here is a mouthful of self-satisfying guff for you:
Church Of The All Saints
Church Of The All Saints, Newtowncunningham, Co. Donegal.
Designed and based on St. Peter’s Barque, the Church Of The All Saints displays some of the fine stonework that native to Donegal. With a high ceiling interior the church gives a fresh feeling and with various meeting rooms internally the Church was designed to provide a vital amenity for the area, as well as being very aesthetically pleasing.Completed 1999.
This must surely make the short list for horror interiors.
@Praxiteles wrote:
Here is a mouthful of self-satisfying guff for you:
Church Of The All Saints
Church Of The All Saints, Newtowncunningham, Co. Donegal.
Designed and based on St. Peter’s Barque, the Church Of The All Saints displays some of the fine stonework that native to Donegal. With a high ceiling interior the church gives a fresh feeling and with various meeting rooms internally the Church was designed to provide a vital amenity for the area, as well as being very aesthetically pleasing.Completed 1999.
This must surely make the short list for horror interiors.
and they demolished a rather nice old chapel to make way for that.. I think they were trying to do a “St Aengus'” at Burt, which is the next church down the road from Newton..
You are perfectly correct, Fearg, but this attempt foundered. I must say the port holes are very fetching!
@Praxiteles wrote:
You are perfectly correct, Fearg, but this attempt foundered. I must say the port holes are very fetching!
and for those of you who do not know Burt – its quite respectable, defintiely Liam McCormack’s best work.
Link to a couple of photos from Archiseek:
http://www.irish-architecture.com/infobase/riai/riai_gold_medal_winners_staengus.html
And some interior shots:
http://www.lamp.ac.uk/trs/Special_Research_Interests/burt.htm
Definitely works best when seen from outside!
@Praxiteles wrote:
This is an unqualified disaster marked by the same dim-witted lack of imagination. What, might I ask, are those railings doing on the altar rail?
Sacred Heart Carndonagh, it dominates the town:
[ATTACH]3203[/ATTACH]
@Fearg wrote:
and for those of you who do not know Burt – its quite respectable, defintiely Liam McCormack’s best work.
Link to a couple of photos from Archiseek:
http://www.irish-architecture.com/infobase/riai/riai_gold_medal_winners_staengus.html
And some interior shots:
http://www.lamp.ac.uk/trs/Special_Research_Interests/burt.htm
Definitely works best when seen from outside!
I read the blurb provided by The Arts Council of Aelion about the “gold medal winner”:
“The eminent Donegal architect Liam McCormick designed St. Aengus’ Church or ‘Burt Chapel’ as it is locally known during the period of 1964-67.McCormicks distinct ability to read a site and produce remarkable buildings from that, sets him apart from any of his Irish church architect peers.”
What, may I ask, is the obsession with circlular churches and circular sanctuaries? Everything is turned in on itself. Seems eerily Freudian to me – too much narcissism and self-absorption being transmitted through the architectural idiom. Then consider what Ireland has been through ecclesiastically over the last forty years ….
Long rectangular naves conducting substantial processions of clergy into an apse glittering with mosaics seem far more vigorous, assertive, and virile than these round mounds. In churches built with cruciformity one expereinces movement rather than stasis, engagement rather than introspection, leadership rather than withdrawal and detachment. As I have stated more than once on this thread, liturgical architecture betrays the state of the church in a given place.
I hope that Rome is taking due notice of what has transpired in Ireland over the last forty years. The architectural disasters have left abundant hieroglyphs and petraglyphs. Time to read the writing on the wall: “Counted, weighed, and found wanting.”
@Rhabanus wrote:
I read the blurb provided by The Arts Council of Aelion about the “gold medal winner”:
“The eminent Donegal architect Liam McCormick designed St. Aengus’ Church or ‘Burt Chapel’ as it is locally known during the period of 1964-67.McCormicks distinct ability to read a site and produce remarkable buildings from that, sets him apart from any of his Irish church architect peers.”
What, may I ask, is the obsession with circlular churches and circular sanctuaries? Everything is turned in on itself. Seems eerily Freudian to me – too much narcissism and self-absorption being transmitted through the architectural idiom. Then consider what Ireland has been through ecclesiastically over the last forty years ….
Long rectangular naves conducting substantial processions of clergy into an apse glittering with mosaics seem far more vigorous, assertive, and virile than these round mounds. In churches built with cruciformity one expereinces movement rather than stasis, engagement rather than introspection, leadership rather than withdrawal and detachment. As I have stated more than once on this thread, liturgical architecture betrays the state of the church in a given place.
I hope that Rome is taking due notice of what has transpired in Ireland over the last forty years. The architectural disasters have left abundant hieroglyphs and petraglyphs. Time to read the writing on the wall: “Counted, weighed, and found wanting.”
Rhabanus,
I would normally agree, however I think we need to make an exception for Burt! Its built close to one of the most important prehistoric sites in Ireland, the Grianan of Aileach, the church design is influenced by that (and, I know, strictly speaking it probably shouldn’t have been). Its an iconic building though and it works very well in its setting – photos really don’t do it justice. The clever idea of building a smaller circle inside a larger one, gives you the ability to have recessed baptistry, confessionals, sacristy etc, integrated into the main building whilst creating a very “clean” exterior. The only real problem I have with Burt, is that it was probably the first circular church in Ireland and many have tried (and failed) to imitate it since. The interior furnishings could be better though.Link to some information about the building which inspired the church:
http://www.stonepages.com/ireland/grianan.html@Fearg wrote:
Superb job..
By means of comparision – here is a recently renovated Church of the Sacred Heart in Co Donegal, Ireland:
Fearg,
Thanks for the pics of Sacred Heart, Carndonagh, Co. Donegal. The screen erected on the communion rail looks like the framework of an iconostasis]de novo[/I] on the basis of a pagan temple, whether Celtic or Germanic, Greek or Roman, is ill-advised because of the messgae conveyed by the architecture.
The earliest public churches were modelled on the basilica, not the Temple in Jerusalem, nor the pagan temples of the Roman Empire. Imitating a pagan mound suggests to me a mistaken direction. Much earlier in hte thread, around p. 53 or 54, Praxiteles pointed out the disturbing parallels between Our Lady of the Wayside and an ancient druidic mound, one which has been rather well preserved.
The Christian church should draw on distinctly Christian sources and resources when designed or constructed de novo. After all, what is most worthy of imitation?
@Rhabanus wrote:
Fearg,
Thanks for the pics of Sacred Heart, Carndonagh, Co. Donegal. The screen erected on the communion rail looks like the framework of an iconostasis]de novo[/I] on the basis of a pagan temple, whether Celtic or Germanic, Greek or Roman, is ill-advised because of the messgae conveyed by the architecture.
The earliest public churches were modelled on the basilica, not the Temple in Jerusalem, nor the pagan temples of the Roman Empire. Imitating a pagan mound suggests to me a mistaken direction. Much earlier in hte thread, around p. 53 or 54, Praxiteles pointed out the disturbing parallels between Our Lady of the Wayside and an ancient druidic mound, one which has been rather well preserved.
The Christian church should draw on distinctly Christian sources and resources when designed or constructed de novo. After all, what is most worthy of imitation?
Having said all that, IMHO Burt is a much better building than Our Lady of the Wayward, both in concept and execution. I can also guarantee that if it were suggested to the local community that Burt should be replaced with a more traditional building, there would be uproar!
Nothing better illustrates the slump of Irish ecclesiastical architecture into introspective eccentricity than the contarst between the Church of the Sacred Heart in Carndonagh, Co. Donegal, which was consecrated in 1945 and the dreadful effort of MH Associates of Letterkenny and Derry who extructed All Saints in Newtowncunningham in 1999. In the short space of 54 years, the decline has been so thorough and far reaching that not even a Cross was infixed on the highest point a church. It is perhaps telling that the website of MH Associates of Letterkenny and Derry who built All Saints does not even have a category of “church” or “ecclesiastical” in its projects’ list. All Saints is listed under “community” and could just as easliy be a hall or a dispensery. The multi-functionality of the building is a further reason for unease. It would seem that this particular set of practitioners are not too farmiliar with the meaning of the term “consecration” (con-sacratio), that is to say a setting aside or a cutting off of something which is made over exclusively to the service of God. Clearly, we are here dealing with …hay-barn builders!
@Praxiteles wrote:
Nothing better illustrates the slump of Irish ecclesiastical architecture into introspective eccentricity than the contarst between the Church of the Sacred Heart in Carndonagh, Co. Donegal, which was consecrated in 1945 and the dreadful effort of MH Associates of Letterkenny and Derry who extructed All Saints in Newtowncunningham in 1999. In the short space of 54 years, the decline has been so thorough and far reaching that not even a Cross was infixed on the highest point a church. It is perhaps telling that the website of MH Associates of Letterkenny and Derry who built All Saints does not even have a category of “church” or “ecclesiastical” in its projects’ list. All Saints is listed under “community” and could just as easliy be a hall or a dispensery. The multi-functionality of the building is a further reason for unease. It would seem that this particular set of practitioners are not too farmiliar with the meaning of the term “consecration” (con-sacratio), that is to say a setting aside or a cutting off of something which is made over exclusively to the service of God. Clearly, we are here dealing with …hay-barn builders!
Come, now, Praxiteles, God has had the Kingdom for far too long, now. Time for the Celtic Tiger to take God’s place and get a piece of the action. No more ‘wasting’ good resources on ‘religion and all that stuff.’
The good christian entrepreneur likes multi-purpose buildings in order to ensure the flow of all things bright and beautiful, especially $$$$$. After all, we ARE community, so let’s be broad-minded and keep all our options open. Let the old folks have their altars and statues, then fold them up and roll them (altar and statues, not necessarily the old folks) out of the way as the building is transformed into a school by day and a pub-casino by night. That way EVERYBODY gets some benefit from the community ‘centre.’ God gets His cut of the pie, and we get all the rest. Fair and square.
Seriously, though, Ireland seems to have reached a spiritual nadir in the past twenty years of temporal prosperity. What the Irish faithful refused to abandon through twelve hundred years of oppression and affliction, they have tossed away with unmitigated zeal within a single generation.
The great Gothic Revivalist Augustus Welby Pugin was not merely a clever or even a brilliant architect]Early Victorian Architecture in Britain [/I](London: Trewin Copplestone, 1954), vol. I, p. 13, Pugin’s was an “essentially religious crusade deeply imbued with values both ethical and sacramental.” John Betjeman actually deplored Pugin’s Gothic Revival because it evidently was “all mixed up with social morality and religion” Ghastly Good Taste (London: Anthony Blond Ltd, 1933), p. 31. Both quotations are cited in Christabel Powell, Augustus Welby Pugin Designer of the British Houses of Parliament (Lewiston NY and Queenston ON and Lampeter UK: The Edwin Mellen Press, 2006), pp. 24 and 25.
On that note, has anyone heard tell of bq’s Statement of Vision or Apologia pro opere suo or Summa of Liturgical Architecture or Exposition of Architecture in the Service of Sacred Liturgy? Might he be putting the final touches on it? Could he be having it proofread by Paddy J? We are all awaiting Argus-eyed its illustrious advent either on this thread or in local bookstores. It is doubtless bound to raise the academic level of this thread when it finally hits the proverbial fan.
By the way, be sure to get your copy of Christabel Powell, Augustus Welby Pugin Designer of the British Houses of Parliament: The Victorian Quest for a Liturgical Architecture (Lewiston NY and Queenston ON and Lampeter UK: The Edwin Mellen Press, 2006). Have your local library order a copy, too, so your less affluent neighbours can avail themselves of this fascinating tome.
A key to AWN Pugin’s vast influence on the Church and on other architects was the fact that he left an intellectual and spiritual testament of his vision. Christabel Powell [Augustus Welby Pugin Designer of the Houses of Parliament: The Victorian Quest for a Liturgical Architecture (Pellen Press, 2006), pp. 25-26, cites John Betjeman, Collins Guide to English Parish Churches (London: Collins, 1958), p. 69: It is not in his buildings but in his writing that Pugin had so great an influence on the men of his time.” Pugin himself wrote to John Hardman in 1851: “My writings more than what I have been able to do have revolutionised the Taste of England” (cited by Powell, p. 26)
Still eager to read bq’s Manifesto on Liturgical Architecture ….
The Church of the Holy Cross, Charleville, Co. Cork
I am posting these two images of the mosaic on the wall of the sanctuary which are probably by Ludwig Oppenheimer. Note the combination of a byzantine style with ats and crafts movement. Unfortunately, sections of the mosaci have blistered and are about to fall off of the wall due to water ingress. So far, nothing has been done to arrest the deterioration of this important work of art.
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