reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches
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The more I look at this, the more I am convinced that the last effort at “restoring” Armagh was a lost opportunity. Something much more in keeping with the pre-1904 arrangements could quite easily have been installed and would have been both esthetically and financially more satisfactory than it is now.
I expect that the next historic opportunity will arise with dim Duffy’s departure from Monaghan and the centainty that the horrors with which he burdened the interior will follow him shortly after. I think we should begin to prepare for that eventuality sooner rather than later and ensure that all of the necessary historical groundwork has been done so as to avoid the Armagh solution.
On the subject of Monaghan, has anyone been able to dig out images of the interior prior to the current arrangements? Thanks!
As a comparison with the Armagh ceiling, I am attaching some pictures of the ceiling in the College Chapel (JJ. McCarthy) in Maynooth. The Chapel is internally 188 feet long, 40 feet wide and 70 feet high. The ceilig and internal furnishings of the chapel were installed by Robert Browne who subsequently became Bishop of Cloyne and completed the building of St. Colman’s Cathedral. The contract went to JJ. McCarthy’s successor, WIlliam Hague. The artist was N. H. C. Westlake and the execution was left to Robert Mannix of Dublin. The ceiling panels are painted on canvas and affixed to the wooden ceiling. The wok was carried out between March and December 1888:
Apologies in advance for this photo as it is more concerned with the exterior than the interior of St. Colmans. I took this in August and thought readers of this thread might find them interesting. The imposing sight of St. Colman’s is something that has to be seen to be believed. (Will add more shots later)
To return to the question of the present floor in the crossing in Armagh, and on the use of tiles, and of kinds of tines that might be used in these circumstances, I am posting the ling to the article Dallage from E. Viollet-le-Duc’s Dictionnaire Raisonné:
If tiles have to be used rather than mosaic, then A.W.N. Pugin’s superb masterpuiece, St. Giles at Cheadle, illustrates what we should expect to see in a neo-gothic church:
Note the inscriptions on the steps. These are psalm versicles taken from Psalm 42 used at the beginning of Mass before the priest ascended to the Altar: Introibo ad Altare Dei. Ad Deum qui laetificat iuventutem meam. Judica me Deus et discerne causam meam. E gente non sancta; ab homine iniquo et doloso erue me. Quia tu es Deus fortitudo mea; quare me repulisti etc.. Clearly, this is no place for frivolity and there are no acres squiggles all over the place.
[for more information on St Giles see here:http://images.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http://www.tilesoc.org.uk/images/wpe11650.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.tilesoc.org.uk/dpagecheadle.htm&h=426&w=276&sz=108&hl=en&start=9&tbnid=DmLNBAV7KrPvrM:&tbnh=126&tbnw=82&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dst%2Bgiles%2Bcheadle%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN ]
@Chuck E R Law wrote:
A most impressive debut by Rhuburanus, with him iconography becomes pornography.
Constructive and gentlemanly as ever Chuck !!!!!!!!!!!!!
In the light of the conversation that we have been having on the present liturgical arrangement of Armagh Cathedral, I was wondering if perhaps Brian Quinn had anything to say on the subject.
@Fearg wrote:
DETAILS OF THE CEILINGS
Moving from the sanctuary towards the organ gallery on the South side:
1 The apparition of the Angel to St Patrick.
2 St Martin of Tours gives St Patrick the religious habit.
3 St Patrick receives the mission from Pope Celestine.
4 His dispute with the Druids.
5 The vocation of St Benignus.
6 St Benignus recalling to life the daughter of King Daire.
7 St Brigid blessing her monastery at Kildare.
8 St Brigid giving sight to sister Dara.
9 St Columcille receiving the cranes from Ireland.
10 Prophecy of St Columcille to Eman.
11 St Columbanus founding his monastery at Bobbio.
12 St Ita and her companions guided by an angel.On the North side, beginning at the organ gallery:
1 Death of St Dympna.
2 St Brendan sails on his voyage
3 St Aidan blessing the hands of Gobban.
4 St Colman teaching at Lismore.
5 St Adamnan writing the life of St Columcille.
6 The Pope blessing St Alban and his brothers.
7 St Virgil founding the cathedral at Salzburg.
8 St Celsus dying, sends his crozier to St ~Malachy.
9 St Malachy chosen as Primate of Armagh.
10 St Malachy helping the plague victims at Armagh.
11 Gelasius consecrates St Laurence O’Toole.
12 St Laurence O’Toole before Henry II of England.Ferg very kindly posted this list of the scenes depicting the history of the Irish Church in Armagh Cathedral. Cobh Cathedral has no major painted works in its internal conception and organisation. It does have a similar variant history which is depicted on carved panels placed in the spandrels of the nave. The history starts at the east end of the nave and runs as follows:
1. St Patrick captured by Niall
2. St. Patrick instructed by St Germain
3. St. P. calls the synod of Cruchan
4. St Fiachs school at Sletty
5. St Brigid founds Kildare
6. St. Columchille preaches to the Picts
7. Synod of Dromceat
8. Sts. Brendan and Ita meet
9- Saran persents a church to Finbarr
10. Comgall founds Bangor
11. St Cumian
12. St. Dympna
13. St Fergal (Virgilius) of Salzburg
14. Synod of KellsSouth side beginning at the west end
1. Rory O’Connor, last High King dies at Cong
2. The founding of Youghal Abbey (by Maurice Fitzgerald for the Franciscans in 1220)
3. Unification of Cloyne and Cork under Bishop Jordan Purcell
4. The trial of Archbishop Hedian of Cashel
5. The Martyrdom of Archbishop Hurley of Cashel
6. Bishop Creagh of Cloyne (and subsequently of Dublin) dies in the tower of London
7. The martyrdom of Br. Dominic Collins S.J. at Youghal
8. The martyrdom of Bishop terence Albert O’Brien of Emly
9. Bishop heber McMahon
10. The nartrrdom of Bishop Boethius McEgan at Clondrohid bridge
11.Rined churchyard
12. Mass in penal times
13. Bishop de Burgo with his book Hibernia Dominicana; Bishop Coppinger flees Youghal
14. Daniel O’Connell wins Catholic Emancipation
15. Bishop Rober Brown presents Cobh Cathedral to God.A second historica series is depicted on the capitals of the nave. beginning on the nrth side, east end they are:
1. Patrick receives his mission from Pope Celestine
2. Patrick preaches at Tara
3. Patrick baptises the king of Cashel
4. Brigid receives the veil from St Mel
5. Brigid cures a leprous boy
6. Columbcille writes the Book of Kells
7. Columcille leaves Ireland
8. St. Colman the bard of Cashel
9. Colombanus instructed by St, Comgall
10. Colombanus and Gall convert Switzerland
11. Killian rebuks the DUke of Wurzburg
12. Killian and the lunatic woman Geilana
13. Malachy visits Pope Innocent IIThe series continues on the south side, west end:
1. The dean and chapter of Cloyne trample on a presumptious warrant of Henry III
2. Blessed Thaddeus McCarthy dies in Ivrea
3. The Blessed Thaddeus appears tot he bihop of Ivrea
4. The legate David WOulfe hears confessions
5. The burning of Our Lady of Tuam and of the Bachall Iosa
6. Bishop Macraidhe dies in hiding in teh Galtees
7. Bishop McRaidhe ordains
8. Luke Wadding writes the Annals of th Four Masters
9. The martyrdom of St Oliver Plunkett at Tyburn
10. Bishop John Baptist Sleyne imprisoned in Cork
11. Bishop Slyne sentenced to transportation to Portugal
12. The Sermon on the mount
13. St. John the Baptist preaches penance
14. The institution of the Blessed EucharistAn eample of the spandril panels: no.15 SouthSide; Bishop Browne presents Cobh Cathedral to God:
Returning to matters of form and symbolism in the wake of our discussion re. the present interior of Armagh and of Drumaroad, I am now posting this picture of a church at Jenkinstown, Co. Meath sporting the very curious title of “Our Lady of the Wayside”.
Looking at this picture strongly recalls something for me but I cannot quite put my finger on it – just yet. Perhaps Rhabanus, or indeed anybody else, might have something to say?
Re: Posting # 1350
Well, I think the penny has finally dropped. Sorry for the delay….getting older! Do not tell me that the sun or moon is not calculated to enter the round aperture on a particluar day of the year.
To return to the subject of painted neo-gothic ceilings, I have another example to post, this time from the Cathedral of St. Peter in London, Ontario. Note the difference of style and motif to demarcate the sanctuary from the nave. The architect for St. Pter’s, London, Ontario was Joseph Connelly, a pupil of JJ. McCarthy. The same technique of differentiating the nave from the sanctuary by changing the motifs and colours of the ceiling is also employed by JJ. McCarthy in Sts. Peter and Paul, Killmallock, Co. Limerick.
@Rhabanus wrote:
What makes Ratzinger such an insightful liturgist is his mastery of ecclesiology…………
Ratzinger reminds us that the Church in her earliest period used to be known as the corpus verum Christi………..
Joseph Ratzinger (The Spirit of the Liturgy) reminds readers that the Pantocrator which dominated the apse of Byzantine and Romaneque churches represented the ascended Lord………
Ratzinger cautions against the solipsism that is the fruit of the congregation turning inwards upon itself rather than oriented towards Christ.
On mature reflection I may have been a little hasty in praising Rubheranus. Having read through his postings again I find that beneath the extravagant prose lies an ultramontanist toady.
His idol, who he refers to as “Ratzinger”, has shown that he is not immune to solipsism himself.
@Chuck E R Law wrote:
On mature reflection I may have been a little hasty in praising Rubheranus. Having read through his postings again I find that beneath the extravagant prose lies an ultramontanist toady.
His idol, who he refers to as “Ratzinger”, has shown that he is not immune to solipsism himself.
I think that should be a “whom” in the last sentence. Tut tut tut chuck chuck….!
@Chuck E R Law wrote:
On mature reflection I may have been a little hasty in praising Rubheranus. Having read through his postings again I find that beneath the extravagant prose lies an ultramontanist toady.
His idol, who he refers to as “Ratzinger”, has shown that he is not immune to solipsism himself.
As opposed to a diocesan ‘toady’, eh Chuck? Thank God there aren’t too many of them in Ireland and England, or heaven knows the state we might be in!
When Benedikt XVI visited the parish church of St. Oswald in his hometown of Marktl am Inn he prayed at the baptismal font where he was baptised in 1927. The font had been used as a garden ornament since the church was reordered in 1965 but was reinstated last Easter as a focal point for visitors.
Incidentally Chuck, it is an academic convention to refer to an author by their surnane when discussing or quoting them in writing. What was Rhabanus meant to have done? Refer to him as Cardinal Ratzinger, as he then was when he wrote the book referred to, but is no longer? Or as Pope Benedict, which he is now but wasn’t then? Or perhaps he should write ‘the then Cardinal Ratzinger’ every time he mentions a piece of his?
@Dieter wrote:
When Benedikt XVI visited the parish church of St. Oswald in his hometown of Marktl am Inn he prayed at the baptismal font where he was baptised in 1927. The font had been used as a garden ornament since the church was reordered in 1965 but was reinstated last Easter as a focal point for visitors.
I notice, Dieter, that this fine baptismal font you mention is now placed directly in front of the old Gothic altar and reredos. Perhaps in such a way as to impede it’s use?
I have also noticed that in many German Gothic medieval churches that passed into Protestant hands that there was a trend to place the baptismal font on the main altar-table axis, presumably to underline the perfect equality of the sacraments in the new theology. I wonder whether that’s going on when modern ‘Catholic’ liturgists seek to place the font in very close proximity to the main altar…. (along with the larger-than-altar-ambo)?
It is nice to know that the popular movement to save the interior of St. Colman’s Cathedral can draw on the writings of no less a personality than Martin Mosebach. The link leads to the translation of a very interesting article by him on the subject of iconoclasm and its inherent denial of the Incarnation:
http://cathcon.blogspot.com/2006/08/iconoclasm-and-liturgy.html
http://www.catholiccitizens.org/platform/platformview.asp?c=8545
http://www.single-generation.de/kohorten/78er/martin_mosebach.htm#neu
@Praxiteles wrote:
It is nice to know that the popular movement to save the interior of St. Colman’s Cathedral can draw on the writings of no less a personality than Martin Mosebach. The link leads to the translation of a very interesting article by him on the subject of iconoclasm and its inherent denial of the Incarnation:
http://cathcon.blogspot.com/2006/08/iconoclasm-and-liturgy.html
I’ve ordered his book ‘The Heresy of Formlessness’ from the Ignatius Press in the US, but it is, alas, taking an age to arrive.
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