reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches
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Brian!
Thanks very much for that clarification. But, may I ask is the Liturgical Institute of the Catholic Theological Union the same thing as the Liturgical Institute founded by Cardinal Francis George, the present Archbishop of Chicago, that is attached to the University of St. Mary at Mindelein?
Here is the link toCardinal Francis George’s Liturgical Institute at Mundelein:
http://www.vocations.org/liturgicalinstitute/liturgicalinstitute.htm
It looks as though we have hit on something interesting and worthwhile here. A conference on church building being promoted by the Liturgical Institute at Mundelein:
Here are the programme details:
If anybody had a moment to spare they might like to take a trip to the windy city!
@brianq wrote:
Hi Prax
may I provide some clarification regarding Built of Living Stones’?
… B[uilt] O[f]L[iving] S[tones] succeeded E[nvironment] and A[rt] in C[atholic] W[orship]. Over the years EACW aroused much antipathy as it was considered fairly radical. I understand that it was often presented during church building renovation projects as ‘authorative’ when in fact it had the same status as the Place of Worship (POW). Also similarly to POW it was issued by the American bishop’s equivalent of our Irish Episcopal Commission on the Liturgy and not he American bishops’ conference (though validly so as the American episcopal liturgy commission were empowered to do so by the conference). As a result of rising resistance to EACW, not least of which by the some of the bishops themselves, and the fact that EACW was not voted upon by the conference, it was decided by the conference to have a new document drawn up (BOLS) and voted upon. It is ironic (for you Prax) that you consider it suspect as the main reason it came into existence was as a result of conservative lobby pressure. Many LCs consider it to be retrograde step.
BQ
(yes as you might have guessed I am a LC and i attended the CTU course).Praxiteles would like to clarify a few small point concerning the above:
1. The term “empowered” is not a canonical term. As we have already said it cannot mean “delegate”. It could mean “authorise” in the sense of authorising the commission to prepare a draft for the plenum of the Conference. If it did, the draft should not have been published. POW is in a similar canonical limbo.
2. Built of Living Stones, hereinafter BALS, describes itself as “guidelines”. This is not a canonical category and hence the doucment, regradless of who published it, lacks the force of law and remains merely at the level of suggestion.
Although BOLS was voted on by the plenum of the United States Bishops Conference, it was not submitted to the Holy See for approval and reception into the legal corpus of the Catholic Church.
In this sense, EACW, BOLS and POW are all on the same canonical plane: they are private publications expressing private ideas.
3. I came across the following canonical commentary on BOLS which rather better explicitates my point :
The Legal Status of “Built of Living Stones”
Question:
What is the legal status of “]
It looks as though the Cobh Cathedral saga was followed with close interest as far away as St. Paul, Minnesota by the redboutable Catholic newspaper The Wanderer. The edition of 22 June 2006 features a front page picture of the cathedral; and this their article published on p. 3 [vol. 139, n.25]:
@Praxiteles wrote:
Praxiteles has just discovered what appears to be the latest fashion in liturgical “reorderings”: that of placing the altar on a plane lower than its surroundings and in some instances dominated by higher planes carrying such items as chairs or even cathedras.
Prax, if I’m reading you’re post correctly you’re insinuating that the church featured in the image you posted is a Catholic one and therefore an example of current thinking in liturgical reordering in the Catholic Church. Well, I can allay your fears and rehabilitate the principle of reordering in your mind at the same time by confirming that the church is in fact a Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran church in Fond du Lac, Wisonsin.
BQ
Hi Prax,
BOLS & POW etc
Your consistent offering of the ‘straw man’ argument that BOLS / POW are not legally binding is becoming irritating now. I know you hate to admit it but we are actually in agreement regarding this point. I have never heard of anyone stating that and I have never stated it in this forum or during the course of my work. Maybe you could let me know when, where and by whom it was said?
however, you can’t seriously believe that POW need only be given the same consideration as any other private document such as you or I might author for instance. It has been published by bishops for heaven sake, and, I might add, wihout demurring from any other irish bishop – or any bishop for that matter. POW deserves our full attention because it pulls together the legislation on spatial requirements and represents the mind of the irish bishops. It has been produced to assist the bishop in his diocese in the discharge of his obligations as all documentation produced by the bishops’ conference is.
BQ
Yes! I am perfectly happy to confirm that we are in agreement that POW has no legal force and therefore cannot bind anyone.
This position, however, has consequences. Canonically, POW is not a “public” document of the Church. Consequently, it can only be a private document and, in canonical terms, the opinions expressed in it are only imputable to the person or persons expressing them – from what I can see the only person who signed it was Joe Duffy, the Bishop of Clogher. That is all I am saying.
For an example of an augmentative use of POW see footnote 38 of the document in the attached link. When referring to POW the use of the term “requirement” is not appropriate and should not be used. Remember the principle ubi lex non distinguit
http://www.foscc.com/downloads/other/Liturgical%20Requirements2.pdf
Describing The Place of Worship as a Directory is also problematic – but we sahll return to that at another time.
It seems strange that POW, which has been around in three editions since 1966, has never had the anomoly of its canonical status sorted out by the Irish Episcopal Conference. Are we to infer from this a lack of political will to do so or simply a lack of interest in authentic liturgy?
I am not sure who was responsible for the first manifestation of POW. The second edition (1972) was the responsibility of Cathal Daly when Bishop of Ardagh and Clonmacnoise. The third (1993) edition is closely associated with Joe Duffy, Bishop of Clogher. Given the phenomenal gutting done by both of these gentlemen respectively on Longford and Monaghan cathedrals, you will understand my hesitation to underwrite anything associated with them that might be seen in the slightest way to legitimate their acts of cultural vandalism. Just look at St Macartan’s in Monaghan and at St. Mel’s in Longford!!
@brianq wrote:
Prax, if I’m reading you’re post correctly you’re insinuating that the church featured in the image you posted is a Catholic one and therefore an example of current thinking in liturgical reordering in the Catholic Church. Well, I can allay your fears and rehabilitate the principle of reordering in your mind at the same time by confirming that the church is in fact a Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran church in Fond du Lac, Wisonsin.
BQ
Brian!
Reassurance is sometimes worse than perplexity. If the church displayed earlier on is a Lutheran one in Westconsin, what are we to make of the recent re-reordering in Armagh that leaves the Altar -the central point of a church and of the liturgy – on a plane several steps below that on which stands the cathedra and the choir-stalls? Indeed, looking at it again, the cathedra is in fact two planes higher than the altar plane. Also, the siting of the ambo on a plane higher than the altar and behind it is also a bit unusual. Please do not get me wrong on this – I am prepared to admit that the re-rereordering is light years ahead of the tooth but perhaps not yet at a state of perfection!
@brianq wrote:
Prax, if I’m reading you’re post correctly you’re insinuating that the church featured in the image you posted is a Catholic one and therefore an example of current thinking in liturgical reordering in the Catholic Church. Well, I can allay your fears and rehabilitate the principle of reordering in your mind at the same time by confirming that the church is in fact a Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran church in Fond du Lac, Wisonsin.
BQ
Brian!
Reassurance is sometimes worse than perplexity. If the church displayed earlier on is a Lutheran one in Westconsin, what are we to make of the recent re-reordering in Armagh that leaves the Altar -the central point of a church and of the liturgy – on a plane several steps below that on which stands the cathedra and the choir-stalls? Indeed, looking at it again, the cathedra is in fact two planes higher than the altar plane. Also, the siting of the ambo on a plane higher than the altar and behind it is also a bit unusual. Please do not get me wrong on this – I am prepared to admit that the re-rereordering is light years ahead of the tooth but perhaps not yet at a state of perfection!
Re. post #1108
POW is an authentic Church document.
BQ
Brian, the Sunday Mass leaflet is an ‘authentic’ church document, but no one would say that it is an authoritative church document.
My question is: Do you think that POW is an ‘authoritative document’?
And if so, whose authority has it?On the question of the erection of the Cathedra in Armagh Cathedral, someone has pointed out to me the relevant text containing the rules on the height of a Cathedra and its relation to the height of the High Altar and the stalls of canons: not surprisingly, it was in J. O’Connell’s Church Building and Furnishing: The Church’s Way. As pointed out out, the Cathedra “is to be on a platform approached by three steps – so that it is higher than the canons’ stalls in the chancel, but not higher than the footpace of the High Altar”. Conveniently, he also gives the references for this rule which is found in the Cottectanea Sacrae Congregationis Rituum nn. 2049 (25) and 2231 (7). While other rules mentoned by O’COnnell have been explicitly abolished, the one concerning the height of the Cathedra in relation to the High Altar has not been explicitely abrogated.
I may seem churlish, but I also have to point out that the colour of the cloth on the cathedra (not to mention the other chairs) is wrong. The colour “red” is reserved for a Cardinal of the Holy Roman Church. “Green” is reserved for all other archbishops and bishops. This oversight is also remarkable when you notice the heraldic achievement inset in the floor before the Cathedra which correctly displays a “green” galero.
In contrast, if you look at the outlay of the sancturay in Cobh Cathedral, you will notice that all of the rules have been meticuously observed.
Of course, I accept that all of these are very fine points – but knowing them separates the men from the boys!!
To illustrate my point about the rules governing the height at which a Cathedra may be erected and its relation to the height of the High Altar, I am enclosing a photograph of the sanctuary of the Cathedral of St. André in Bordeaux. You will notice that the Cathedra is raised on a dias on three steps while the High Altar is raised on four higher steps. Also, the red colour indicates that the present Archbishop of Bordeaux is a Cardinal of the Holy Roman Church. The aquiline ambo is placed at the altar rail which is of fine 18th century wrought iron for which Bordeaux is famous.
Here is a little something that Brian Quinn might be interested in.
It outlines the principles of the liturgical reform of the Second Vatican Council by someone who was there at all its sessions and who exercised a very serious influence on the proceedings of the Council since he was a member of its doctrinal commission.
Looking at the floor in Armagh Cathedral I can’t help thinking that all those miles of barley twist and acres of celtic squiggle can’t be too easy on anyone with a delicate constitiution – it’s all too fussy for a liturgical setting. Just take a look at the black and white tiles on the floor of Bordeaux Cathedral and one is struck immediately by the dignity of its restraint.
If something fancy was wanted in Armagh a mosaic should have been put in.
All those tiles, no matter how expensive, just can’t lift the mind from thinking of an elegant water closet in an upmarket hotel.@Praxiteles wrote:
Here is a little something that Brian Quinn might be interested in.
It outlines the principles of the liturgical reform of the Second Vatican Council by someone who was there at all its sessions and who exercised a very serious influence on the proceedings of the Council since he was a member of its doctrinal commission.
Praxiteles, my dear lady, don’t waste your time. Brian is, unfortunately, completely brainwashed by the modernist litugical propaganda and will, like all the rest, ignore anything that might impinge on their given ‘orthodoxy’ even if it originates with our current Holy Father.
Jones et al in Maynooth and everything they touch sing from the same outdated hymn sheet. They have staked their whole careers and to recognise any other view now would negate their entire lives. True Catholic teaching holds no authority for them. The pity is that they seem like nice people but like all liberals they are totally illeberal in their attitudes to anyone who disagrees with them.:(I should not worry too much about them. For most, their “careers” are slowly but surely coming to a close and will be over and done with very soon.
The latest from the FOSCC.
Recent News and Events of the F.O.S.C.C
August 2006
FOSCC 2007 Calendar Now Available !!!
FOSCC has produced a beautiful 2007 Calendar with 12 stunning photographs of
St. Colman’s Cathedral, taken by well known Cork press photographer
Mr. Des Barry.The calendar retails for €5 and is a bargain at the price.
Copies are available from any member of the FOSCC committee or order one online via email from terrypender@foscc.com
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