reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches
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@THE_Chris wrote:
Let the FOSCC chaining to the alter rails begin 😎
So basicially, its been granted, with the one (major) clause that the permanent altar and cathedra must be dealt with seperatly. Am I reading that right?
Basically it has not been granted. The Inspector went for upholding the planning permission with conditions. Then it went to the Bord who voted 6 to 2 to refuse planning permission.
The_Chris seems to be indulging in wishful thinking and denigrating the FOSCC is a weak and pathetic ploy. His/her original contribution talked about entrenched positions. Well The_Chris seems firmly entrenched and like ,his friend Bishop Magee , is also unwilling to listen to the people of Cobh or even the civil planning authorites. Attack the argument not the people putting them forward.
In Cobh today there was much real joy, but no triumphalism, as those who love their Church realise that while they may have gone some way to saving their beloved Cathedral the rift between the people and the clergy now needs to be healed.
PS. The_Chris should know that it was not the FOSCC who were planning to chain themselves to the altar, it was the daily Mass goers who suggested such.
The-Chris,again, got it wrong. THe FOSCC did win their appeal with An Bord Pleanala and planning permission to wreck the interior of Cobh Cathedral has been REFUSED.
I may have contributed to The-Chris’s confusion. I only had time to post the Inspector’s Report. This was done by Mr Tom Rabbitte. It was rejected by the Bord which then issued its own DIRECTION and then made an ORDER for CObh Town Council to refuse the planning application simpliciter.
DO read all three elements. They are important and, I believe, set a flag for the interpretation of this section of the planning act. As an initial commenton the question of the weight to be given to “respecting liturgical requirements”, I would bring your attention to the fact that it is substantialy that outlined by the lovely Deborah Spence of Arthur Cox and Co. on behalf of the FOSCC in their appeal lodged with An Board Pleannala last September. I think that the good lady deserves some kudos for that insight – an perhaps even a feather in her hat!!!!!
@LeoWong wrote:
Let us hope that the Bishop accepts this gracefully and reconciles with his parishioners.
And so say all of us.
Well done to all concerned you have been part of one of the biggest conservation results in a number of years; I hope that this ruling will send out a message that important architectural fabric is off limits for the ‘reorganisation’ of churches and cathedrals as well as privately held property.
It is good to see that An Bord has yet again proved its independence and clear thinking
Yes indeed. I absolutely agree with Thomond. The very best congratulations are in order for the FOSCC who have done trojan work in the face all sorts of mean and base-bred tricks to stifle the voice of the ordinary citizen whne they had something important to say.
This morning’s newspapers report that Fr. Jim Killeen, the Chris-ologos public relations officer for the diocese of Cloyne, is studying the 90 page Rabbitte Report before deciding what hnext to do. Perhaps he did not notice that the Rabbit Report has been binned in its totality and, hence, there is little or no need for the Cloyne diocesan authorities to stretch their ample brains on it. Just concentrate on on the single page Order made by An Bord Pleannala, if that is not too taxing or tiring, and they should know what they have to do fairly fast. Indeed, most of the luminaries involved in recommending Prof. O’Neill’s mad-hatter scheme should simply resign – starting with the over qualified members of the Historic Church Commission of the diocese of Cloyne who obviously cannot be trusted to safeguard the interests on one of the most important monuments in the country. Even the good Bishop, who staked so much on bulldozing his way over his own flock, should also consider sending in a little letter to BXVI.
Definitely time to move on as has been said above
I think the article below captures the mood very well
Board bars alterations to Cobh cathedral
From:ireland.com
Saturday, 3rd June, 2006An Bord Pleanála has refused planning permission for extensive alterations to the interior of St Colman’s Cathedral in Cobh, Co Cork, because they would “adversely affect the character . . . of a protected structure of national importance”.
The board unanimously rejected a recommendation by the planning inspector who dealt with the appeal that the liturgical changes should be allowed, saying it disagreed with his interpretation of its role in determining such applications.
By a majority of six votes to two, the board went on to overturn Cobh town council’s decision to approve plans by the cathedral trustees to carry out a re-ordering of its interior to meet the liturgical requirements of the Second Vatican Council.
One of the board members, Mary Bryan, absented herself because the Irish Georgian Society – of which she was formerly a senior official – was one of the appellants. Other appellants included An Taisce and the heritage division of the Department of the Environment.
Welcoming the board’s ruling yesterday as a “landmark decision in protecting Ireland’s architectural heritage”, a spokesman for An Taisce said it laid down a “significant marker for any future proposals for alterations to churches of all denominations”.
The proposed “re-ordering” of the interior of St Colman’s would have involved extending the sanctuary area into the nave of the cathedral, removing and partially relocating the existing altar rails, and creating a permanent altar in the extended sanctuary.
In its decision, An Bord Pleanála described St Colman’s Cathedral as “a most important example of 19th-century Gothic Revival architecture by the architects Pugin and Ashlin, which has retained the integrity of its original architectural treatment”.
The board said the building “is of the finest quality, both in its exterior and interior” and the proposed alterations would “adversely affect” its character and would, therefore, be “contrary to the proper planning and sustainable development of the area”.
In deciding not to accept the recommendation of senior planning inspector Tom Rabbette, the board disagreed with his interpretation of its powers under the 2000 Planning Act to decide on planning appeals involving protected structures which are used as a places of worship.
“The board considered that the obligation placed on it to respect liturgical requirements must be interpreted in the context of its other duties, as defined in the Act, including in respect of protection of the architectural heritage,” it said in its ruling.
Niall O’Connor in Cork adds: Adrian O’Donovan of the Friends of St Colman’s Cathedral group told The Irish Times that his group was pleased that An Bord Pleanála had taken its decision. “We are relieved and pleased, but this is not a day for triumphalism – it is a sad day because it should never have come to this. No one has won today – it is a sad day for the church when people must appeal to the civil authorities,” he said.
Cllr Stella Meade, mayor of Cobh, said that she was pleased by the board’s decision.
A statement from Bishop John Magee said: “The Cloyne Diocesan authorities have noted the decision by An Bord Pleanála . . . A detailed study of the decision will now be made by the Diocesan authorities and their professional advisers, before deciding on the next course of action.”
Well, well….Stella Meade, the Mayor of Cobh, is pleased with An Bord Pleannala’s decision. How else could she be. AT this point she has no choice in the matter except to be pleased.
We note that she was not too helpful last August in facilitating a motion of the counsellors of Cobh Urban Council to hold a special meeting to discuss the application to wreck the interior of Cobh Cathedral and, I would point to the minutes of the September minutes of the Council where her conservationist track record in relation to the Cathedral is publicly minuted. She might also consider resigning – before the none too happy Cobh electorate deal with her at the next local election. This lady’s democratic credentials waere also available for all to see at the March 2006 meeting of the Cobh Urban Council when she vindictively EXPELLED two members of the FOSCC form visitors gallery by invoking a procedural measure NEVER perviously used in the COuncil Chamber.
Writing from a distance, it would seem that mass resignations would be similar to disbanding the Iraqi army after the fall of Saddam Hussein. There are so many in positions that are required to run the Church (don’t know if the Mayor’s resigning would affect anything). Better to reconcile and transition. How much better for everyone (including us in the USA) if the Bishop saw the light and said something to the effect that he now knows that the faithful were right in this matter (c.f. Newman’s “On Consulting the Faithful”) . How much better if FOSCC and the Bishop came to together to show that the fight was not against the Bishop personally, but against a misguided plan proposed by the Bishop. If the Bishop is the man The-Chris knows, this coming together should be likely, for I am certain (even looking on from Albany NY) that FOSCC would be happy to make peace. The-Chris, am I right about the Bishop?
A. TEPE (1884-1885)
The Church of the Asumption of Our Lady into Heaven (Onze Lieve Vrouwe ten Hemelopneming) at HOUTEN in the archdiocese of Utrecht (A. Tepe, 1884-1885)
A new Catholic church was built in Houten by A. Tepe 1884-1885. It’s a three-aisled cruciform basilica in the neo-Gothic style. This is the only instance when Tepe used a crossing-tower for one of his designs. Also the Romanesque details, which are especially present in the clerestorey, make this an exceptional design in Tepe’s career.
Charles Guilfoyle DORAN (1835-1909)
Someone who read of the recent Bord Pleanala decision sent me the link which I attach below. It is a short outline of the biography of Charles G. Doran who was the clerk of works for the building of St. Colman’s Cathedral in Cobh. The finest quality craftsmanship both of the interior and exterior of the building is in no small part due to Doran who was very much a hands -on -man and most exigent with all craftsmen working on the Cathedral project. Although several contract suppliers complained to a succession of Bishops about his over demanding standards, Doran always had the complete support of the architect ,G.C. Ashlin, who relied on him completely. This article is a valuable contribution to the biography (which still needs writing) of this important figure of 19th. Cobh:
http://dunlavin.blogspot.com/2006/06/charles-guilfoyle-doran-du_114935465372819584.htmlThe latest from Cobh:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0606/6news.htmlThe same old pea rattling around the same old pot
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0606/news1pm.htmlLocal reactions
Readers of this thread might be interested in exploring some of the new thinking about church architecture and reordering of older churches going on in the United States. Two leading architects are Duncan Stroik and, of course, Thomas Gordon Smith. A third is Henry Hardinge Menzies, who recently worked on Bridgeport Cathedral. Details on Menzies’ work on his website: see http://www.hmenzies.com
I would recommend reading his article on recovering a sense of the sacred, published in the “Homiletic and Pastoral Review”: see this link: http://www.hmenzies.com/articles_whathappened.htmlA question that has arisen in recent times in the US is that of interventions in churches built in the stark and bare styles common in the 60s and 70s. These occur especially when parishes want to give a sense of the sacred to churches which originally resembled gymnasia and haybarns. Henry Hardinge Menzies has devoted considerable thought to this question, which he terms “salvaging renovations”. See his interesting article on Church renovations in Homiletic and Pastoral Review: http://www.hmenzies.com/articles_renovations.html
This is an important theme which should hopefully provoke some debate among Irish church architects.
Any thoughts?A new cathedral is currently being built in Oakland, California. Various projects were proposed but the winning one is by San Francisco architect Craig Hartman. The proposed cathedral, it appears, will resemble a 120 ft high woven wooden basket, wrapped in opaque glass. In daylight the glass is a veil, shrouding what’s within; but at night, light seeps out through the basket and the veil, glowing for all to see
Here is the full description:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/05/22/BAGU0CSU631.DTL
Any comments?The Adoremus bulletin has devoted numerous articles to church architecture, in an effort to promote more traditional styles in keeping with the genuine spirit of the liturgy. Some of the articles offer a critique of “modernist” architecture, while others deal with the principles which should inspire sacred art and architecture. A convenient list with links is available here:
http://www.adoremus.org/ArchArticles.htmlAn interesting project for an Irish location, drawn up by a graduate of Thomas Gordon Smith’s school, is Divine Mercy Chapel in Islandeady, Co. Mayo. For details, see:
http://www.adoremus.org/0404HaighChapel.htmlBy the way, Domiane Forte, another graduate of the Notre Dame school of architecture had submitted a project for the new Oakland Cathedral. To say the least, it is quite different from the project eventually adopted. For details, follow this link: http://www.adoremus.org/0404DForte.html
Here it is:
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