reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches
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I sincerely hope that no news today is not necessarily bad news… Does anyone know what the state of play with the ABP announcement is? My nerves are fraying!
Im not going to get into this debate as both sides are firmly entrenched. But I will say this.
I am a bit disappointed in how the media and everyone on here are labelling John Magee as some form of mad heretic with a death sentence for us all. He’s been portrayed in a terrible way by the media and it seems there is a massive hate campaign against him by all.
I can say with hand on heart, knowing him personally, that is is the nicest man anyone could ever hope to meet. He is the most caring person I know. Very quiet and a bit shy, but get to know him and he is a great laugh, and the kindest man you could ever know.
Unfortunately, the media never acknowledge this, and everyones opinion of him is swayed by that.
He is now scared to leave his house because of the viscousness of this campaign against him. He used to take walks all over Cobh island. He cant risk it anymore. Would you go out on your own having received DEATH THREATS though the mail?
You read that right.
Please, if you want to have a campaign against the reordering then thats fine by me – its your opinion, but dont resort to personal attacks against John Magee. He doesnt deserve that.
It is an utter disgrace that anyone could issue a death threat against the bishop and whoever has done such a thing should feel abject shame.
But I would also pay tribute to those who have organised the true campaign, the organisers of the FOSCC. For them this has always be an arguement as to the prudence of the current reordering plans. I would never justify the crazed reaction of a very small minority, but a large measure of the ill will produced by this saga has originated in the less than plain dealings of the chancery as documented thoroughly elsewhere.
For my own part I do not doubt the right of the bishop to do as he pleases with the church within the law of the church and of the land, but I do question the merit on the grounds of architecture and liturgy.
One of the fruits of the Second Vatican Council is that, if ever the laity were passive and credulous, now we have members of the church who fully, actively and consciously live their faith and ask, in charity and love, for their voices to be heard on prudential questions by those who have been chosen to shepherd them.
@THE_Chris wrote:
Im not going to get into this debate as both sides are firmly entrenched. But I will say this.
I am a bit disappointed in how the media and everyone on here are labelling John Magee as some form of mad heretic with a death sentence for us all. He’s been portrayed in a terrible way by the media and it seems there is a massive hate campaign against him by all.
I can say with hand on heart, knowing him personally, that is is the nicest man anyone could ever hope to meet. He is the most caring person I know. Very quiet and a bit shy, but get to know him and he is a great laugh, and the kindest man you could ever know.
Unfortunately, the media never acknowledge this, and everyones opinion of him is swayed by that.
He is now scared to leave his house because of the viscousness of this campaign against him. He used to take walks all over Cobh island. He cant risk it anymore. Would you go out on your own having received DEATH THREATS though the mail?
You read that right.
Please, if you want to have a campaign against the reordering then thats fine by me – its your opinion, but dont resort to personal attacks against John Magee. He doesnt deserve that.
If you will take the time to read back over this thread you will see that the campaign against the reordering is just that. It is in no way a personal attack on Bishop Magee, it never was and never will be. If you would take the time to get to know the people involved in the Friends of St. Colman’s who are running the campaign you will learn that they are some of the most loyal parishioner Bishop John has.
One of the most frustrating things about this whole affaire is the notion that this is in some way a personal attack on the bishop or the Church.
Regarding the death threat to the Bishop, of which I have heard, to the best of my knowledge it has been sent on to the Gardai and they are investigating. They have never approached the Friends about this as they know that it is nothing to do with them.
Please do enter the debate, but also please get your facts right. If Bishop John has been criticised on this thread it is in connection with the present re-ordering plans which are opposed by over 90% of his flock. If he chooses to ignore this fact then you cannot blame the people for getting angry.
If he only knew that the Friends are in fact a safety valve in Cobh as the anger that is there is currently mooted by the fact that the Friends are running the campaign and refuse to countenance any personal attack on the bishop and have never stooped to personal attack.Just read The-Chris contribution. I think he has missed the point.
While this thread certainly could have pointed out a number of examples of Bishop Magee’s paucity with the truth and his lack of transparency in dealing with the attempt being made to wreck the interior of Cobh Cathedral, it has not done so (cf. the documentation contained in the book “Conserving Cobh Cathedral”). Instead, it has concentrated on conservation issues, art history, the neo-gothic revival, and on various comparative studies within the neo-gothic revival movement. There is no mention of a Magee in Didron, for example.
Not knowing John Magee as well as The -Chris, I would be reluctant to say that his hesitation to venture out amongst his own flock can be reduced to a single factor. It would perhaps be best for the bishop to explain that himself
As for those lucky enough to be admitted to his presence, we leave it with them to savour the scintillating brilliance of the bishop’s wit.
@THE_Chris wrote:
Im not going to get into this debate as both sides are firmly entrenched. But I will say this.
I am a bit disappointed in how the media and everyone on here are labelling John Magee as some form of mad heretic with a death sentence for us all. He’s been portrayed in a terrible way by the media and it seems there is a massive hate campaign against him by all.
I can say with hand on heart, knowing him personally, that is is the nicest man anyone could ever hope to meet. He is the most caring person I know. Very quiet and a bit shy, but get to know him and he is a great laugh, and the kindest man you could ever know.
Unfortunately, the media never acknowledge this, and everyones opinion of him is swayed by that.
He is now scared to leave his house because of the viscousness of this campaign against him. He used to take walks all over Cobh island. He cant risk it anymore. Would you go out on your own having received DEATH THREATS though the mail?
You read that right.
Please, if you want to have a campaign against the reordering then thats fine by me – its your opinion, but dont resort to personal attacks against John Magee. He doesnt deserve that.
I am not part of the campaign, but have been following the events with interest. Kind man and wit though he may be, Bishop Magee has in this instance shown himself to be a poor pastor and a worse catechist. How does one say this in the nicest possible way? How would someone who knows him personally tell him?
In relation ot the neo-gothic revival in Holland we have already seen some examples of the work of Carl Weber which drew mainly on the romano-gothic of the Rhineland for its inspiration.
Here we have an example of the work of P. Cuypers, the other great architect of the Dutcj neo-gothic revival. Unlike Weber, his inspiration was French and precisely in the school of Viellot-le-Duc, A.N. Didron and the French 13th. century – the same influences at work on E.W Pugin, JJ. McCarthy and G.C. Ashlin. It is interesting to see how the same inspirational sources were worked out by each of these architects and given very distinctive personal character.
P.J.H. Cuypers (1827-1921)
Ouderkerk aan de Amstel (North Holland), The Church of St. Urban: 1865-1867
Three-aisled cruciform church, the transept extending the width of the nave. Tower on most western side of the northern aisle.
P.J.H. CUYPERS
Onze Lieve Vrouwe Onbevlekt Ontvangen or Posthoornkerk , Amsterdam, 1860-1863 & 1887-1889
This neo-Gothic church by Cuypers shows several late Romanesque influences. Although officially called the Church of the Immaculate Conception of Our Lady, it is popularly known as the Posthoornkerk or Posthorn Church, The church was built in two stages: the first 1860 – 1863 which saw the building of the choir, transept and nave; the facade was added in 1887- 1889. Because it is almost completely surrounded by houses, Cuypers designed the church taller than normal. The plain exterior belies the richness of decoration of the interior. The church was abandoned in 1963, and despite listing, only barely esacped demolition. It is now a concert hall.
Another important architect of the Dutch neo Gothic revival is Wilhelm Victor Alfred Tepe.
He was born in Amsterdam in November 1840 and studied architecture at the Bauakadamie in Berlin 1861-l 1864 but was dissatisfied with its Classicism. Tepe devoted much of his time tot he study of of Viollet-le-Duc. and the French neo-Gothic movement which included Lassus and Didron. From 1865 to 1867 Tepe worked under Vincenz Statz, one of Germany’s leading neo-Gothic architects. Tepe was involved with Statz in Cologne on the completion of the cathedral.In 1867 Tepe returned to Amsterdam, where he worked for an architect Ouderterp moving to Utrecht in 1872 where he became one of the leading members of the St. Bernulphusgilde (‘Guild of St. Bernulphus’), a group of Catholic clergy and artists striving to restore national traditions and craftmanship in religious art and architecture. The guild was a dominant influence in the archdiocese of Utrecht. Influences from medieval indigenous styles were especially encouraged, as was the use of indigenous materials, especially brick. Most of Tepe’s oeuvre is to be found in the archdiocese of Utrecht. From 1871 to 1905 Tepe built around 70 churches, executed in brick with very little natural stone, and taking the late-Gothic 15th- and 16th-centuries’ styles of the Lower Rhine and Westphalia as his majopr influence. The St. Bernulphus Guild saw to the sumptous decoration of the interiorrs.
In 1905 Tepe moved to Germany, where he designed several more churches. He died in Düsseldorf in 1920,Church St. Willibrordus, Utrecht 1876-1877
The church has undergone an important restoration which was brought to completion in 2005. It would useful for public bodies in Ireland such as the Heritage COuncil and the architectural “experts” in the Department of the Environment to take a close look at this restoration. They might learn something from it.
The link below gives access to an interesting article by Auke van der Woud on the Dutch neo-Gothic reviva and may be of interest to readers:
http://www.archis.org/plain/object.php?object=811&year=&num=
Here is a potted biography of Cuypers.
A. TEPE (1881-1883)
St. Francis Xavier or De Krijtberg in Amsterdam
This Jesuit church was built to replace an earlier one that had been fronted by a private house – much like Adam and Eve’s in Dublin – and was begun in 1881 The site for the new church posed serious spacial difficulties. Tepe however managed to construct a rather large church, especially when compared to the St. Willibrordus in Utrecht, built a few years earlier under similar space limitations.
Because only the front would be directly visible Tepe gave the church a monumental facade with octagonal towers at the sides of it, instead of his usual square tower. Instead of a true transept there’s a pseudo-transept with shallow arms, and the choir is flanked by diagonally positioned chapels. In the interior optimal use of space was made by limiting the width of the side-aisles, thus creating more space for the central aisle. A gallery above the side-aisles provided even more space.
De Krijtberg is one of the highlights in Tepe’s career. The interior was largely furnished by Mengelberg in Utrecht and has survived almost intact..
In the 1970 the church was threathened with demolition, but thankfully it was restored instead. This restoration started in 1979 and was completed in 2001.
Re:St. Francis Xavier or De Krijtberg in Amsterdam
I’ve heard that the Jesuits in Amsterdam are nowadays relatively conservative and offer reverent liturgies. The fact that this church is in tact would tend to bear that out. The High Altar remains appropriately adorned; the interiors look stunning. Any chance of posting the pictures at a higher resolution?
Keeping fingers crossed for tomorrow, should the announcement finally be made. Anyone running a sweepstake on whether we’ll hear anything?
Praxiteles wrote:Re n. 98: I am glad you raised the case of Limerick which has undergone a very recent restoration and “make over” of the interior, especially of the sancturay.I was just interested if you have any opinion on the new seating in being placed in cathedrals such as Limerick and Belfast recently. The origional seating often appears unsettled in the origional cathedral environment.(speaking genrally). I have often heard it said that due to budget over runs the origional seating was often “skimped” on to keep costs down as they were the last fixtures to be put in place. This often resulted in plane , simple, out of place pews.
Re seating in Limerick and Belfast cathedrals, I have to confess that I have been in them recently and have not seen the new seating arranhgements. You may have noticed from some of the earlier postings that the current “fad” among the so called liturgists is moveable seating – usually stacked plasticated things, or someting more recogniseably “chair” of “stool” as used by Richard Hurley.
I suppose taht it is possible that seating might have been skimped upon in the building of Irish churches but that would not be true in the case of some of the important buildings. The seating in CObh Cathedral, for instance, was designed by Ashlin and executed to a level consonant with the rest of the building. Unfortunately, this feature of the Cathedral is also under attack: several of the benches have been removed fromn their original position and dumped in the Lady Chapel where they are certainly in the process of impacing on the ornamental mosaic floor – which was never intended to have seating. This is supposed to be a “cute” solution thinking that nobody would notice. I am still waiting to see how it will take the COrk COunty Conservation Officer to have them removed before the floor is wrecked.
The Pro-Cathedral in Dublin also has a fine set of benches.
Great news from Cobh. The Friends have won they appeal to An Bord Pleanala. Congratulation to them and the Irish Georgian Society and An Taisce Cork.
Here we are then, the Bord Pleanala Report on Cobh Cathedral.
Let the FOSCC chaining to the alter rails begin 😎
So basicially, its been granted, with the one (major) clause that the permanent altar and cathedra must be dealt with seperatly. Am I reading that right?
No it has not been granted; a planning report has been written which must now go before the Bord to make a formal decision and the members of the board will have regard to the report in conjunction with all the information on the file.
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