reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches
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@Praxiteles wrote:
Is ONQ in some way suggesting that the Irish Church is an exemplar?
The Irish church practice of the liturgy and ceremony is what I referred to, not the Irish Church in terms of the issues its dealing with regarding child sex abuse.
As far as we can tell, the entire Catholic Church is riddled with pedos.
Admittedly they may be only 10% of the population, but its an influential 10%.Since I brought up this point of the relative irrelevance of altar rails when compared with the abuse within the church, what’s your point?
ONQ.
@johnglas wrote:
onq: I just became so frustrated reading your responses to Praxiteles (which never seemed to rise above the literalist reposte of the girls’ upper Fourth) that I have to respond in turn.
As gunter says, there is an unanswerable case for the replacement of removed altar rails in historic (i.e. pre-Vat II) churches. Whether a contemporary church should or should not have a rail is a matter of liturgical taste, but that the sanctuary should be separate and distinct is not an issue. True, you don’t need a church for worship, but 1700 years of tradition cannot be lightly set aside. (All the churches of the Reformation still required some places of assembly, which oddly enough over the years have come to look very like churches – sort of odd, that.)
The ultimate in separation between the nave (earth) and sanctuary (heaven) is the iconostasis of the Orthodox tradition – perhaps they could all be demolished and burnt in the interests of suppressing ‘vanity’. As for equating special clothes (vestments?) and ‘setting oneself apart’ (as one having a special function) with paganism, well that is pat on the head time.The problem with many contemporary and reordered churches is that they are simply not numinous enough, they are not ‘set apart’, they are not ‘special’. I have strong reservations about the architectural form of Stroik, but I have none about his intentions.
Intellectual superiority comes in many forms, but none so riddled with hubris as the one that fails to see the necessity for irreverence in dealing with hidebound religion, or doubt to test faith.
Far too many people the world over believe in the visual bullshit presented in Catholic Churches.
Most of this represents pivotal moments in time, iconic episodes, caricatures of the person or event being portrayed – and impossible idealised portrayal of smelly humans, who are after all, only the current meeting place where the fallen angel meets the rising ape.
Its almost enough to make you go Muslim.
But to listen to the endless quotes here which are nothing more than some humans’ views about how to conduct or regulate a strand of human behaviour being presented as if they are God’s word – saddo, saddo, saddo.
ONQ.
I am afraid that the anti-nomian attitude exhibited above towards the normative practice of Catholic worship could indeed be seen as another example of the anti-nomianism that has engendered disaster in ecclesiastical administration and governance in Ireland.
A Rechtsgesellschaft presupposes a prior disposition to play according to rules in all areas of society. Insisting on that play in one area and not in another is incoherent. It is not possibe consistently to advocate chaos in worship by disregarding the rules which govern it and at the same time insist on the application of the rules of ecclesiastical government and administration.
@onq wrote:
Intellectual superiority comes in many forms, but none so riddled with hubris as the one that fails to see the necessity for irreverence in dealing with hidebound religion, or doubt to test faith.
Far too many people the world over believe in the visual bullshit presented in Catholic Churches.
Most of this represents pivotal moments in time, iconic episodes, caricatures of the person or event being portrayed – and impossible idealised portrayal of smelly humans, who are after all, only the current meeting place where the fallen angel meets the rising ape.
Its almost enough to make you go Muslim.
But to listen to the endless quotes here which are nothing more than some humans’ views about how to conduct or regulate a strand of human behaviour being presented as if they are God’s word – saddo, saddo, saddo.
ONQ.
I do not think that Mircea Eliade would quite go along with this and the Muslims might think twice about letting in the chaotic. I think that you will probably find that Islam is much more detailed and demanding in the observance of its religious code.
Onq:
on a small point: doubt is a concomitant of faith – and there is no escaping that. Why not try the writings of the Spanish mystics, Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross, or a much more modern item, the autobiography of St. Thérèse de l’Enfant Jésus e da la Sainte Face. I think you will find that these people knew what they were talking about when it come to doubt.
Most of this represents pivotal moments in time, iconic episodes, caricatures of the person or event being portrayed – and impossible idealised portrayal of smelly humans, who are after all, only the current meeting place where the fallen angel meets the rising ape.
This, I have to say, is a dissapointingly pessimistic outlook on life and one which is, ultimately, despairingly Manichaean.
Far too many people the world over believe in the visual bullshit presented in Catholic Churches.
As, for example, the Missionaries of Charity in the slums of Calcutta?
Since you seem to be veering towards scholarship please confirm where the Last Supper was held and who was present.
Is there any reason not to accept the testimony of a least 3 contemporary accounts which have been transmitted? Paradosis is a a legitimate source.
The Decree of the Council of trent on Art:
The decree was approved in the 25th. and final session of Council on 4 December 1563 held in Santa Maria Maggiore in Trent:
ON THE INVOCATION, VENERATION, AND RELICS, OF SAlNTS, AND ON SACRED IMAGES.
The holy Synod enjoins on all bishops, and others who sustain the office and charge of teaching, that, agreeably to the usage of the Catholic and Apostolic Church, received from the primitive times of the Christian religion, and agreeably to the consent of the holy Fathers, and to the decrees of sacred Councils, they especially instruct the faithful diligently concerning the intercession and invocation of saints; the honour (paid) to [Page 234] relics; and the legitimate use of images: teaching them, that the saints, who reign together with Christ, offer up their own prayers to God for men; that it is good and useful suppliantly to invoke them, and to have recourse to their prayers, aid, (and) help for obtaining benefits from God, through His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, who is our alone Redeemer and Saviour; but that they think impiously, who deny that the saints, who enjoy eternal happiness in heaven, are to be invocated; or who assert either that they do not pray for men; or, that the invocation of them to pray for each of us even in particular, is idolatry; or, that it is repugnant to the word of God; and is opposed to the honour of the one mediator of God and men, Christ Jesus; or, that it is foolish to supplicate, vocally, or mentally, those who reign in heaven. Also, that the holy bodies of holy martyrs, and of others now living with Christ,-which bodies were the living members of Christ, and the temple of the Holy Ghost, and which are by Him to be raised unto eternal life, and to be glorified,–are to be venerated by the faithful; through which (bodies) many benefits are bestowed by God on men; so that they who affirm that veneration and honour are not due to the relics of saints; or, that these, and other sacred monuments, are uselessly honoured by the faithful; and that the places dedicated to the memories of the saints are in vain visited with the view of obtaining their aid; are wholly to be condemned, as the Church has already long since condemned, and now also condemns them.
Moreover, that the images of Christ, of the Virgin Mother of God, and of the other saints, are to be had and retained particularly in temples, and that due honour and veneration are to be given them; not that any divinity, or virtue, is believed to be in them, on account of which they are to be worshipped; or that anything is to be asked of them; or, that trust is to be reposed in images, as was of old done by the Gentiles who placed [Page 235] their hope in idols; but because the honour which is shown them is referred to the prototypes which those images represent; in such wise that by the images which we kiss, and before which we uncover the head, and prostrate ourselves, we adore Christ; and we venerate the saints, whose similitude they bear: as, by the decrees of Councils, and especially of the second Synod of Nicaea, has been defined against the opponents of images.
And the bishops shall carefully teach this,-that, by means of the histories of the mysteries of our Redemption, portrayed by paintings or other representations, the people is instructed, and confirmed in (the habit of) remembering, and continually revolving in mind the articles of faith; as also that great profit is derived from all sacred images, not only because the people are thereby admonished of the benefits and gifts bestowed upon them by Christ, but also because the miracles which God has performed by means of the saints, and their salutary examples, are set before the eyes of the faithful; that so they may give God thanks for those things; may order their own lives and manners in imitation of the saints; and may be excited to adore and love God, and to cultivate piety. But if any one shall teach, or entertain sentiments, contrary to these decrees; let him be anathema.
88
And if any abuses have crept in amongst these holy and salutary observances, the holy Synod ardently desires that they be utterly abolished; in such wise that no images, (suggestive) of false doctrine, and furnishing occasion of dangerous error to the uneducated, be set up. And if at times, when expedient for the unlettered people; it happen that the facts and narratives of sacred Scripture are portrayed and represented; the people shall be taught, that not thereby is the Divinity represented, as though it could be seen by the eyes of the body, or be portrayed by colours or figures.
Moreover, in the invocation of saints, the veneration of relics, and the sacred use of images, every superstition shall be removed, all filthy lucre be abolished; finally, all lasciviousness be [Page 236] avoided; in such wise that figures shall not be painted or adorned with a beauty exciting to lust; nor the celebration of the saints, and the visitation of relics be by any perverted into revellings and drunkenness; as if festivals are celebrated to the honour of the saints by luxury and wantonness.
In fine, let so great care and diligence be used herein by bishops, as that there be nothing seen that is disorderly, or that is unbecomingly or confusedly arranged, nothing that is profane, nothing indecorous, seeing that holiness becometh the house of God.
And that these things may be the more faithfully observed, the holy Synod ordains, that no one be allowed to place, or cause to be placed, any unusual image, in any place, or church, howsoever exempted, except that image have been approved of by the bishop: also, that no new miracles are to be acknowledged, or new relics recognised, unless the said bishop has taken cognizance and approved thereof; who, as soon as he has obtained some certain information in regard to these matters, shall, after having taken the advice of theologians, and of other pious men, act therein as he shall judge to be consonant with truth and piety. But if any doubtful, or difficult abuse has to be extirpated; or, in fine, if any more grave question shall arise touching these matters, the bishop, before deciding the controversy, shall await the sentence of the metropolitan and of the bishops of the province, in a provincial Council; yet so, that nothing new, or that previously has not been usual in the Church, shall be resolved on, without having first consulted the most holy Roman Pontiff.@Praxiteles wrote:
The Sacred Heart Church, The Cresent Limerick
Sad to see this church now , stripped bare , lying empty and closed up
@Praxiteles wrote:
St John’s Cathedral, Limerick
The original interior:
A missed oppertunity to restore this beautiful Cathedral, already many problems have developed following the botch job of 2002.
Santa Maria Maggiore, Trent
Built by the Prince Bishop Bernardo Clesio between 1520 and 1524. It was completed by the Prince Bishop Cristoforo Madruzzo in 1539 with the addition of the Annunciation Portal.
Wondering if anyone can identify this photograph which was taken on 25 June 1910 and is titled Mr. Hodkinson, Horsewood?
Probably a mis-spelling, there’s a Horeswood village in County Wexford very near Dunbrody Abbey, has a church, could be it
@Praxiteles wrote:
Onq:
on a small point: doubt is a concomitant of faith – and there is no escaping that. Why not try the writings of the Spanish mystics, Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross, or a much more modern item, the autobiography of St. Thérèse de l’Enfant Jésus e da la Sainte Face. I think you will find that these people knew what they were talking about when it come to doubt.
Assurances of surety when it comes to doubting?
(chuckle)
Jesuit-trained, are you?
ONQ.
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