reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches
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@johnglas wrote:
You keep hoping this was not arson, but – even if it wasn’t – can the diocese be uncensuerd because of what appears to have been criminal neglect of even elementary precautions (e.g. a smoke alarm, for God’s sake – literally!)? Where were An Taisce and the Heritage Dept? Did nobody in Longford even care about this building?
This building like so many of the finer ecclesiastical buildings have been inherited from an age where building materials were different, fire seperation an alien concept and finishes untreated with fire retardant. You can’t apply modern building principles to old buildings outside state control.
This put simply is a very tragic accident; wait and see the locals will rally around the County’s most loved building and the Cathedral will be restored to its former glory; even possibly restored to its pre V2 condition.
Amen (as it were) to all that! Wasn’t meaning to cast aspersions (much), but someone has to take the rap and it’s not all down merely to former building techniques. Let’s, however, wait and see.
Incidentally, haven’t all you ‘non-believers’ heard of the power of myth? Even if it’s all just a big parable, it sure as Hell (sic) beats a belief in Tescopolis.St Peter and Paul’s Church, Cork City
Some details of the stencil work on the ceilings of the chancel and the lateral chapels.
This work may have been carried out by Hodgkinson and post dates 1866.
@Fearg wrote:
Great photos – those rads behind the angels have to go though, no matter what happens!
Do you have any “behind the scenes” pics e.g of the crypt, inside the bell tower etc?
heres the entrance to the crypt, you can see right through to the cathedral from there now…………….and a doorway on the second floor.
These photos are from our archive and show St. Mels Cathedral in 1925 while it was being Decorated by J. Hodkinson & Sons Ecclesiastical Decorators , Limerick , under the management of Louis Hodkinson. It had been previously Decorated by Louis’s father , James , in 1886. On both these occassions the Cathedral was richly decorated with stenciled designs and gold leaf work, all of which had been painted over in later years. Some of this work can be seen in the interior photo below , on the ceiling, and also in previous photos of the sanctuary, pre vatican 2, posted earlier.
REPOSTED PHOTOS as previous were not that clear.Terrific Stuff James1852… My goodness look at the gap distance between the planks on the scaffolding up top..no safe-pass course’s back in 1925 then!
Ties & overalls…Brilliant…Of the twelve pictured here, I wonder would any have been employed locally to help?
@james1852 wrote:
These photos are from our archive and show St. Mels Cathedral in 1925 while it was being Decorated by J. Hodkinson & Sons Ecclesiastical Decorators , Limerick , under the management of Louis Hodkinson. It had been previously Decorated by Louis’s father , James , in 1886. On both these occassions the Cathedral was richly decorated with stenciled designs and gold leaf work, all of which had been painted over in later years. Some of this work can be seen in the interior photo below , on the ceiling, and also in previous photos of the sanctuary, pre vatican 2, posted earlier.
excellent photos.
@Praxiteles wrote:
St Peter and Paul’s Church, Cork City
Some details of the stencil work on the ceilings of the chancel and the lateral chapels.
This work may have been carried out by Hodgkinson and post dates 1866.
Correct Praxiteles, this work was carried out in by James Hodkinson in 1862 .In 2 years time it will 150 years since these ceilings were decorated and they are still in excellant condition although not as bright as when they were originally done.
Longford Cathedral
The photographs posted by James1852 are extremely valuable for all sorts of reasons – inclusing illusrating the kind of fiddling that has gone on with this building.
Here is a photograph of the main door as it was in 2006. Note that someone has inserted a fussy piece of stained glass in the upper part of the door panels. Compare this piece of rubbish with the dignified timber panels behind the group of artists taken on the steps of teh Cathedral in 1925. If it has not been burned, then in the forthcoming restoration, this piece of nonsense will have to go.
@apelles wrote:
Terrific Stuff James1852… My goodness look at the gap distance between the planks on the scaffolding up top..no safe-pass course’s back in 1925 then!
Ties & overalls…Brilliant…Of the twelve pictured here, I wonder would any have been employed locally to help?
Yes, there were always some local men employed on each job, although most of the craftsmen travelled from Limerick. All the men generally stayed until the work was completed as the working week was six days back then.We have references of them travelling by horse-drawn coaches , and in earlier times they traveled by Bianconi’s Coaches in 1859 to the decorate the twin Churches in Wexford.
Also it is not so long ago since gaps were left between the planks to spare the amount used, I can remember being on such scaffold in the late 70s, early 80s and clambering up the bars to reach the top 50 or 60 feet up.
All employees of the firm wore shirts and ties right up to the 70s partly out of respect for the buildings they were working in.@Praxiteles wrote:
Longford Cathedral
The photographs posted by James1852 are extremely valuable for all sorts of reasons – inclusing illusrating the kind of fiddling that has gone on with this building.
Here is a photograph of the main door as it was in 2006. Note that someone has inserted a fussy piece of stained glass in the upper part of the door panels. Compare this piece of rubbish with the dignified timber panels behind the group of artists taken on the steps of teh Cathedral in 1925. If it has not been burned, then in the forthcoming restoration, this piece of nonsense will have to go.
From photos posted on various forums the glass in question survived the fire..
Lets have a look at another cathedral where something similar happened in 1996..Only here it was arson.
St Patrick’s Catholic Cathedral Parramatta, Australia.
In 1792 five Catholic lay people (four men and one woman) who were resident in Parramatta petitioned Governor Philip to appoint a priest to minister to them and in 1803 it was announced by Governor King that Fr James Dixon was to fill the role. The first Mass in Parramatta was celebrated by Fr Dixon on 15 May 1803, but his appointment was revoked after the “Vinegar Hill Rebellion” at Castle Hill in 1804.
Fr John Joseph Therry arrived in Parramatta in 1820 and set about obtaining a grant of land for a Catholic church, while establishing Australia’s first Catholic school in Hunter Street, Parramatta. In 1836 the foundation stone for a church was laid by Bishop Polding, the building being opened in 1837. In 1854 a new church was commissioned, based on a design by A.W.N. Pugin, although the tower was not completed until 1880, with the spire following in 1883.
In 1936 the building was totally rebuilt to accommodate a larger congregation, although the Pugin-designed tower and spire were retained. With the growth of western Sydney the Diocese of Parramatta was created and in 1986 St Patrick’s was designated a Cathedral.
The first organ in St Patrick’s was built in 1852 by J.C. Bishop, of London, for St Benedict’s Broadway – it possessed two manuals and 12 stops. It served St Benedict’s until 1892 when it was installed at St Patrick’s by Charles Richardson. This rare instrument survived largely in original condition until the early 1960s, when vandals removed much of its metal pipework, resulting in the instrument’s dispersal. In 1981 St Patrick’s acquired yet another second-hand organ, this time from the Grand Masonic Lodge in Castlereagh Street, Sydney. Built in 1923 by Holroyd & Edwards, of Sydney, the organ (of two manuals and 10 speaking stops) had been electrified in 1970 by Pitchford & Garside, who also undertook some tonal modifications.
St Patrick’s was gutted in a fire that was set by an arsonist on 19 February 1996 and the Holroyd & Edwards instrument was totally destroyed. There began a lengthy process to raise funds and develop designs for the rebuilding of the 1936 church (to serve as the Blessed Sacrament Chapel) and the provision of a modern new cathedral to adjoin it. The state government provided a multi-million dollar grant to assist the project. The firm of Mitchell, Giurgola and Thorp (best known for its design of Parliament House in Canberra) was successful in being awarded the design contract and the completed building was opened on 29 November 2003. The Pope’s special envoy for the occasion, Cardinal Edward Cassidy, presided at the Mass.
The old church is no longer used for regular masses. A modern structure has been built beside it. Still called St Patrick’s Cathedral, this is where regular church services are being held.
I’m unable to find any photos of the original interior of St. Patrick’s, but I’m sure it was way better than whats there now.The fire at St. Patrick’s Cathedral in Parramatta (Australia) in February 1996 left only the exterior walls standing.The property damage came to US$ 4.3m.The arsonist was arrested the very next day after the inferno.
It was only when flames were seen shooting through the roof that the fire was discovered. By this time the cathedral was beyond saving, because just ten minutes later the entire roof was ablaze.
In spite of the massive fire-fighting effort – involving six teams on the ground and two aerial units – it was only possible to prevent the flames from spreading to a neighboring school.The cathedral burnt down to its exterior walls.
As the spire was threatening to collapse, fire fighters and construction workers removed parts of the structure that very night.The following day, the police succeeded in tracing a 21-year-old man who during the subsequent questioning confessed to starting the fires in the church. Previous fires in the vicinity of the church were also his work.@apelles wrote:
Lets have a look at another cathedral where something similar happened in 1996..Only here it was arson.
St Patrick’s Catholic Cathedral Parramatta, Australia.
In 1792 five Catholic lay people (four men and one woman) who were resident in Parramatta petitioned Governor Philip to appoint a priest to minister to them and in 1803 it was announced by Governor King that Fr James Dixon was to fill the role. The first Mass in Parramatta was celebrated by Fr Dixon on 15 May 1803, but his appointment was revoked after the “Vinegar Hill Rebellion” at Castle Hill in 1804.
Fr John Joseph Therry arrived in Parramatta in 1820 and set about obtaining a grant of land for a Catholic church, while establishing Australia’s first Catholic school in Hunter Street, Parramatta. In 1836 the foundation stone for a church was laid by Bishop Polding, the building being opened in 1837. In 1854 a new church was commissioned, based on a design by A.W.N. Pugin, although the tower was not completed until 1880, with the spire following in 1883.
In 1936 the building was totally rebuilt to accommodate a larger congregation, although the Pugin-designed tower and spire were retained. With the growth of western Sydney the Diocese of Parramatta was created and in 1986 St Patrick’s was designated a Cathedral.
The first organ in St Patrick’s was built in 1852 by J.C. Bishop, of London, for St Benedict’s Broadway – it possessed two manuals and 12 stops. It served St Benedict’s until 1892 when it was installed at St Patrick’s by Charles Richardson. This rare instrument survived largely in original condition until the early 1960s, when vandals removed much of its metal pipework, resulting in the instrument’s dispersal. In 1981 St Patrick’s acquired yet another second-hand organ, this time from the Grand Masonic Lodge in Castlereagh Street, Sydney. Built in 1923 by Holroyd & Edwards, of Sydney, the organ (of two manuals and 10 speaking stops) had been electrified in 1970 by Pitchford & Garside, who also undertook some tonal modifications.
St Patrick’s was gutted in a fire that was set by an arsonist on 19 February 1996 and the Holroyd & Edwards instrument was totally destroyed. There began a lengthy process to raise funds and develop designs for the rebuilding of the 1936 church (to serve as the Blessed Sacrament Chapel) and the provision of a modern new cathedral to adjoin it. The state government provided a multi-million dollar grant to assist the project. The firm of Mitchell, Giurgola and Thorp (best known for its design of Parliament House in Canberra) was successful in being awarded the design contract and the completed building was opened on 29 November 2003. The Pope’s special envoy for the occasion, Cardinal Edward Cassidy, presided at the Mass.
The old church is no longer used for regular masses. A modern structure has been built beside it. Still called St Patrick’s Cathedral, this is where regular church services are being held.
I’m unable to find any photos of the original interior of St. Patrick’s, but I’m sure it was way better than whats there now.The fire at St. Patrick’s Cathedral in Parramatta (Australia) in February 1996 left only the exterior walls standing.The property damage came to US$ 4.3m.The arsonist was arrested the very next day after the inferno.
It was only when flames were seen shooting through the roof that the fire was discovered. By this time the cathedral was beyond saving, because just ten minutes later the entire roof was ablaze.
In spite of the massive fire-fighting effort – involving six teams on the ground and two aerial units – it was only possible to prevent the flames from spreading to a neighboring school.The cathedral burnt down to its exterior walls.
As the spire was threatening to collapse, fire fighters and construction workers removed parts of the structure that very night.The following day, the police succeeded in tracing a 21-year-old man who during the subsequent questioning confessed to starting the fires in the church. Previous fires in the vicinity of the church were also his work.Do not even think about it. The destruction of this church was a black comedy of errors even to the extent that the idiot in charge could not find the keys to let in the fire brigade when it arrived.
Longford deserves better that this. Start thinking in terms of the Frauendom in Dresden.
Here are some notes on the rebuilding of the Frauenkirche in Dresden:
http://www.frauenkirche-dresden.de/wiederaufbau+M5d637b1e38d.html
If we recall, it went from this:
to this:
It has to be said that a good deal more survives of Longford Cathedral to make its reconstruction more easy. What is required here is a sense of occasion and the ability to think beyond the gold-fish bowl.
@james1852 wrote:
Correct Praxiteles, this work was carried out in by James Hodkinson in 1862 .In 2 years time it will 150 years since these ceilings were decorated and they are still in excellant condition although not as bright as when they were originally done.
Apologies Praxiteles,Just checked the records again , The Church of SS Peter and Paul was decorated in 1869 by James Hodkinson , It was the Cathedral of St. Mary and St Anne that was decorated in 1862 .
@Praxiteles wrote:
Do not even think about it. The destruction of this church was a black comedy of errors even to the extent that the idiot in charge could not find the keys to let in the fire brigade when it arrived.
Longford deserves better that this. Start thinking in terms of the Frauendom in Dresden.
I think the only positive outcome here, was the relocation and restoration of an historic Norman & Beard organ from a redundant church in London..
http://www.stephenbicknell.org/3.6.14.php
http://www.ohta.org.au/confs/Sydney/STPATRICKSCath.html
I remember reading about this incident back when it happened, the international press had hyped it up to suggest this was the cathedral for the diocese of Sydney, which of course is actually St Mary’s cathedral.
@Praxiteles wrote:
Do not even think about it. The destruction of this church was a black comedy of errors even to the extent that the idiot in charge could not find the keys to let in the fire brigade when it arrived.
Longford deserves better that this. Start thinking in terms of the Frauendom in Dresden.
Dear oh dear..of course the Diocese of Ardagh and Clonmacnoise deserves better that this. I probably didn’t make myself clear enough in that this is just an example of the kind of thing that could happen & has happened. If you take your eye off the ball, things can go horribly wrong…certainly.. not I, or anyone I know, would like to see this kind of thing in Longford.
….(Down with this sort of thing)
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