reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches

Home Forums Ireland reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches

Viewing 20 posts - 6,041 through 6,060 (of 7,927 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #773256
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    St Colman’s cathedral, Cobh, Co. Cork.

    Two video clips showed up recently on Gloria.TV of the Solemn High Mass celebrated in Cobh cathedral last July in the presence of George Cardinal pell, Archbishop of Sydney. While they do not ahve sound, they do well illustrate how the sanctuary in Cobh should function – especially when the throne is occupied:

    The formal entry of a Cardinal:

    http://it.gloria.tv/?media=38513

    and

    The incensation of the Altar at the beginning of Mass

    http://it.gloria.tv/?media=38512

    #773257
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    St. Patrick’s Basilica, Montreal (1843-1847) by Pierre-Louis Morin and Fr Félix Martin sj

    #773258
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    For anyone looking for a cheer-up and a good laugh in the midst of the November dreariness, Praxitelex shares the following which was published on http://verbumpatris.wordpress.com/ .

    The national Centre for Liturgy in Association with the Advisory Committee on Sacred Art and Architecture will hold a day long conference for architects and artists and people interested and involved in places of worship on Saturday November 28th, in the Renehan Hall, St. Patrick’s College Maynooth from 11 until 4. Registration €25 through the national centre for Liturgy, St. Patrick’s College, 01- 7083478

    Once again, it sounds like Chateaubriand’s description of Talleyrand and Fouché, la vision infernale… le vice appuyé sur le bras du crime.

    “Ensuite, je me rendis chez Sa Majesté : introduit dans une des chambres qui précédaient celle du roi, je ne trouvai personne ; je m’assis dans un coin et j’attendis. Tout à coup une porte s’ouvre: entre silencieusement le vice appuyé sur le bras du crime, M. de Talleyrand marchant soutenu par M. Fouché ; la vision infernale passe lentement devant moi, pénètre dans le cabinet du roi et disparaît. Fouché venait jurer foi et hommage à son seigneur ; le féal régicide, à genoux, mît les mains qui firent tomber la tête de Louis XVI entre les mains du frère du roi martyr ; l’évêque apostat fut caution du serment.

    Chateaubriand, Mémoires d’Outre-tombe”

    #773259
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    St. Colman’s Cathedral, Cobh, Co. Cork

    Finally, the “restoration” steering committee have returned their accounts (late) for the fiscal year of 2008. As you will notice, the accounts are dated 28 May – a full two months after the chairman vacated the government of the diocese of Cloyne.

    After the resignations of two very reliable Vicars General (o’callaghan and o’donnell) and the death of another member, this depleted committee now consists of the following:

    Bishop John Magee, Denis Murphy, Frank Walley, Brian Carroll, and Robin Morrissey.

    From the accounts it would appear that we have one million euro in the bank at 31 december 2008.

    Interestingly, Euro 40,000 was obtauined from the Heritage Council to do the fanmous survey conducted by TKB SOuthgate etc. which, from other lines in the accounts, would appear to have cost about Euro 58,000.

    Watch this space.

    #773260
    pandaz7
    Participant

    @Praxiteles wrote:

    St Colman’s cathedral, Cobh, Co. Cork.

    Two video clips showed up recently on Gloria.TV of the Solemn High Mass celebrated in Cobh cathedral last July in the presence of George Cardinal pell, Archbishop of Sydney. While they do not ahve sound, they do well illustrate how the sanctuary in Cobh should function – especially when the throne is occupied:

    The formal entry of a Cardinal:

    http://it.gloria.tv/?media=38513

    and

    The incensation of the Altar at the beginning of Mass

    http://it.gloria.tv/?media=38512

    Must say I love this “formal entry” with the big cloak and some lackey getting to carry the train!! How humble. I seem to remember something from my schooldays about Jesus entering Jerusalem on a donkey. This boyo is obviously quite a VIP!

    #773261
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    @pandaz7 wrote:

    Must say I love this “formal entry” with the big cloak and some lackey getting to carry the train!! How humble. I seem to remember something from my schooldays about Jesus entering Jerusalem on a donkey. [/B] This boyo is obviously quite a VIP!

    Stable theology?

    #773262
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    St, Colman’s Cathedral, Cobh Co. Cork.

    Recently, Praxiteles received an extraordinary bundle of documentation which was wrenched from the public service by means of a Freedom of Information Request to which response had to be made despite a certain reluctance in the same service to “share” information with the publich which continues to pay these people even in critical economic times. It makes for highly interesting reading and Praxiteles hpoes to Share some fot eh costlier nuggets with readers over the coming weeks.

    Firstly, we now know for certain that the collapse of the Bath sheeting on the south arcade was inceed cause by water ingress not only form the roof .which was defectively installed during the 1990s reatoration- but also from the the external walls. Praxiteles believed that the pointing on the South facade had been incompenently done during the restoration works in the 1990s. Praxiteles now reads that this was not the case. Instead, it turns out that having grotted out the original pointing to the limestone courses on the south facade IT WAS NOT REPLACED AT ALL. Can you imagine that!

    Read for yourself:

    “Although it was initially felt that the heating system was causing the decay (of the Bath stone), due to condensation, the infra-red syrvey showed that this was not the case. This lead to an examination of the external stone fabric and it was discovered thatthe fine joints of the limestone were not repointed during restoration works carried out in the 1990s. It is now thought that the water ingress through these fine limestone joints could be the cause of the internal stone decay”.

    #773263
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    St. Colman’s Cathedral, Cobh, Co. Cork

    Praxiteles has been busy reding through the enormous bundle of material jack-hammared from the public service on the present condition of Cobh Cathedral. The exercise has been useful: it has confirmed waht the FOSCC has been saying for at least three years (Cobh Cathedral is in serious decay and needs immeidate attention); and that the building is in the hands of ignorant incompetent people who have no realization of the importance of the building of which they are supposed to be stewards.

    We now know that the cause of the collapse of the masonary from the south arcade is water ingress which is caused by the defective functioning of the exterior envelope of the building. Those defects are, in almost all cases, due to defective work carried out in the so-called restoration work of the 1990s. In fact, these restoration works -which cost Euro 4.5 million – have caused more problems with consequent decay to the fabric of the building than had occurred sine Cobh Cathedral was build between 1868 and 1919. It is unconscienable that the pointing works carried out the south facade in the 1990s have resulted in the rapid decay of the internal Bath stone. Suffiece it to say that 2 kilos of dust from the Bath stone fell into the protective nets now hanging from the south clerstory between March and September 2008.

    The second major source of problems giving rise to water ingress is LAZINESS. It appears that noticeable damage has been caused to the internal fabric of the Cathedral (including some of Oppenheimer’s opus sectile shrines) due to water ingress deriving from blocked down-water goods. The idiots in charge of the place did/do not know that gutter pipes have to be cleaned at least twice a year. The result here is that wtare just streams down the walls and into the non-pointed limestone joints and eventually end as salt causing the mosaics on the walls to lift or as dust in safety nets.

    A thrid problem derives from rising dampness -although not very extensive – again due to laziness because the people in charge did/do not know that a blocked drain should be freed and that the underground drains should be kept clear so as to insure that water will not lodge in the artificial platform on which the building is constructed.

    #773264
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    St. Colman’s Cathedral Cobh, Co. Cork

    PS: Despite gushing affirmations that the Cathedral authorities have undertaken extensive public consultation information on the Cathedral situation before applying to the Heritage Council for money, it has to be pointed out that none of the information which has come to hand has ever been publicly mentioned to anyone in Cobh – let alone the diocese of Cloyne.

    #773265
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    St. Colman’s Cathedral, Cobh, Co. Cork

    The Conservation maintenance Plan for Cobh Cathedral consists of some 12 phases. In general, this is a welcome development – teh FOSCC have for long been deploring the fact that the maintenance of this important building has had no structural organisation and no specific on-going maintenhjance checks.

    The first 4 phases -designed for the most part to stop water ingress will cost Euro 714,052.00. And that is only for starters.

    More worrying however, is phase 12. Here we are back to liturgical requirements again. Certainly, no financial support can be given to the current Cathedral Restoration Project until we have a bit up-front honesty and transparency this time about what the next round of “liturgical requirements” is destined to bring.

    #773266
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    The Pope delivered this highly unusual address at yesterday’s General Audience:

    On Europe’s Cathedrals

    “Beauty Is a Privileged … Way to Approach the Mystery of God”

    VATICAN CITY, NOV. 18, 2009 (Zenit.org).- Here is a translation of Benedict XVI’s address today during the general audience, which was held in Paul VI Hall.

    * * *

    Dear brothers and sisters,

    In the catecheses of recent weeks I have presented some aspects of Medieval theology. However Christian faith, profoundly rooted in the men and women of those centuries, did not only give origin to masterpieces of theological literature, of thought and of faith. It also inspired one of the loftiest artistic creations of universal civilization: the cathedrals, true glory of the Christian Middle Ages. In fact, for almost three centuries, beginning in the 11th century, Europe witnessed an extraordinary artistic fervor. An ancient chronicler describes thus the enthusiasm and industry of that time: “It happened that the whole world, but especially in Italy and in Gaul, churches began to be reconstructed, although many, being in good conditions, had no need of this restoration. It was as though one village and another competed; it was as if the world, shaking off its old rags, wished to be clothed everywhere in the white garment of new churches. In sum, almost all the cathedral churches, a great number of monastic churches, and even village chapels, were then restored by the faithful” (Rodolfo el Glabro, Historiarum 3,4).

    Several factors contributed to this rebirth of religious architecture. First of all, more favorable historical conditions, such as greater political security, accompanied by a constant increase in the population and the progressive development of cities, of exchanges and of wealth. Moreover, architects found increasingly elaborate technical solutions to increase the dimension of buildings, ensuring at the same time their firmness and majesty. However, it was thanks primarily to the spiritual ardor and zeal of monasticism then in full expansion that abbey churches were erected, where the liturgy could be celebrated with dignity and solemnity, and the faithful could remain in prayer, attracted by the veneration of the relics of the saints, object of countless pilgrimages. Thus the Romanesque churches and cathedrals were born, characterized by their longitudinal development along the naves to house numerous faithful; very solid churches, with thick walls, stone vaults and simple and essential lines.

    A novelty is represented by the introduction of sculptures. As Romanesque churches were the place of monastic prayer and the faithful’s worship, the sculptors, rather than being concerned with technical perfection, took care above all of the educational end. It was necessary to arouse in souls strong impressions, feelings that could incite them to flee from vice and evil and practice virtue, goodness — the recurrent theme was the representation of Christ as Universal Judge, surrounded by the personages of revelation. In general it is Romanesque facades that offer this representation, to underline that Christ is the door that leads to heaven. The faithful, crossing the threshold of the sacred building, entered a time and space that were different from those of ordinary life. Beyond the main door of the church, believers in the sovereign, just and merciful Christ could — the artists hoped — anticipate eternal happiness in the celebration of the liturgy and in acts of piety carried out inside the sacred building.

    In the 12th and 13th centuries, beginning in the north of France, another type of architecture spread in the construction of sacred buildings: the Gothic. This style had two new characteristics as compared to the Romanesque: the vertical thrust and luminosity. Gothic cathedrals showed a synthesis of faith and art expressed harmoniously through the universal and fascinating language of beauty, which still today awakens wonder. Thanks to the introduction of pointed vaults, which were supported by robust pillars, it was possible to notably raise the height [of these churches]. The thrust to the sublime was an invitation to prayer and at the same time was a prayer. The Gothic cathedral thus wished to translate in its architectural lines souls longing for God. Moreover, with the new technical solutions, the perimeter walls could be penetrated and embellished by colorful stained glass windows. In other words, the windows were transformed into great luminous figures, very adapted to instructing the people in the faith. In them — scene by scene — were narrated the life of a saint, a parable or other biblical events. From the painted windows a cascade of light was shed on the faithful to narrate to them the history of salvation and to involve them in this history.

    Another merit of the Gothic cathedrals was the fact that, in their construction and decoration, the Christian and civil community participated in a different but coordinated way; the poor and the powerful, the illiterate and the learned participated, because in this common house all believers were instructed in the faith. Gothic sculpture made of cathedrals a “Bible of stone,” representing the episodes of the Gospel and illustrating the contents of the Liturgical Year, from Christmas to the Lord’s glorification. Spreading ever more in those centuries, moreover, was the perception of the Lord’s humanity, and the sufferings of his Passion were represented in a realistic way: The suffering Christ (Christus patiens) became an image loved by all, and able to inspire piety and repentance for sins. Not lacking were the personages of the Old Testament, whose history became familiar to the faithful in such a way that they frequented the cathedrals as part of the one, common history of salvation. With their faces full of beauty, tenderness, intelligence, Gothic sculpture of the 13th century reveals a happy and serene piety, which is pleased to emanate a heartfelt and filial devotion to the Mother of God, seen at times as a young, smiling and maternal woman, and represented primarily as the sovereign of heaven and earth, powerful and merciful.

    The faithful who filled the Gothic cathedrals wanted to find in them artistic expressions that recalled the saints, models of Christian life and intercessors before God. And there was no lack of “lay” manifestations of existence; hence there appeared here and there representations of work in the fields, in the sciences and in the arts. Everything was oriented and offered to God in the place where the liturgy was celebrated. We can understand better the meaning that was attributed to a Gothic cathedral, considering the text of an inscription on the main door of St. Denis in Paris: “Passer-by, you who want to praise the beauty of these doors, do not be dazzled either by the gold or the magnificence, but by the laborious work. Here shines a famous work, but may the heavens allow that this famous work which shines make spirits shine, so that with luminous truths they will walk toward the true light, where Christ is the true door.”

    Dear brothers and sisters, I now wish to underline two elements of Romanesque and Gothic art, which are also useful for us.

    The first: the works of art born in Europe in past centuries are incomprehensible if one does not take into account the religious soul that inspired them. Marc Chagall, an artist who has always given testimony of the encounter between aesthetics and faith, wrote that “for centuries painters have dyed their brush in that colored alphabet that is the Bible.” When faith, celebrated in a particular way in the liturgy, encounters art, a profound synchrony is created, because both can and want to praise God, making the Invisible visible. I would like to share this in the meeting with artists on Nov. 21, renewing that proposal of friendship between Christian spirituality and art, desired by my venerated predecessors, in particular by the Servants of God Paul VI and John Paul II.

    The second element: the force of the Romanesque style and the splendor of the Gothic cathedrals remind us that the via pilchritudinis, the way of beauty, is a privileged and fascinating way to approach the Mystery of God. What is beauty, which writers, poets, musicians, and artists contemplate and translate into their language, if not the reflection of the splendor of the Eternal Word made flesh? St. Augustine states: “Ask the beauty of the earth, ask the beauty of the sea, ask the beauty of the ample and diffused air. Ask the beauty of heaven, ask the order of the stars, ask the sun, which with its splendor brightens the day; ask the moon, which with its clarity moderates the darkness of night. Ask the beasts that move in the water, that walk on the earth, that fly in the air: souls that hide, bodies that show themselves; the visible that lets itself be guided, the invisible that guides. Ask them! All will answer you: Look at us, we are beautiful! Their beauty makes them known. This mutable beauty, who has created it if not Immutable Beauty?” (Sermo CCXLI, 2: PL 38, 1134).

    Dear brothers and sisters, may the Lord help us to rediscover the way of beauty as one of the ways, perhaps the most attractive and fascinating, to be able to find and love God.

    #773267
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    St. Colman’s Cathedral, Cobh Co. Cork.

    Prxiteles fears that the story of the so called “conservation” and ” restortaion” of Cobh cathedral just get worse by the minute. It was an almight bags up of a job from top to bottom.

    In the latest documentation which has come to praxiteles we leard that the services of a bulding consult were obtained in ERngland to ascertain where the water ingress on th sout arcade might be coming from. It was conducted by a firm called IBIS. The findings make for depressing reading.

    Not only have we the problem of incompetent pointing and laziness leading to blocked gutters, it also looks as though the entire slating used in the new roof must be called into question.

    It transpired that the dust falling from the walls of the south arcade was discovered to contain significant traces of sopper as well as salt. The question is: where could the copper have come from as there is little or none of it on the high levels of the Cathedral – except for the nails used to fix the new slates specially imported from Vermont. It appears that all of those nails hols have been expanding and are leaving in water. It appears that the type of slate material, its size and rough texture facilitate movement and deterioration around the nail holes which in turn leave in water which flows down inside the ceiling boards leaving them a nice green colour, and from there down onto the Bath stone cladding of the south arcade. Incerdibly, aftyer less than 20 years there is also significant slate loss on the roof as well.

    Just what were these idiots up to?

    #773268
    gunter
    Participant

    @Praxiteles wrote:

    The Pope . . . . on Europe’s Cathedrals

    ”Dear brothers and sisters, I now wish to underline two elements of Romanesque and Gothic art, which are also useful for us.

    The first: the works of art born in Europe in past centuries are incomprehensible if one does not take into account the religious soul that inspired them”.

    Nobody can deny that there was an extraordinary explosion in church building in the middle ages and the development of Romanesque, and more particularly Gothic, architecture was driven by the church,


    a medieval painting depicting a bungalow-blight scale frenzy of church building

    . . . . . but I’m not sure if we can conclude from this that Romanesque and Gothic art and architecture are ‘incomprehensible’ without taking the religious soul that inspired them into account.

    There was a secular branch to the medieval building industry and the art, architecture and craftsmanship evident in this branch was often of equal standard to that invested in the ecclesiastical branch.


    the famous Cloth Hall in Ypres, prior to distruction in the first world war.

    What do you believe Praxiteles? Is this art and architecture incomprehensible without taking the religious soul that inspired them into account?

    #773269
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    To answer your question Gunter, I am inclined to think that Medieval architecture, whether civil or secular (for whetever sense that disticntion makes in the Medieval context) cannot be understood (or perhaps better, apreciated) outside of its historical or social context. In the case of the Middle Ages, we are talking of the age of belief.

    Of course, by understanding a building I mean more than than the technical skills needed to put stone on stone or brick or brick. Were we to look at matters only in that way, then clerly it would make little difference were we considering a church, cathedral, castle or clothiers’ hall.

    #773270
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    St. Colman’s Cathedral, Cobh, Co. Cork

    Looking again at the famous Conservation management Plan for Cobh Cathedral, it is interesting to note that one of the recommendations for the future security of the building is teh constitution of an professional body with responsibility for its general and exceptional maintenance. It is also recommended that the members of this body should be conservation specialists and that the overall supervision fo the fabric be entrusted to a professional surveyor.

    Two things abut this: it illustrates the complete collapse of any clerical ability properly to administer a building such as Cobh cathedral – indeed a steep decline from the days of Bishop Robert Browne who knew exactly what he was about when he finished the building process.

    Secondly, it is rather peculiar that the Heritage Council spent Euro 40,000 on a report destined to tell a few incompetent clerics to clean their rainwater goods and entrust the maintenance of the fabric to a professional body when they could have learned as much from reading this thread over the past two years. Amazing ….

    #773271
    samuel j
    Participant

    @Praxiteles wrote:

    St. Colman’s Cathedral, Cobh, Co. Cork

    Looking again at the famous Conservation management Plan for Cobh Cathedral, it is interesting to note that one of the recommendations for the future security of the building is teh constitution of an professional body with responsibility for its general and exceptional maintenance. It is also recommended that the members of this body should be conservation specialists and that the overall supervision fo the fabric be entrusted to a professional surveyor.

    Something we all knew, glad that at last this is being recommended officially.:)
    As to the muppets who did not complete the last job, should they not be sued and try to get some compensation to go towards the work that now has to be re-done.:mad:

    #773272
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    @samuel j wrote:

    Something we all knew, glad that at last this is being recommended officially.:)
    As to the muppets who did not complete the last job, should they not be sued and try to get some compensation to go towards the work that now has to be re-done.:mad:

    Samuelj!

    Saying that this is officially recommended is perhaps un peu de trop. The recommendation is made by TKB consultants in their Conservation Management Report which was commissioned, it would seem, largely for the formal purposes of obtaining further monies from the Heritage Council. In that respect, the objective was fully met in that the Heritage Council sees no difficulty at all in dishing out public monies to an incompetent outfit such as Cobh Cathedral Restoration Committee without any degree of follow up to ensure that public monies have been well spent. his time around, the Heritage Council gave Euro 40k to pay for TKB’s Conservation Management Report. In 2002, it gave further monies for a Conservation Report – the Carrig Report (sections of which are incorporated into the CMR without reference or mention in the bibliography). In addition, the Heritage Council hs just given a further Euro 40k for works to seal the exteriro envelope of the Cathedral. Although consitions -including for inspection- have been placed on the grant it remains to be seen if they are intended for real or are just typographical decoration.

    The Heritage Council should, however, be mindful taht a grant of something in the region of Euro 250K made to the last “restoration” work on the Cathedral was expended on works which have in some cases accelerated the decay of the building rather than its conservation while in other cases has actually caused further decay to the faric of the building. Is it unreasonable to enquire if the Heritage Council satisfied itself in 1997 that the grant aid from public funds was correctly applied through useful and positive works?

    #773273
    gunter
    Participant

    It’s interesting that the more we attempt to regulate conservation, the less good we seem to be at it.

    In the past, the repair and conservation of buildings of the scale of Cobh Cathedral was entrusted to the hands of a dedicated workshop, a small band of craftsmen with masonry, carpentry and roofing skills, who were based on-site and who were permanently employed on a building that they each knew intimately.

    The last time I saw anything remotely like this was as a kid watching the slow methodical restoration of the facade of Bank of Ireland, College Green. From memory, what appeared to have happened here is that some enlightened accountant type in the bank took on two or three experienced stone masons, organized a supply of Portland stone and a few sticks of scaffolding and let them loose in Foster’s Place. After much tapping and chiselling and several years later, the little motley crew had reached Westmoreland Street and the job was done. I have a recollection that the cost was published some time later and it was a shockingly small figure, even for those days.

    Now we operate a different system. We’ve stopped seeing conservation as an on-going process, part of the life-story of the building, now we want to see conservation as a defined action that we can ring-fence, package, get done and walk away from.

    Sometimes there may be no alternative to this approach, but think of the resources that must be diverted away from actually conserving the building and into the preparation of planning application submissions, statutory notices, method statements, risk assessment analysis and health and safety plans, just to let a bunch of contractors loose on a building that they probably have never seen before, have no inherent understanding of, or perhaps even empathy for.

    I don’t think this is just a matter of competence, I think it’s a matter of looking again at the whole approach we take to the conservation of great buildings, like Cobh Cathedral.

    #773274
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    Gunter!

    “In the past, the repair and conservation of buildings of the scale of Cobh Cathedral was entrusted to the hands of a dedicated workshop, a small band of craftsmen with masonry, carpentry and roofing skills, who were based on-site and who were permanently employed on a building that they each knew intimately”.

    This is exactly the approach used for the conservation of Cologne Cathedral. Effectively, the Dombauverein is the modern successor of the the Dombauhutte that built the Cathedral 800 years ago. This organisation employs (in the usual OTT German manner) 5 architects to maintain the fabric, and a small army of masons, carpenters and other craftsmen – many of them succeeding their forefathers in these tasks. And, it has to be said, the system works.

    It is becoming more and more obvious that the 1990s “restoration” of Cobh Cathedral was an unmitigated disastre.

    #773275
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    @Praxiteles wrote:

    This is exactly the approach used for the conservation of Cologne Cathedral. Effectively, the Dombauverein is the modern successor of the the Dombauhutte that built the Cathedral 800 years ago. This organisation employs (in the usual OTT German manner) 5 architects to maintain the fabric, and a small army of masons, carpenters and other craftsmen – many of them succeeding their forefathers in these tasks. And, it has to be said, the system works.

    Prax, actually the Dombauhütte is still in existence and carries out the physical maintenance work of the Cathedral.

    Whereas the Dombauverein (Verein = non-profit organisation) would be involved in the raising of funds for the Dombauhütte.

    Dombauhütte

    Für alle Arten von Baumaßnahmen und den Erhalt des Bauwerkes sind die Mitarbeiter der Dombauhütte zuständig. Damit setzen sie die Tradition der mittelalterlichen Bauhütten fort.

    Zentral-Dombau-Verein

    Heutzutage bedarf es bedeutender Summen, um den Kölner Dom zu bewahren, denn nicht nur Wind und Wetter, sondern auch Luftschadstoffe setzen dem Bau zu. Die wichtigste Stütze ist weiterhin der Zentral-Dombau-Verein zu Köln. Zu den Gesamtkosten von 6 bis 7 Millionen Euro pro Jahr steuert der Verein jeweils rund die Hälfte bei. 😎

Viewing 20 posts - 6,041 through 6,060 (of 7,927 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.