reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches
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Praxiteles.
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- October 29, 2008 at 9:27 pm #772136
Praxiteles
ParticipantWord has it that the Cloyne HACK, after almost three years of “deliberation” and a full year since the collapse of part of the south arcade, will present Cobh Urban Disctrict Council with its plans and proposals for the “restoration” of the mosaic floors and west screens of Cobh Cathedral. This is clearly going to be a very interesting process and one, no doubt, guided by the great hope of carrying out all of this work without planning permission or declarations of exemption. Just watch this spot for further developments.
Interesting, the Southgate who is doing this appears to be an engineer rather than an architect – that will be interesting as far as design concernes are concerned.
October 29, 2008 at 9:33 pm #772137Praxiteles
ParticipantThis is what the “news” section of TKB-Southgate webpage has to say:
“TKB-Southgate Associates work on historic Neo-Gothic Cathedral, Cork
St. Coleman’s Cathedral, Cobh, Cork is a landmark neo-gothic building in the early French Decorated Gothic style overlooking Cork harbour. Described as the most ambitious and costly ecclesiastical building of the Victorian era. Began in 1868 it was the work of E.W. Pugin, G. Ashilin and T. Coleman and was not completed until 1915. It is the Roman Catholic Cathedral for the Diocese of Cloyne. TKB Southgate Associates are involved in the conservation of the building from mosaic restoration to addressing falling damp issues.”
The final sentence is rather criptic and we are not told much as what the involvement consists of. As for the falling dampness problem, well we suppose that refers to the fact the present new roof is quite porous and pretty soon umbrellas will be needed to to visit the interior on a wet day – and probably also hard hats as a precautuoon against collapsing masonry.
October 29, 2008 at 9:36 pm #772138Praxiteles
ParticipantAnd here we have next round of people to “assist” the Cloyne HACK with Cobh Cathedral.

Dr. Thomas Brennan, Ph.D, BSc. Building Surveying, CRST, ISBE
Managing DirectorThomas, the founder of TKB, has devoted the greater part of his life to developing and researching methods of non-destructive treatment and protection of historic buildings and family homes – (Thomas pioneered several non intrusive exploratory techniques which has greatly reduced damage and costs normally associated with general inspection methods). He has completed the Foundation Civil and Commercial Mediation Training Programme.
Thomas is actively involved in many European research projects including: European Research on Cultural Heritage, Histoclean and the ARCCHIP Programme funded by the European Parliament. He is the Chairman of the Irish Damp Proofing Association, Founder Member of the European Dry Rot Research Association and the Irish Director of the International Society for the Built Environment. He has lectured in Trinity, UCC, RICS, Dublin Chamber of Commerce, Bolton Street College, Chief City Architects and Associates of Dublin City Corporation, UCD and at other European Conferences. With a Doctorate in Conservation, Thomas has won the Conservation Award of Excellence and numerous awards for his work such as on the Old County Hospital Portlaois, Farmleigh House and 25 Eustace Street, Dublin.

Chris Southgate, MA FIEI MIStructE., Chartered Engineer
DirectorChris is the Founder of Chris Southgate & Associates (CHSA), the first engineering practice in Ireland to specialise in Historic Buildings. He studied Engineering at Cambridge and is a Fellow of the Institution of Engineers of Ireland and a Member of the Institute of Structural Engineers.
His early work consisted of taking on some of Ireland’s most dangerous buildings. A particular example is a project in Fenns Quay, Cork, where one engineer described any attempt to conserve the buildings would result in their immediate collapse. As a result of his conservation experience, the project later went on to win a Europa Nostra Award and the FTPI Silver Jubilee Award. He has sat on the Committee of the Dublin Civic Trust Technical Guidance Manual and wrote the chapter on structural conservation. He was also structural engineer for the Connemara West Centre which won the RIAI Bronze Medal award.
Apart from his conservation engineering experience, he also set up a company to specialise in all aspects of technical conservation of historic buildings where expertise ranges not only to the structure of the building but to stone decay, and other technical conservation issues in relation to the fabric of historic buildings. As such the practice developed a reputation for tackling all technical issues in relation to historic buildings. Chris was also instrumental in initiating conservation strategy advice for planning purposes and acted as planning consultant for some of Corks’ largest construction projects.
Chris Southgate is a regular lecturer on the conservation of historic building structures, understanding their deterioration and methodologies for conservative repair. He has lectured in UCD and in numerous conservation organisations such as the Dublin Civic Trust, The Irish Georgian Society and the Ulster Local Heritage Trust and The Historic Buildings of Ireland Conference. He has won a CIF Award for 25 Eustace Street Dublin.
October 29, 2008 at 9:39 pm #772139Praxiteles
ParticipantPraxiteles is delighted to see that Dr. Thomas Brennan is a Founder Member of the European Dry Rot Research Association. Indeed, Praxiteles suspects that since his coming into contact with the Cloyne HACK, he will have ample research opportunities to discover where or how the dry rot set in with that particular body. We can probably suspect that it started with the wets on it.
October 30, 2008 at 8:28 am #772140Praxiteles
ParticipantHere is a wonderful text written by the 9th century Irish monk Dongal at the instigation of the Emperor Louis the Pious against the iconoclast tendenceies of Clodius, Bishop of Turin. As it turns out, our friend Dungal is one of the very few Western iconodules and his text is one of the most important to have survived. He bequeathed his library of some 70 books (which included the Antiphonary of Bangor currently in the Biblioteca Ambrosiana in Milan) to the Abbey of Bobbio which was founded by San COlombanus.
It would behove the members of the Cloyne HACK to study this text very carefully. Indeed, with a luttle luck, Cobh Urban Council might be able to arrange fro someone from their adult literacy programme to help thiem in the task.
October 30, 2008 at 11:39 am #772141apelles
ParticipantDoes anyone have a definitive compilation of the “emblems of the passion”? i’m having no luck sourceing these.
October 30, 2008 at 2:11 pm #772142Praxiteles
Participant@apelles wrote:
Does anyone have a definitive compilation of the “emblems of the passion”? i’m having no luck sourceing these.
Cf. Hall’s Dictionary of Subjects and SYmbols in Art,
by James Hall, published by James Murray, London 1974
October 30, 2008 at 2:56 pm #772143Praxiteles
ParticipantThis may also be of use:
http://www.artcyclopedia.com/featuredarticle-2001-04.html
Se also some of the plates in Eamonn Duffy’s book, The Stripping of the Altars published by Yale University Press
Also, see examples of Fra Angelico’s frescos in the cells oft he Dominican Convent of San Marco in Florence
October 30, 2008 at 3:07 pm #772144Praxiteles
ParticipantAnd for th INstruments of the Passion see this:
http://collecties.meermanno.nl/handschriften/showillu?id=12216
a follower of Smon Bening, Low Countries
October 30, 2008 at 3:08 pm #772145Praxiteles
ParticipantSee The Mass of St Gregory and again
the image of the Man of Sorrows
October 30, 2008 at 3:14 pm #772146Praxiteles
ParticipantOctober 30, 2008 at 3:16 pm #772147Praxiteles
ParticipantThis one especially:
http://collecties.meermanno.nl/handschriften/showillu?id=19753
October 31, 2008 at 10:52 am #772148apelles
Participantthats very helpful indeed Praxiteles,I thought i had tried every combination but had’nt used “instuments” as a search word.
thou there is still some debate here as to exactly how many definitive emblems or instuments of the passion there are.
October 31, 2008 at 11:43 am #772149Praxiteles
ParticipantI do not think that you will ever have a definitive list as the devotion develoled over a leriod with different aslects being emlhasised in different llaces.
November 1, 2008 at 2:10 pm #772150Praxiteles
ParticipantDid you try “Vir Dolorum”?
November 4, 2008 at 4:01 pm #772151scenic route
ParticipantHi There,
I am quite new to this forum, but on quite a good look at this thread I find that there is quite extensive criticism and very little commendation of recent works to churches. I’m not saying the criticism is not warranted but I wonder could anyone send me in the direction of some churches that have been done well.
ThanksNovember 4, 2008 at 4:07 pm #772152Praxiteles
ParticipantI do believe this thread has featured a number of moodern churches and contemloraroy churches that have been well designed and built and which quite obviously form lart of the western liturgical and ecclesiastical/architectural tradition.
November 5, 2008 at 2:31 pm #772153apelles
Participantmy last post on this topic… think this is what i’ve been searching for..could be essential for anyone involved in any aspect of
church artistry.Church Symbolism By F. R. Webber, Ralph Adams Cram.
most of it can be viewed here..
http://books.google.ie/books?id=1dd70E-chqwC&pg=PA96&lpg=PA96&dq=pugins+alpha+omega
now i just have to see if its still in print.
November 5, 2008 at 7:22 pm #772154Praxiteles
Participant@apelles wrote:
my last post on this topic… think this is what i’ve been searching for..could be essential for anyone involved in any aspect of
church artistry.Church Symbolism By F. R. Webber, Ralph Adams Cram.
most of it can be viewed here..
http://books.google.ie/books?id=1dd70E-chqwC&pg=PA96&lpg=PA96&dq=pugins+alpha+omega
now i just have to see if its still in print.
Plenty of copies are available here:
November 6, 2008 at 4:34 pm #772155Praxiteles
ParticipantOn the following, which appeared on the Irish Times on 25 October 2008, we observe the principle de mortuis nihil nisi bonum:
Dominican scholar and activist who stirred up controversy
AUSTIN Flannery OP, who has died aged 83, was one of the mildest-mannered persons ever to acquire a reputation as a revolutionary. He was a scholar who wore his learning lightly, and an editor whose role in making the Second Vatican Council a reality for Catholics in Ireland and elsewhere conferred on him a quiet but undisputed authority in religious matters.
In any sphere of life, his intellectual and personal gifts would have secured him undoubted rewards. That he chose to dedicate these gifts to his community, his church and his country was all of a piece with his selfless character, enlivened – as it generally was – by an infectious sense of humour, and grounded in a strong social conscience.
Born at Rear Cross in Co Tipperary in 1925, Liam Flannery – Austin was the name he took in religion – was educated at St Flannan’s in Ennis, where two of his contemporaries were Kevin McNamara, later archbishop of Dublin, and Tomás Mac Giolla, later president of Sinn Féin and two of its successor parties. He was not greatly enthusiastic about Flannan’s, however, and persuaded his parents to send him to Dominican College, Newbridge, where he completed his secondary education.
His vocation to the Dominicans in 1943 then led him to St Mary’s, Tallaght, and onward to Blackfriars, Oxford (where he formed a lasting friendship with that other troublesome Dominican, Fr Herbert McCabe), and to the Angelicum in Rome.
He was ordained in 1950, and subsequently taught theology for two years at Glenstal Abbey. In 1957, he became editor of the Dominican journal Doctrine and Life. The bare statement of the fact, however, hardly does justice to the subtlety and energy which informed his approach to this task, turning the magazine, of which he remained editor until 1988, into required reading for a whole generation of clergy and laity who came of age, intellectually speaking, in the era of Vatican II.
The ferment that this event produced in Irish Catholicism in the late 1960s was often distilled skilfully in the pages of his magazine, where clergy and laity contributed to a debate characterised by charity as well as by intellectual rigour.
It was similar in some respects to The Furrow, which had been founded by Fr JG McGarry at Maynooth in 1950, but also complementary to that extraordinary journal. Both publications were, in their own way, pillars of ecclesial renewal.
Austin Flannery’s contributions, however, were not limited to the pages of the magazine. Encouraged by his friend Romuald Dodd OP, at that time religious adviser to RTÉ, he presented a series of late-night mini-programmes on that station in the Outlook slot, which changed it from a sleepy, pious, end-of-day moment into a storm-centre of controversy. One programme in 1968 in particular – in which he had the temerity, as it were, to invite the secretary of the Communist Party of Ireland, Michael O’Riordan, to discuss the then current housing crisis with him – provoked uproar in the Dáil.
The minister for local government, Kevin Boland, described him as a “so-called cleric”, and the minister for finance, Charles Haughey, castigated him as a “gullible cleric”. He affected surprise that anyone should have taken offence but – as was often the case – the twinkle in his eye gave the game away. It was not that the programme set out deliberately to outrage anyone – although it was the first time, in seven years of Irish television, that a member of that party had been given an opportunity to appear on the medium.
The bedrock value of his approach was its inclusive character: nobody who had something worthwhile to say should be excluded from public debate because they had been stereotyped or labelled as a member of a minority.
Public controversies like these rolled lightly off his broad shoulders. More privately, he was involved with others – people like Seán Mac Réamoinn, Canon Charles Gray-Stack of the Church of Ireland, Jack Dowling, and James White (in whose flat above the Municipal Gallery of Modern Art many meetings were held) – in a discussion group known colloquially as Flannery’s Harriers.
This group, at which brief papers would be read, followed by a discussion, was noted for its broad reach into all the Christian denominations, and for the ferocity with which the theological and intellectual points raised were sometimes pursued.
Ten years after the end of the Vatican council, his major work Vatican Council ll: The Conciliar and Post-Conciliar Documents, was issued simultaneously by six publishing houses in Ireland, the UK and the USA: it was immediately to become the standard work for use by scholars dealing with these momentous events.
But his scholarship was always complemented by an active engagement in contemporary events. He had been involved for many years in the Irish Anti-Apartheid Movement, of which he became successively chairman and, in 1981, president. In 1983 he was involved with many others in opposition to the Criminal Justice Bill of that year, an issue which was closely linked to his constant concern for civil liberties in a number of other important areas – prisons, social justice, and the powers being given to the police.
Characteristically, his departure from Doctrine and Life did not mean the end of his work in this field. Other magazines like Spirituality, and Religious Life Review were developed to meet new needs, and became as successful as the one whose fortunes he had guided for three decades.
Dominican Publications, of which he was in a special sense the progenitor, is a monument to his work. For those who knew him well – and he had an enormous circle of friends, not least in the media and communications – he was a man of many parts, but through all of them could be discerned the lineaments of the Tipperary in which he had spent his childhood, and the network of family and social relationships which remained central to his life.
He is survived by his brothers Paul and Jim, sisters Phyllis and Sadie, sisters-in-law and brothers-in-law, a niece, Sister Edel OP, and nieces and nephews.
Fr Austin Flannery: born January 10th, 1925; died October 21st, 2008
© 2008 The Irish Times
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