reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches
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The situation in the Church of Ireland has perhaps not been so extreme in that there has not in general been a wholesale destruction of Altars and sanctuary arrangements – and at any rate they are generally of a much simpler nature. Nonetheless the stripping of Churches such as the Collegiate Church at Youghal and the Cathedral at Limerick of their soft lime plaster has done no favours to some of our most important mediaeval buildings.
There has been a most unfortunate trend to pull altars away from the east wall ( almost all altars are movable tables of wood – the Cottingham Lady Chapel Altar which was the High Altar at Armagh, is a rare exception ). This has been done in that false spirit of liturgical renewal which has pervaded the Western Church, common in the Church of England and pioneered by those who claim Vatical II as their inspiration in the Roman Catholic Church althoug none of the liturgical documents requires such changes to existing altar arrangements.
@nebuly wrote:
The situation in the Church of Ireland has perhaps not been so extreme in that there has not in general been a wholesale destruction of Altars and sanctuary arrangements – and at any rate they are generally of a much simpler nature. Nonetheless the stripping of Churches such as the Collegiate Church at Youghal and the Cathedral at Limerick of their soft lime plaster has done no favours to some of our most important mediaeval buildings.
There has been a most unfortunate trend to pull altars away from the east wall ( almost all altars are movable tables of wood – the Cottingham Lady Chapel Altar which was the High Altar at Armagh, is a rare exception ). This has been done in that false spirit of liturgical renewal which has pervaded the Western Church, common in the Church of England and pioneered by those who claim Vatical II as their inspiration in the Roman Catholic Church althoug none of the liturgical documents requires such changes to existing altar arrangements.
Nebuly,
Thanks very much for that comment re the liturgical non-necessity of removing extant Altars in order to conform to the liturgical NORMS of the Second Vatican Council. One of the objectives of this thread has been to highlight this aspect of article 299 of the General Instruction to the Roman Missal.
Here’s a look at the parish church in Thomastown, Kilkenny
It’s interior has many of the features you’ll find the Puginesque churches of the South East; but here rather than granite columns we’re treated to beautiful Kilkenny Marble piers;
[ATTACH]7315[/ATTACH][ATTACH]7316[/ATTACH]
The North side chapel/parish arboretum has two interesting features;
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First this;
“All the post-Reformation chapels down to 1867 stood within Thomastown chapel graveyard. The venerable old chapel of the penal times was taken down about 1770 after the late parish chapel, in use until 1867 had been built over and around it. A prominent place in both these chapels was held by beautifully carved oak statue of the virgin and child, said to have been brought from Spain by Patrick Lincoln a wine merchant of Thomastown who died in 1666. Mr Lincoln’s widow Mrs Mary Lincoln otherwise Dobbin who died in 1709 presented the statue with crowns of silver in 1705… The statue has always held a place of prominence in the churches since 1705.”
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And then this; what looks to be an old font, rehabilitated for use as an indoor garden water feature.
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Here’s the altar with a good plaster reredos.
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And some lovely glass
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Large version; http://www.flickr.com/photos/58086761@N00/2442210149/sizes/l/in/photostream/
Looks like every window has protective glazing
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Lovely – but poor font; not respectful of its dignify.
I can cope with the manifestation of the Sacred Heart in the Hot House ot Kew I suppose.It puts me in mind of two oratorian priests of different houses who told me that they had ‘”first meet in a clearing in the sanctuary of the Birmingham Oratory at the Forty Hours”
@ake wrote:
Here’s a look at the parish church in Thomastown, Kilkenny
It’s interior has many of the features you’ll find the Puginesque churches of the South East; but here rather than granite columns we’re treated to beautiful Kilkenny Marble piers;
[ATTACH]7315[/ATTACH][ATTACH]7316[/ATTACH]
The North side chapel/parish arboretum has two interesting features;
[ATTACH]7317[/ATTACH]
First this;
“All the post-Reformation chapels down to 1867 stood within Thomastown chapel graveyard. The venerable old chapel of the penal times was taken down about 1770 after the late parish chapel, in use until 1867 had been built over and around it. A prominent place in both these chapels was held by beautifully carved oak statue of the virgin and child, said to have been brought from Spain by Patrick Lincoln a wine merchant of Thomastown who died in 1666. Mr Lincoln’s widow Mrs Mary Lincoln otherwise Dobbin who died in 1709 presented the statue with crowns of silver in 1705… The statue has always held a place of prominence in the churches since 1705.”
[ATTACH]7318[/ATTACH]
And then this; what looks to be an old font, rehabilitated for use as an indoor garden water feature.
[ATTACH]7319[/ATTACH]
Here’s the altar with a good plaster reredos.
[ATTACH]7320[/ATTACH]
And some lovely glass
[ATTACH]7321[/ATTACH][ATTACH]7322[/ATTACH]
Large version; http://www.flickr.com/photos/58086761@N00/2442210149/sizes/l/in/photostream/
Looks like every window has protective glazing
[ATTACH]7323[/ATTACH][ATTACH]7324[/ATTACH]
Very nice glass and an interesting early Rose window. I amnot sure however that glass with expansive scenes is quite appropriate for a winndow of this type and era. Smaller panels would seem to be the thing. Any photograph of the facade?
@ake wrote:
here’s one http://www.flickr.com/photos/tedhoyne/2422759993/
Thanks Ake. What an interesting Round Tower.
The architect of St. Mary’s Thomastown wasJJ. McCarthy. The church was built between 1869-1872. Jeanne Sheehy notes that McCarthy re-used the altar from Jerpoint Abbey in his original scheme for the church. Apparently, that altar has disappeared. As to the font, presumably this was another authentic Gothic element of McCarthy’s scheme perhaps also from Jerpoint or some other local mediaval ruin. It really is a disgrace beyond words to see this font used as a flower box.
@Praxiteles wrote:
The architect of St. Mary’s Thomastown wasJJ. McCarthy. The church was built between 1869-1872. Jeanne Sheehy notes that McCarthy re-used the altar from Jerpoint Abbey in his original scheme for the church. Apparently, that altar has disappeared. As to the font, presumably this was another authentic Gothic element of McCarthy’s scheme perhaps also from Jerpoint or some other local mediaval ruin. It really is a disgrace beyond words to see this font used as a flower box.
Interesting. It has a few similarities to the group of large medieval churches in Ossory, (Thomastown, Gowran, Kilkenny) which Stalley talks about in one of his books. Lancets at both ends rather than the usual single large traceried window usually present – it doesn’t seem to pay any homage to Jerpoint as far as I can see, even though they used it’s altar.
I notice Pugin’s church in Ramsgrange meanwhile, has elements present in the neaby Cistercian Dunbrody – specifically the triple lancets.
The use of elements from medieval buildings or indeed the incorporation of the remains of medieval buildings into neo-gothic churches represents a phase of the Gothic revival that pre-dates Pugin and was all part of the drive towards achieving authenticity. An early eample of this is the east elevation of St. Mary’s, Buttevant, Co. Cork (1832) which incorporates a mediavel urban tower with the neo-Gothic stone work imitating the 14th century prototype and incorpoprating smaller decorative elements from the adjacent 13th century Franciscan Friary. Pugin, however, brought the drive to authenticity to a fine art and often installed medieval fixtures and fittings bought in France and the Low Countries. It should come as small surprise taht JJ McCarthy should have pursued the authenticity drives by installing available local medieval examples.
On the subject of authenticity, if memory serves me correctly, the High Altar in St. Mary’s Cathedral in Limerick is the original altar of the Cathedral. It was discovered buried in the grounds of the Cathedral during works in th 19th century -having been dragged out by the Cromwellian iconoclasts. Perhaps someone could verify that.
@Praxiteles wrote:
On the subject of authenticity, if memory serves me correctly, the High Altar in St. Mary’s Cathedral in Limerick is the original altar of the Cathedral. It was discovered buried in the grounds of the Cathedral during works in th 19th century -having been dragged out by the Cromwellian iconoclasts. Perhaps someone could verify that.
Yes I believe that’s correct. I also recall it being said of it that it’s one of the longest surviving medieval altar tops in Ireland or Britain. Currently there’s a beautiful celtic tapestry hung on the altar face;
http://www.flickr.com/photos/58086761@N00/1535228887/sizes/l/in/set-72157602353759472/
It’s interesting that, although the reredos is beautiful and well-mannered, it looks so Victorian compared to its immediate surroundings; there seems also to be a quandary about what to do with the furniture. The three (Jacobean?) chairs look really out of place place behind the altar and the chairs on either side look completely superfluous. The altar frontal, though beautiful as well, looks literally tacked on.
On my one visit to St Mary’s it was in the throes of a ‘reordering’ which seemed especially brutal and disorientating. Has that now all settled down? Where have the superb medieval choir-stalls with misericords ended up?@ake wrote:
Yes I believe that’s correct. I also recall it being said of it that it’s one of the longest surviving medieval altar tops in Ireland or Britain. Currently there’s a beautiful celtic tapestry hung on the altar face;
http://www.flickr.com/photos/58086761@N00/1535228887/sizes/l/in/set-72157602353759472/
I think it is the largest altar mensa in Ireland cut from a single block of stone. The major revival influence in Limerick’s St. Mary’s Cathedral was the Anglican Bishop John Jebb.
@Praxiteles wrote:
The use of elements from medieval buildings or indeed the incorporation of the remains of medieval buildings into neo-gothic churches represents a phase of the Gothic revival that pre-dates Pugin and was all part of the drive towards achieving authenticity. An early eample of this is the east elevation of St. Mary’s, Buttevant, Co. Cork (1832) which incorporates a mediavel urban tower with the neo-Gothic stone work imitating the 14th century prototype and incorpoprating smaller decorative elements from the adjacent 13th century Franciscan Friary. Pugin, however, brought the drive to authenticity to a fine art and often installed medieval fixtures and fittings bought in France and the Low Countries. It should come as small surprise taht JJ McCarthy should have pursued the authenticity drives by installing available local medieval examples.
There is at least one example of Pugin installing medieval elements in Ireland. His holy water stoup at the public entrance to the chapel of the former Presentation Convent, Waterford, is composed of medieval fragments. Sadly, the right side has been mutilated by part of a later porch and the pipe at the left doesn’t add much either.
@Antipodes wrote:
There is at least one example of Pugin installing medieval elements in Ireland. His holy water stoup at the public entrance to the chapel of the former Presentation Convent, Waterford, is composed of medieval fragments. Sadly, the right side has been mutilated by part of a later porch and the pipe at the left doesn’t add much either.
Agreed!
@Antipodes wrote:
There is at least one example of Pugin installing medieval elements in Ireland. His holy water stoup at the public entrance to the chapel of the former Presentation Convent, Waterford, is composed of medieval fragments. Sadly, the right side has been mutilated by part of a later porch and the pipe at the left doesn’t add much either.
interesting. So I see they’re going ahead with turning the Convent into a private medical ‘centre’ or whatever they call it. I haven’t kept informed about it, so I wonder what will happen the chapel? We all know being a protected structure means less than nothing nowadays, when private enterprise is involved.
This year is the centerary of the birth of Giovannino Guareschi – the creator of the fictional character Don Camillo. In the middle of the Don Camillo novels, Praxiteles came across this which could have been written about the state of affairs in Cobh: …two days later, the Bishop’s secretary plunged into Don Camillo’s office. The young priest, like all the progressive priests of the Aggiornamento, despised and detested all parish priests…
“Reverend Father!” he ranted. “Is it possible that you lie in wait for opportunities to show your obtuseness as regards political and social matters involving the Church? What is the meaning of this latest sideshow of yours? Quite rightly Mayor Botazzi intends to encourage tourism and adapt the town to the needs of the motorized times — and to do this he wants to create an ample parking lot here in the square. How can you have the arrogance to oppose this project?”
“No arrogance at all: I’m simply preventing the destruction of Church property.”
“What Church property! You can’t clutter half a town square with useless columns. Don’t you understand what an advantage it will be to you? Aren’t you aware that many people don’t come to Mass because they can’t find a place to park their cars?”
“Certainly I know that,” Don Camillo answered calmly. “However, I don’t believe the mission of a pastor of souls should be to organize parking lots and rock Masses to provide the public with a religion complete with all the modern conveniences. The Christian religion is not, and should not be, either comfortable or amusing.”
His point of view was a bit hackneyed and it caused the Bishop’s priest to explode. “My dear Father, you appear not to have grasped that the Church must attempt to bring itself up to date, and it should be helping progress, not blocking it!”
…
There was no point in arguing with such an old fossil, so the secretary wound up the discussion. “Don Camillo, are you saying that you refuse to obey?”“No, if his excellency the Bishop orders us to transform the colonnade into a parking lot, we will do so, even though the Council has reasserted that the Church of Christ is the Church of the poor people and consequently should not have to worry about the cars of the faithful.”
…
“Comrade Mayor,” the priest explained humbly, “we have noted that for quite a few years now your Party has involved itself with enormous love and devotion in the major and minor problems of the Church. We would simply like to request that you and several of your comrades be present at the farewell ceremony for our precious crucifix, which after three hundred and fifty years of honorable service to our town is being moved to the city to a fine new home in the Bishop’s palace.”Peppone leapt out of his chair. “You’re out of your mind, Father! That crucifix is a work of art, and it belongs to this town! And it stays in this town!”
Don Camillo spread out his arms. “I know, Mr. Mayor. The problem is, however, that I have to answer to my Bishop, and not to your Party. Therefore I will have to hand the crucifix and altar over to the Bishop’s secretary. I’m well aware that the Christ is a major part of the artistic and spiritual heritage of the town and that it’s place should always be the one it’s occupied for the last three hundred and fifty years — on top of that altar in front of which you and so many others took Holy Communion and were united in Holy Matrimony, in front of which your mother prayed while you were fighting in the war — your poor old parish priest understands all this, but all h can do is obey orders. And he will obey them unless of course he is threatened with violence. Because threatened with violence, what can a poor old parish priest do? Comrade Mayor, I beg of you, explain my plight to your superiors, and remember my position yourself, and realize that nobody could be more distressed at what I must do than I am.”
“Father,” Peppone shouted, “if you think I’m going to sit still for this, you’re out of your mind!”
Peppone was serious and the next morning the town walls were papered with mammoth posters denouncing the planned abduction and ending in two lines of big, bold lettering:
THE CHRIST IS OURS
NOBODY TOUCHES OUR CHRISTTowards midday Don Camillo, who wasn’t the slightest bit disturbed by the position Peppone had taken, calmly pedaled off to the private chapel in the old manor house lost in the countryside — and there a rude surprise awaited him. The toughest of Peppone’s thugs were camping out in his garden full of weeds, passing the time pulling them up.
“You realize this is private property and I could have you prosecuted for trespassing?” Don Camillo said… .
“Oh yes, father.”
“May I go inside to wrap up the Christ and the pieces of the altar?” Don Camillo asked.
“You can go inside, but you’re not wrapping up anything. You’re a priest, not a freight despatcher.”
“Well, I certainly don’t want to break union rules,” said Don Camillo, bicycling off towards town.
…
A committee comprised of representatives from all the political parties and associations traveled to the city and made the Bishop give them an audience, during which Peppone voiced the respectful but adamant protest of the town’s citizens. The Bishop heard all he had to say and then held out his hands smiling.“But this is all a misunderstanding,” he said. “There is nothing to prevent the altar returning to the place it has always been. The Mass can be celebrated in the new way in front of it, and the townspeople will have the additional inspiration of its exceptional artistic and spiritual merits. That is, provided that the parish priest has no valid reasons to oppose the restitution of the altar. The decision rests entirely with him.”
When the committee went to tell Don Camillo what the Bishop had decreed, Don Camillo answered humbly: “We are fully prepared to carry out the wishes of our Bishop.”
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