reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches
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Prax: yes, I’m aware of that and there’s no point in being too prescriptive about hese things. However, I thought the ‘fuller’ style of chasuble was more attractive and of better quality and design (generally speaking). The modern trend towards flimsy chasubles (usually white, for some obscure reason) with absurd design details is not a progressive trend (or perhaps it is, if you know what I mean). I’d prefer a ‘fiddle-back’ to any of these. Lace I’ve never liked and the sheer crispness of lawn vestments in an Anglican seeting has for me always been preferable; I’ll accept as a compromise a discreet amount of embroidery around the sleeve or hem, but that’s about it (I know I sound like a fashionista, but believe me I’m not!).
Did you notice that the acolytes were wearing ‘monastic’-style albs – where were the cassocks and cottas?
At Easter, I went to mass at the church of OL and St Cumin at Loch Morar – delightful spot with a beautiful late 19th C church with a miniature round tower. The interior is reasonably intact (although the beutiful carved wooden altar rail has been vandalised) andthe service was low-key and eccentric, but it makes me think there’s still some hope there!The following is the official announcement posted on the Cloyne Diocesan webpage re the Tridentine Mass celebrated in Cobh Cathedral last Tuesday. It makes for some interesting reading:
Celebration of Holy Mass
in accordance with the Motu Proprio “Summorum Pontificum”
of Pope Benedict XVI.Mass was celebrated in the Cathedral of Saint Colman in Cobh on Easter Tuesday at 12 noon according to the extraordinary Rite promulgated by Blessed John XXIII in 1962 .
The Celebrant of the Mass was His Lordship, the Most Reverend John Magee, Bishop of Cloyne. The assistant Priest was the V. Rev. Michael Leamy, Administrator of the Cathedral. The Master of Ceremonies was the Rev. Robin Morrissey, M.C. to the Bishop.
The Cathedral Choir was under the Direction of its Director, Mr. Dominic Finn. A team of Cathedral Altar Servers served the Mass.In accordance with the Norms laid down by the Bishop of Cloyne, following the promulgation of the Motu Proprio “Summorum Pontificum”, all Parish Priests will respond to any request from a group of faithful of their Parish to have the extraordinary Rite of Holy Mass celebrated in their Parish. This will be done for pastoral reasons.
The Mass celebrated in the Cathedral of Saint Colman on Easter Tuesday was in response to a Diocesan request.
And some further comments on recent events in Cobh Cathedral:
http://img166.imageshack.us/my.php?image=articleirishtimesjb7.png
@johnglas wrote:
No regrets at the return of the ‘new’ old rite, but ‘fiddle-back’ chasubles and lace-edged albs? I seem to remember that pre-Vat II there had been a liturgical revival which involved (inter alia) a return to fuller (‘Gothic’) chasubles and plainer albs (‘alb’ = (plain) white). My secondary school church history book (c. early 1960s) – not an unconservative tome by any means – referred to gold braid and lace (and, by implication, fiddle-back chasubles) as ’18th century bad taste’. It wasn’t wrong.
If we can move beyond these doctrinaire reflections on high fashion in church, just for a moment, could someone kindly explain to Rhabanus where the seventh candlestick was to be found during Bishop Magee’s Mass according to the extraordinary form or usus antiquior?
Perhaps Rhabanus’ eyesight is failing, or perhaps a wider shot may have revealed a seventh candle on one of the sides. It seems simpler and more dramatic, though, to place the seventh candlestick behind the central crucifix.
Ordo Romanus I mentions the placement of the seven candlesticks on the floor before the altar at St Mary Major. That was around A.D. 700. Once retables and reredoses formed the background to most altars located close to the eastern wall, rather than under the triumphal arch or over the confessio as in many of the great Roman basilicas, the candlestaicks were mounted on the gradines. A seventh candlestick could easily have been placed behind the crucifix in Cobh Cathedral for that occasion.
rhabanus: I thought we were supposed to be beyond this: my answer to Prax did contain the phrase ‘you cannot be too prescriptive’ which is not doctrinaire. Since your post contained no direct reference to my post, I can conclude that the quote was only to make a snide point, which is a dishonourable form of ‘argument’.Your comment as usual floundered in erudite obscurity.
@johnglas wrote:
rhabanus: I thought we were supposed to be beyond this: my answer to Prax did contain the phrase ‘you cannot be too prescriptive’ which is not doctrinaire. Since your post contained no direct reference to my post, I can conclude that the quote was only to make a snide point, which is a dishonourable form of ‘argument’.Your comment as usual floundered in erudite obscurity.
If yuo are referring tot he question of the seventh candle, then I would not agree with Jonglas that we are dealing with erudite obscurity. It was prescribed by the Council of Trent and denotes jurisdiction.
@Praxiteles wrote:
If yuo are referring tot he question of the seventh candle, then I would not agree with Jonglas that we are dealing with erudite obscurity. It was prescribed by the Council of Trent and denotes jurisdiction.
Rhabanus’ eyesight did fail him. A seventh candle can be seen protruding from between the first and second candlesticks from the crucifix on the Epistle side of the altar. The angle of the photograph, though, makes the candle appear to have been plunked down on the altar, whereas it likely was in a proper candlestick. Nevertheless, it might have been placed to full effect in a more prominent/dramatic position, e.g. directly behind the crucifix even if supported by a pedestal or stand directly behind the altar, or else at the end of the altar; in other owrds, ,in a more obvious position. So a mea culpa for that oversight.
On the other hand, Rhabanus failed to spot a maniple either on the left hand of the bishop or laid aside on the open page of the missal (which might have been the case if His Lordship were on his way to the pulpit to preach).
Rhabanus cares not a stitch whether the maniple be made of damask or moire. Such considerations he leaves to the liturgical haberdashers and those preoccupied with sartorial concerns and time on their hands. [Incredibly, some institutions in North America award doctoral degrees in “fabric.”] Rhabanus, though, prefers to see “the armour of God” worn in full panoply. Although the GIRM of 1970 stated “Manipulus omitti potest,” the maniple is prescribed in MR 1962.
Do pardon any erudite obscurities, together with the other “usual” shortcomings (e.g. Romanism, ultramontanism, doll-worship, unregenerative orthodoxy, etc.), not to mention dishonourable forms of argument. One is bound to commit the occasional solecism when daring to soar among the omniscient.
@Praxiteles wrote:
If yuo are referring tot he question of the seventh candle, then I would not agree with Jonglas that we are dealing with erudite obscurity. It was prescribed by the Council of Trent and denotes jurisdiction.
The seventh candle was ‘freestanding’ and was moved to each side of the altar by the assistant priest at different times during the Mass.
@lawyer wrote:
The seventh candle was ‘freestanding’ and was moved to each side of the altar by the assistant priest at different times during the Mass.
I think you are referring to the bougie, which is another matter altogether.
The Building News ~ May.15th.1891
Church of the Advent ~ Boston, Massachusetts ~ United States
~ New Reredos by Messrs. Ernest George & Peto@ake wrote:
I only hope for a day when the seventh candlestick shall be our greatest concern.
I thoroughly agree with that sentiment.
@Praxiteles wrote:
I thoroughly agree with that sentiment.
More arcana from the vault of erudite obscurantism:
“The custom of placing lighted candles on our altars goes back, probably, only to about the eleventh century – before which time they were left standing in tall candlesticks on the floor of the sanctuary, or in brackets affixed to the walls.
At Masses, candles are used as follows: At a solemn Mass six are lighted on the altar. At a “Missa Cantata,” sung by one priest, four are sufficient. At a Pontifical Mass, sung by a bishop in his own diocese, seven are lighted. Four are used at a bishop’s private Mass, and two at all other Masses. These rules, however, do not prohibit the use of more candles on occasions of special solemnity. Bishops and certain other prelates have the right to use a reading-candle, called a “bugia,” at their Masses.
At Vespers, six candles are lighted on the more solemn feasts; four only will suffice on other days. In the processions to the sanctuary before solemn services two candles are borne by acolytes, and these are also carried to do honor to the chanting of the Gospel and to the singing of certain parts of Vespers.” John F. Sullivan, The Externals of the Catholic Church: Her Government, Ceremonies, Festivals, Sacramentals, and Devotions, 3rd ed. (New York: P.J. Kenedy and Sons, 1918), p. 184.
The seven candlesticks mentioned in Ordo Romanus I represented the seven ecclesiastical districts of Rome mentioned in OR I, 1. Interested readers may consult the Ordines Romani compiled and edited by Michel Andrieu, or the Latin-English edition of Cuthbert Atchley.
Medieval (Gothic) interpretation of the seven candlesticks suggested a taste for allegory: the seven-fold gift of the Holy Spirit, which the bishop was presumed to have in its fullness and which he would impart in such rites as Confirmation and Holy Orders.
Early Roman Christians were not particularly prone to allegorical interpretation as were Christians of the Gallic and Gothic regions, as Edmund Bishop points out in “The Genius of the Roman Rite,” Liturgica Historica (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1918), p.10:
“The true Roman cannot forget his dignity. The thing had to be done, and it was done in a plain and simple but the most practical manner. It is all only and simply practical. There are rites and times we know of that would have encompassed the act with symbolism and shrouded it in mystery. Mystery never flourished in the clear Roman atmosphere, and symbolism was no product of the Roman religious mind. Christian symbolism is not of Roman birth, nor a native product of the Roman spirit.”
For more details on the history and meaning of the altar, see Cyril E. Pockne, The Christian Altar: Its History and Today (Oxford: Mowbray, 1963).
Lawyer!
Here is a little note I came across illustrating a bugia or palmatoria used for Pontifical Masses. As you can see, it closely resembles the one used in Cobh last Tuesday – although I did not have the opportunity to inspect the one used in Cobh, I suspect that it was one given by the parish of Lemlara to Bishop Ahern in 1957 to commemorate his consecration (he came from that parish). If so, then it was made by WIlliam Egan of Cork and is a rather fine example of their late celtic revival silver work.
@Praxiteles wrote:
Would anyone like to hazard a guess as to what this building might be?
Let me take three guesses:
a) The ecclesiastical gaol-cum-boobie-hatch for avant-garde liturgists. Let’s just call it the terminal degree in Liturgical Experimentation. Note the high diving-board on the far left for those who have not yet gone over the deep end. The padding around the interior of the cage walls comes all the way down during the night and outside visiting hours.
b) The new cathedral for the Diocese of Bugtussle, Oklahoma.
c) “The Beguinage” – the latest concept in convent living for activist nuns on the run. A green wall featuring “man-eating” plants is to be installed on the north wall as the last word in eco-feminism and social justice. The plants naturally do not eat women or womankind. No affirmative action planned here. Enter at own risk.
Well, believe it or not, this is the Herz-Jesu Kirche (or Sacred Heart Church) at Neuhausen in Muncih. Unfortunately, these pictures do not allow us a view of the yrban context into which it has been inserted.
http://www.tauber.de/files/engl/projekte/herz-jesu.htm
http://www.floornature.de/articoli/articolo.php?id=227&lang=en&sez=3
http://www.herzjesu-muenchen.de/index3.html
http://eng.archinform.net/projekte/9561.htm
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herz-Jesu-Kirche_%28M%C3%BCnchen%29
No comment (but what about the ‘door’, i.e. wall?). I note that the ‘owner’ is described as the ‘Pfarramt’ and the ‘Pfarrkirchenstiftung’ – the congregation actually owns (and manages) the building! Could Cobh ever cope wwith this?
@johnglas wrote:
No comment (but what about the ‘door’, i.e. wall?). I note that the ‘owner’ is described as the ‘Pfarramt’ and the ‘Pfarrkirchenstiftung’ – the congregation actually owns (and manages) the building! Could Cobh ever cope wwith this?
I would not equate “Pfarrkirchenstifung” and “Congregation”. “Pfarrkirchenstiftung” denotes juridical personality inhering in the “parish” qua legal entity rather than the “parish” qua community of the faithful or congregation. In Cobh and in Ireland in general, and I suspect in Scotland, Catholic entities such as parishes or dioceses have no legal personality in themselves.
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