reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches

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  • #767614
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    The Franciscan Abbey at Multyfarnham, Co. Westmeath 1268

    Another example of a medieval church in Catholic use is Multyfarnham Abbey. It was roofless from 1650 to 1827.

    Multyfarnham Franciscan Friary
    Multyfarnham
    Westmeath.
    Description

    Irish history.

    In the present friary church parts of a 15th century church survive, including the nave, south transept and tower, as well as the south window (though not its glass). Nothing remains of the chancel or of the original domestic buildings. The church was given its present form in 1827 when the Franciscans returned to their old monastery. The church was refurbished in 1976.

    This last sentence sounds ominous.

    #767615
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    6. The Cahpel of Gormanstown Castle, Co. Meath, 1687

    To round off the tour of churches in continuous Catholic use, mention should be made of the Chapel on the Preston estate at Gormanstown Castle which was built by the Viscount Goranstown in 1687 for Catholic use. It remained in such use until 1947 when the estate was bought by the Franciscans who promptly demolished what was probably the only pre-18th. Catholic estate chapel in the country!

    #767616
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    Does anybody know anything of the influence this gentleman may or may not have had on E.W. Pugin’s preference for French Gothic?

    DIDRON, ADOLPHE NAPOLEON (1806-1867), French archaeologist, was born at Hautvillers, in the department of Marne, on the i3th of March 1806. At first a student of law, he began in 1830, by the advice of Victor Hugo, a study of the Christian archaeology of the middle ages. After visiting and examining the principal churches, first of Normandy, then of central and southern France, he was on his return appointed by Guizot secretary to the Historical Committee of Arts and Monuments (1835); and in the following years he delivered several courses of lectures on Christian iconography at the Bibliotheque Royale. In 1839 he visited Greece for the purpose of examining the art of the Eastern Church, both in its buildings and its manuscripts. In 1844 he originated the Annales archeologiques, a periodical devoted to his favorite subject, which he edited until his death. In 1845 he established at Paris a special archaeological library, and at the same time a manufactory of painted glass. In the same year he was admitted to the Legion of Honor. His most important work is the Iconographie chretienne, of which, however, the first portion only, Histoirede Dieu (1843), was published. It was translated into English by E. J. Millington. Among his other works may be mentioned the Manuel d’icono-graphie chrelienne grecque et latine (1845), the Iconographie des chapiteaux du palais ducal de Venise (1857), and the Manuel des objets de bronze et d’orfevrerie (1859). He died on the i3th of November 1867.

    #767617
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    #767618
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    Didron’s Iconographie Chrétienne

    #767619
    MacLeinin
    Participant

    Glass attributed to Adolphe-Napoleon Didron

    Rentrée de la procession de la châsse de sainte Geneviève
    Chapelle Sainte-Geneviève
    Artist : Adolphe-Napoléon Didron

    Lieu : Notre-Dame de Paris, Chapelle Saint-Georges
    Artiste original : Louis Charles Auguste Steinheil
    Artistes : Eugène Oudinot, Adolphe-Napoléon Didron

    #767620
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    Praxileles

    A Rege saeculorum immortali et invisibili qui redempturus mundum hominum historiam intravit pro festis venturis ac novi anni principio divinae gratiae ubertatem Vobis omnibus exoptat.

    #767621
    Gianlorenzo
    Participant

    🙂 And so say all of us.

    #767622
    Gianlorenzo
    Participant

    A blessed Christmas to all. Some seasonal images.
    🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

    #767623
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    Given what has previously been said about Richard Hurley’s reordering of the North Cathedral, it was perhaps easy to understand how the carols concert, broadcast by RTE 1 on Christmas Eve, went off so well. It clearly indicated just how much RH has managed to de-sacralize the building reducing it to a gaudy vaudeville music hall!!!!!!!!!!! If anything, those giant candles used for the stage props were an improvement on the place. I suppose the scattering of the benedictional candelabra around the mise en scene was indtnded to add a slightly religious flavour to the gig. The (canned ?) applause added an air of authenticity. The black tie seemed a little off for the occasion. The presence of the pro-Vicerene and the Mayor of Cork belied a separation of Church and State. The whole affair was well summed up at the end by the appearance of My Lord of Cork, Nazerene like, in a very fetching blue ganasi. This was everything that should not not be. Thank God, Tom Colton had more sense.

    #767624
    anto
    Participant

    bit harsh there, hardly vaudeville! I take it you don’t approve of concerts/recitals in churches/cathedrals?

    btw have you heard the Jesuitchurch in Limerick is closing the one on the Cresent?

    http://www.jesuit.ie/layjay/Apr%20II%20’05.htm

    #767625
    GrahamH
    Participant

    Had to grin while watching that – just knew Praxiteles would be sitting at home fuming, shredding the sofa with his fingernails 🙂

    #767626
    MacLeinin
    Participant

    Anto. Not harsh, just reality. A church is what it is; it is not a concert hall, it was never meant to be one.
    Why is it so hard for people to understand that for those who believe a church, any church, has a meaning beyond the secural understanding of what a building is.

    To be continued at a later date.

    For now I would like to wish everyone a very happy,prosperous and stimulating New Year.
    PS. Thank you all for a great 2005

    #767627
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    Re posting 411: Praxiteles has no difficulty with the idea of the “Concerto di Natale” of “di Mezzonotte” and very much appreciates Albinone, Allegri, Bach and, indeed, Handel. The problem is when the idea is confounded with something else and we find a heap of codswollop called a “Concerto di Natale”. Will be back to this subject later on. Have a prosperous New Year, Anto.

    #767628
    R.Larkin
    Participant

    @Praxiteles wrote:

    The Pro-Cathedral Church of the Conception of the Virgin Mary was built on the site of Lord Annsley’s town house at Marlborough Street and Elephant Lane, which had been acquired by Archbishop Thomas Troy in 1803 for £5,100. The building commenced in 1814 and was completed in November 1825. Plans for a church in the revivalist Greek Doric style, submitted by an architect who signed himself “P”, won the commission. It is accepted that the architect was George Papworth (1781-1855). Born in London, he moved to Ireland in 1806, and won commissions for Grattan Bridge, King’s (Heuston) Bridge (1828), Camolin Park, Wexford (1815), the Dublin Library in D’Olier Street (1818-1820) and Sir Patrick Dunn’s Hospital and was eventually Professor of Architecture in the Royal Hibernian Academy. The Pro-Cathedral contains monuments to Cardinal Paul Cullen and his immediate predecessor Archbishop Daniel Murray by Thomas Farrell. The apse is decorated by an alto-relief of the Ascension by John Smyth. Thomas Kirk (1781-1845) supplied a monument for the Reverend Thomas Clarke: two figures of Religion and Charity bewteen an urn which was his first exhibited work at the Society of Artists (as Piety and Chastity) in 1813. A relief of the Good Shepherd and a monument to William and Anne Byly are also attributed to Kirk. The organ is by the Dublin organbuilder John White. Its present architectural case was build by WIlliam Hill c. 1900. The great artistic treasure of the Pro-Cathedral, however, was the High Altar by Peter Turnerelli (1774-1839). Born in Belfast, Turnerelli had been deeply influenced by Canova (who much admired Turnerelli’s bust of Grattan (1812). From 1798-1803 drawing master to the princesses of George III, he was appointed Sculptor in ordinary in 1801. While his busts of George III, Washington and Wellington (1815), Louis XVIII (1816), Henry Grattan (1812 and Daniel O’Connell (1829) are well known, his master piece was the High Altar of the Pro-Cathedral with its splendidly proportioned mensa, reredos and ciborium. In 1886, rather incongrously, three stained-glass windows were installed behind the High Altar. Archbishop Dermot Ryan introduced a reordering to the Pro-Cathedral in the late 1970s. The architect for the re-ordering was Professor Cathal O’Neill . In an act beggering civilized belief, he demolished Turnerelli’s High Altar and reredos. The praedella of the altar mensa was salvaged and re-used to form a new altar erected on a lower plain in a hum drum extended sanctuary covered with carpet. The neo-classical altar rails were removed. The canopied and dignified neo-classical Throne was dismantled. The pulpit was reduced to the redundancy of a side aisle and a few surviving vestiges of the High Altar scattered about the interior. The Ciborium of Turnerelli’s High Altar was conserved and placed on a squat disproportioned plinth on a lower plain. The result has been the complete loss of the graceful, proportioned, symetrically articulated dimensions of the Apse and of the building itself which now lacks a central focus and suffers from the same focal void as Longford and Thurles. It seem strange that nobody seems to have realized that the High Altar was custom built to a location it occupied for 150 years. Attempts to relieve the focal void by drapery have not been convincing. It is suggested that at the time of the reordering, the significance of the High Altar and its provenance may not have been known to the architect responsible for its demolition. In Irish circumstances, the destruction of such a major work of art may possibly have cultural significance not too dissimilar to the bombing of Monte Cassino or the feuerblitzing of the Frauenkirche in Dresden.

    Hi Praxiteles,
    Just registered. Wonderful information on the Cathedrals. Many thanks. I wondered whether the image of the sculptor was Turnerelli? For one exciting moment I thought it might be John Smyth (c1773-1840) on whom I am doing M.A. research. As you mentioned he executed the Ascension in the Pro. Have you come across any image of him? I feel that this Ascension is somewhat unsatisfying when viewed from the door. Do you think that the reordering of the sanctuary might have accentuated this impression? Anything on John Smyth from anyone would be most welcome.
    R.Larkin

    #767629
    GrahamH
    Participant

    Maybe you could answer R.Larkin – did John Smyth ever live up to his father’s skill and reputation? Often thought he must have been a hard act to follow 🙂

    Who was the finer sculptor of the two do you think? What other work in Ireland is his, as you never hear much about him aside from the GPO and Pro, unlike Edward who crops up everywhere! Thanks.

    #767630
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    If Mosaic 1 is viewing, please note that he should look at Charleville and possibly Killmallock churches as both contain moaisc work most probably by Ludwig Oppenheimer. I have some photogrtaphs and will post same soon,

    #767631
    POM
    Participant
    MacLeinin wrote:
    Anto. Not harsh, just reality. A church is what it is]

    Do you believe a church is limited in its function as a place of ceremony? Does it not – should it not have a broader function to fill?

    #767632
    MacLeinin
    Participant

    Dear POM,
    I believe that a Church is the House of God and a place for Worship, and these functions are what differentiates a Church from any other communal meeting place. Without the element of the Sacred it would not be a Church therefore to regard churches as mere buildings is to effectively de-consecrate them. I know that some Modernist Liturgists would disagree with this as they think a Church should have multiple functions, but this is a very new idea and does not, I believe, have the support of the vast majority of Churchgoers.
    Most buildings are constructed with a particular function in mind, for example, a hospital, a bank, a theatre, a community centre and they are expected to fulfil their particular functions, but one does not expect a hospital to function as a bank or theatre, or conversely one does not expect a bank to function as a hospital or community centre. Why then should a building constructed for the very specific purpose of worship be expected to fulfil the function of a theatre or community centre?

    #767633
    anto
    Participant

    @Praxiteles wrote:

    If Mosaic 1 is viewing, please note that he should look at Charleville and possibly Killmallock churches as both contain moaisc work most probably by Ludwig Oppenheimer. I have some photogrtaphs and will post same soon,

    Happy new year to you too, Praxiteles. Would love to hear something about the churches in Kilmallock and Charleville as I’m from the area. I was in Kilmallock last Sunday and it’s a beautiful church. Good choir there too.

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