reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches
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St. Joseph’s Church Liscarroll, Co. Cork
Readers will be aware that this little country church has been the object of the vandalistic intentions of the Cloyne HACK for almost two years now. Not in the least deterred by the trouncing meated out to the HACK at the Midleton Oral Hearing on Cobh Cathedral, the HACK was back in form to propose a series of wreckovative measures for the interior of this church.
Danny Murphy produced another document. This was hyper-imaginatively called Liturgical Requirements St Joseph’s Church Liscarroll, Co. Cork: Context and Text. In the middle of the extraordinary compilation there is an even more extraordinary declaration: In view of the liturgical requirements of the Catholic Church for the purposes of a more informed, participative and fruitful celebration of its Liturgy, judgement is made for the reordering of St. Joseph’s Church, Liscarroll, Co. Cork in the following terms. Praxiteles was at a total loss to know what this was all about…it was practically the presage of an execution warrant and ensuing death sentence. However, while mentioning the expression in conversation, Praxiteles was enlighted: it apparently comes from a soap opera called Judge Judy, an American live court series dealing with petty claims. It seems she concludes her hearings with a cant phrase to the same tenor. Well, this came as a relief! It appears that the oevreducated liturgists on the Cloyne HACK spend a lot of their time watching Judge Judy on the television -and they have all the signs of it.
Cork County Council granted permission with only one major condition -that a covered skip be used to ferry away the interior of the church. It looks as if the Council was in a bit of rush to have this planning application off of its hands. Again, as with Cobh Cathedral, who should not crawl out from under the stones but our old feinds from that debacle McCutcheon and Mulcahy.
Help is to hand. An appeal has been lodged with An Bord Pleanala no. 227722. This promises to be Cobh all over again in a scaled down version. Watch this spot!!
St. Joesph’s Church, Liscarroll, Co. Cork
Reading through the file which has now ben made available, some extraordinary little bits and pieces are already beginning to fall out of the tree:
1. Cork County Council granted a declaration to repair the doors of the church. WIthout declaration or planning permission, the main doors have disappeared and have been replaced by a pair of new doors. So far, no prosecution has been taken by the indolent enforcement officer of Cork County Council.
2. Extensive “repair” works are currently going on at the church. The exterior walls have all be beautifully re-pointed with gorgeous raised straps or bands. The re-pointing material is in the hardest available cement to ensure that no water will get into the church – and, more importantly, to ensure that no water will every get OUT either. A beautiful conservation move taht -why bother with lime mortar when there loads of cement about. Again, no complaint from Cork County Council -after all, it is just another old protected structure.
3. Cork County Coucnil was very willing to oblige the powers taht be here. Not only have they granted declarations and turned blind eyes to blatant breaches of the Planninga and Development Act, but IN ADDITION to the present grant of permission to wreck the interior, Cork County Council again rushed out at break-neck deference to grant another permission last year to build a meeting hall in the curtilege of the church and to connect the meeting hall to the church by DEMOLISHING the entie south gable of the sacristy – an original part of an original structure that happens to be a protected structure. Needless to say, the Council was not too concerned to establish the exceptionality of the circumstances that permitted it to grant planning permission for demolition of part of a protected structure.
Given all this, Cork County Council seems bent on ensuring that precious little will be left of this protected structure either inside or outside by the time it is finished.
Prax; Your dedication to his as usual can merit only admiration. As a planner I’m bemused by the attitude of the council, although I do remember an old colleague of mine advising that ‘you never argue with the church’ (in this case the C of S), or words to that effect. But there seems little excuse for that here – it looks like a perfectly decent vernacular church which deserves conservation, i.e. neither preservation (as in aspic) nor wreckovation. Any pics of the interior?
@Praxiteles wrote:
St. Joesph’s Church, Liscarroll, Co. Cork
Reading through the file which has now ben made available, some extraordinary little bits and pieces are already beginning to fall out of the tree:
1. Cork County Council granted a declaration to repair the doors of the church. WIthout declaration or planning permission, the main doors have disappeared and have been replaced by a pair of new doors. So far, no prosecution has been taken by the indolent enforcement officer of Cork County Council.
2. Extensive “repair” works are currently going on at the church. The exterior walls have all be beautifully re-pointed with gorgeous raised straps or bands. The re-pointing material is in the hardest available cement to ensure that no water will get into the church – and, more importantly, to ensure that no water will every get OUT either. A beautiful conservation move taht -why bother with lime mortar when there loads of cement about. Again, no complaint from Cork County Council -after all, it is just another old protected structure.
3. Cork County Coucnil was very willing to oblige the powers taht be here. Not only have they granted declarations and turned blind eyes to blatant breaches of the Planninga and Development Act, but IN ADDITION to the present grant of permission to wreck the interior, Cork County Council again rushed out at break-neck deference to grant another permission last year to build a meeting hall in the curtilege of the church and to connect the meeting hall to the church by DEMOLISHING the entie south gable of the sacristy – an original part of an original structure that happens to be a protected structure. Needless to say, the Council was not too concerned to establish the exceptionality of the circumstances that permitted it to grant planning permission for demolition of part of a protected structure.
Given all this, Cork County Council seems bent on ensuring that precious little will be left of this protected structure either inside or outside by the time it is finished.
When will the rule of law return to County Cork?
This mess is what comes of the high and mighty, the movers and the shakers living in everyone else’s pockets. The collusion is worse than reprehensible. Perhaps after all Judge Judy herself should be summoned as an impartial, third-party authority to give the matter a good airing and to render judgement. It could scarcely be more ludicrous, or pompous, than the Murphy screed and its dictatorial tone. In fact, JJ might just get to the source of the corruption!!
Readers of this thread may recall Rhabanus’ remark of last summer about the hideous purple paint on the doors of Liscarroll church. His suggestion was to restore the doors to their original dignity and to give them the appropriate licks of varnish. Now, it seems, they have been replaced! And not a peep from those in positions of responsibility. O tempora! O mores!
Note that skip snuggled between the nave and the transept! Just waiting to haul away the interior of that quaint little village church.
IS THERE NO ACCOUNTABILITY??
@johnglas wrote:
Prax; Your dedication to his as usual can merit only admiration. As a planner I’m bemused by the attitude of the council, although I do remember an old colleague of mine advising that ‘you never argue with the church’ (in this case the C of S), or words to that effect. But there seems little excuse for that here – it looks like a perfectly decent vernacular church which deserves conservation, i.e. neither preservation (as in aspic) nor wreckovation. Any pics of the interior?
Yes, conservation is the word -just let it alone and carry out the necessary maintemance. Am working on some interior photographs. Will post them as soon as they are scanned.
@Praxiteles wrote:
Here is one of the interior:
Admirable the way that the communion rail lends definition to the sanctuary.
@Rhabanus wrote:
Admirable the way that the communion rail lends definition to the sanctuary.
No harm closing the gates once in a while though.
As shocking as the philsophical implications are and everything.
Well, here is an example of Judge Judy in full swing, the famous phrase is at the end:
Built in 1957 as Holy Redeemer College and designed by noted architect Barry Byrne, it was built for the Redemptionist Fathers as a teaching seminary that was affiliated with Assumption University, which later became the University of Windsor. The seminary prepared missionaries for Canada and Japan, it later evolved into a religious retreat center. It was closed in 1995 and sold to Académie Ste. Cécile International School. A.S.C. is an “interfaith international private elementary and secondary school based on Roman Catholic principals.â€
@ake wrote:
No harm closing the gates once in a while though.
As shocking as the philsophical implications are and everything.
Absolutely correct!! What happened to those gates? Where are they now? When are they to be returned? Who is responsible for their removal?
I notice that Judge Judy’s court has gates on its rails – and they certainly swing!!
@Rhabanus wrote:
Absolutely correct!! What happened to those gates? Where are they now? When are they to be returned? Who is responsible for their removal?
I notice that Judge Judy’s court has gates on its rails – and they certainly swing!!
The Liscarroll gates are still in situ – you can see them if your look carefully through the arch at either side of the gate.
The missing gates are in Kanturk – these disappeared without a declaration and without planning permission. Up to quite recently, they were still awal.
@Rhabanus wrote:
Absolutely correct!! What happened to those gates? Where are they now? When are they to be returned? Who is responsible for their removal?
I notice that Judge Judy’s court has gates on its rails – and they certainly swing!!
actually, if you look closely I think you can see the gates un-hinged, resting against the railings on the inside of the sanctuary on either side of the entrance. I’ve frequently seen this in churches, for example, in the Wexford twin churches discussed earlier.
@ake wrote:
actually, if you look closely I think you can see the gates un-hinged, resting against the railings on the inside of the sanctuary on either side of the entrance. I’ve frequently seen this in churches, for example, in the Wexford twin churches discussed earlier.
Yes, this is the latest fad adn I recall you photographs of one of the twin churches in Wexford. This is exactly what was the case in Kanturk. It has all the signs of an invitation to theft. Again, I suspect that soemwhere at the back of the Kanturk effort lukrs the likes of Hurley.
By the way, has that lecture of Richard Hurley come off yet? If not, do not forget to take the cabbages with you.
@Praxiteles wrote:
Yes, this is the latest fad adn I recall you photographs of one of the twin churches in Wexford. This is exactly what was the case in Kanturk. It has all the signs of an invitation to theft. Again, I suspect that soemwhere at the back of the Kanturk effort lukrs the likes of Hurley.
By the way, has that lecture of Richard Hurley come off yet? If not, do not forget to take the cabbages with you.
Thanks for pointing out the presence of the gates in Liscarroll.
You are right about the invitation to theft.
Perhaps after all the gates of the Kanturk sanctuary will end up in Judge Judy’s court. At least they would get some use. And they would find the right kind of protection: police surveillance.
The more I think about it, the better seems the notion of Judge Judy sorting out the wreckage and saccage of churches in Co Cork. She would certainly not mince words when dealing with the scammers and scrimshankers who seem to have risen to positions of responsibility and who seem to proliferate on various councils and boards.
Can she be seconded to Ireland as an impartial third-party authority, something like a Resident Magistrate?
Her interventions would beat the living soap operas going on in some parts of the county. And at least “judgement will be rendered.”Prax, please check to see whether Mrs Cadogan in Skebawn might be available to instruct the good judge on the peculiarites of the local situation. The judge will love Hare Island.
@Rhabanus wrote:
Thanks for pointing out the presence of the gates in Liscarroll.
You are right about the invitation to theft.
Perhaps after all the gates of the Kanturk sanctuary will end up in Judge Judy’s court. At least they would get some use. And they would find the right kind of protection: police surveillance.
Praxiteles laughed and laughed to read a report in the newspapers after Christmas recounting that the great Alwahibi’s sacrosty in Kanturk had been robbed over the holidays. The robbers apparently dismanteled the hyper-sophisticated new alarm system without any bother and broke the loock on the famously abusive new sacristy door erected without planning permission or declaration. However, the robbers did not bother with the sanctuary gates.
Praxiteles wrote:Praxiteles laughed and laughed to read a report in the newspapers after Christmas recounting that the great Alwahibi’s sacrosty in Kanturk had been robbed over the holidays. The robbers apparently dismanteled the hyper-sophisticated new alarm system without any bother and broke the loock on the famously abusive new sacristy door erected without planning permission or declaration. However, the robbers did not bother with the sanctuary gates.[/QUOTeThat’s the distressing thing about the new barbarians. They enjoy all manner of technological sophistication, but cannot distinguish art from artifice. Well, I hope that upon apprehension and imprisonment they profited from the lesson!
Was either of them by any coincidence wearing a donkey jacket?
@Rhabanus wrote:
@Praxiteles wrote:
Praxiteles laughed and laughed to read a report in the newspapers after Christmas recounting that the great Alwahibi’s sacrosty in Kanturk had been robbed over the holidays. The robbers apparently dismanteled the hyper-sophisticated new alarm system without any bother and broke the loock on the famously abusive new sacristy door erected without planning permission or declaration. However, the robbers did not bother with the sanctuary gates.[/QUOTe
That’s the distressing thing about the new barbarians. They enjoy all manner of technological sophistication, but cannot distinguish art from artifice. Well, I hope that upon apprehension and imprisonment they profited from the lesson!
Was either of them by any coincidence wearing a donkey jacket?
The newspapers did not say. They mearly concentrated on the flattened condition of the Alwahabi that his hyper-sophisticated piece of machienary could have been dismantled at c. 5 am in the morning without the slightest apparent difficulty. He was just dumbfounded by that.
No descriptions of the robbers were given -obviously- in the newspapers. Most of the space was taken up by the Alwahabi’s reaction to his purty things being all broken all over the place. If recollections serves well, the newspaper article ended up with a ritualistic wringing of hands (totally hypocritical of course) about the violation of the sanctuary etc. but completely overlooking the much more serious violation of the sanctuary pracised by the Alwahabi himself. Something doe not quite add up there.
And, I suppose, we have to acknowledge that not only robbers wear donkey jackets – as I think we are in a position to demonstrate.
And, Rhabanus, Praxiteles is not all together certain that it is just or only the robbers in Kanturk should see the klink.
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