reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches
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Santa Maria Maggiore in Tuscania in Northern Latium
This church is documented from c. 850 but its foundation may be as early as c. 590.
In front of the church today is a massive fortified belfery dating from the 13th century. This belfery is built on the remains of an earlier ecclesiastocal building which, more than likely, was probably a Baptistery.
The romanesque font, a large hexagonal vat raised on a hexagonal plinth is to-day inside the church but it may originally have been in the Baptistery.
@ake wrote:
Limerick]5956[/ATTACH]
laugh or cry?might as well just laugh.
Is this the Franciscan Church in Limerick?
The colour scheme is just appalling!!
Thurles Cathedral
This is as close to an external Baptietsry taht we have come in Ireland.
The Baptistery is located on the (liturgical) South side of the nave and is based on that of Pisa though without the peculiar conical roof of Pisa. The Pisa Baptistery, in turn, is inspired by Constantine’s Basilica of the Holy Sephercure in Jerusalem and reflects Pisa’s stiong connections with the Crusades. The Campo Santo or grave yard, for example, which also forms part of the Cathedral complex in Pisa, is filled with earth brought to Pisa from Jerusalem.
The architect was JJ McCarthy with later works carried out by G.C. Ashlin.
Renewal of the Sacrament of Baptism in Thurles Cathedral took the form of abandoing the External Baptistery which became a repository for various bits and pieces of rubblish and eventually a store house.
The positioning of a new Baptismal Font inside teh Cathedral, near to the altar exhibits all of the problematic principles underlying much of the so called “reordering” and “renewal” iof Irish churches. Prime among these is a nearly complete absence of theological thinking: if Baptism is the means by which people enter the Church, then waht are we doing with a Baptistery taht is not only already within the church but practically an annex to the sanctuary? Cleraly, the theological genius responsible for the Thurles “adaptation” did not or does not seem to realize that primitively all the non-Baptized were require to leave the nave before the Offertory of the Mass began.
Then, we have the problem of the Thurles font. Evidently. it connectsnot ihn the slightest with the Christian tradition of Baptismal fonts -of which we have seen many examples from all the main areas of the early Church- and reflects non of the rich symbolic, theological, artistic, and iconographical concerns of the Church’s tradition and understanding of Baptism. Indeed, the Gestalt of the Thurles font is more suggestive of paganism and some deeply unChristian contexts.
Those concerns are intensified by the gaping exposure of the Holy Oils -a totally farcical and voyeuristic feature fo the Thurles arrangement.
Bearing in mind the tradition of building Baptisteries that was well established by the 5th century and the theological principles underlying that tradition, the Thurles effort is just wrong on practically every point. Rather than contributig to a renewal (or renewed understanding) of the Sacrament of Baptism is exhibits a complete trivilialization of teh Sacrament and its reduction to the absurd banal.
In all, this is a television setting designed to satisfy gawkers and conveys little sense of Christian rite and next to nothing of an architectural or artistic expression of the significance of the Sacrament of Baptism.
ST. Patrick’s Cathedral, Armagh
After the vandalism of the 1980s, the Baptistery of St. Patrick’s Cathedral was abandoned.
On of the positive points of the recent re-reordering has been the the reinstatement of the original Baptistery -not, however, without some design and iconographic flaws due, it must be suspected, to a lack of Wissenshaft on the part of the liturgical advisors and architect Brian Quinn. Nevertheless, some praise must be given for the effort to restore some semblance of dignity to the administration of the Sacrament of Baptism. In this respect, Armagh is galaxies ahead of the doleful situation in Thurles.
Unlike his latterday successors, the original architect of the Baptistery cleraly knew a thing or two about how a Baptistery should be decorated and appointed. It comes as no surprise that the font is hexagonal -a form used, as we have seen, in both East and West at least since the 4/5th centuries and specifically associated with St. Ambrose -although predating him – and his famous carmen which decorated the Baptistery of Santa Tecla in Milan.
Likewise, the monumental covering of teh font is a clear allusion to the external Baptisteries of places such as Parma, Pisa and Florence as well as to the primitive practice of closing and sealing Baptisteries outside of Easter and Pentecoat. A similar monumentality is used in the cover of the Baptistery in Orvieto Cathedral.
The original architect also knew something of the primitive practice of performing Baptism outside of a church rather than in it. He provided the Armagh Baptistery with two doors: one through which access can be gained to the Baptistery from the outside -without having to enter the Cathedral proper, and the other leading into the Cathedral after the administration of the sacrament. The same arrangement is to be seen in the Baptistery in Cobh Cathedral.
Surprisingly, in the virtual tour the Cathedral on the Armagh webpage, no mention is made of the Baptistery. Is this, perhaps, a theological oversight?
Tuam Cathedral
It is difficult to ascertain where the Sacrament of Baptism is administered in Tuam Cathedral, at present. The follwoing, which is taken from the Wikipedia article on Tuam Cathedral, well serves to illustrate the theological and architectural muddle hanging over the liturgical advisors and architects of two successive waves of vandalism to the Tuam Baptistery:
The initial reordering of the chancel and sanctuary took place in 1969 at the very end of the episcopate of Archbishop Walsh (1940-1969). The Italianate baldachino over the high altar, the two transept altars, the pulpit and the communion rails were removed. The marble high altar (designed, with the baldachino and the tabernacle, by Leonardi of Rome) was moved to a dais at the centre of the crossing, and the baptistery was transferred to the shallow chancel at the rear. A new bishop’s throne by the local craftsman Al O’Dea was installed. The Blessed Sacrament was reserved in a new aumbry in the ease wall of the south transept, facing the south nave aisle. The aumbry, of gilt brass, was set in a slab of salmon-pink marble with a border of fluted grey granite.
Further reordering took place in early 1992. The entire cathedral was repainted and rewired, and the sanctuary area reordered. A new wooden screen with chevron patterning was erected behind the altar, turning the truncated chancel into a sacristy. O’Connor’s great east window in now partly obscured by the screen. A new dais of limestone was created, to provide a focus for the new barrel-shaped granite altar. The Blessed Sacrament is now reserved in a gilt brass tabernacle which now rests on a free-standing cylindrical granite plinth. The structure is now sheltered by a wooden baldachino.
Firstly, an aumbry is basically a cupboard which is usually, though not laways, located in the sanctuary and is used to conserved the Holy Oils. In Tuam, the Blessed Sacrament gets reserved in an oil cupboard.
Secondly, a Tabernacle is used to reserve the Blesseed Sacrament. It is nice to see that the liturgists in Tuam have at least come to realize that much.
Thirdly, a chancel is used to house the Sanctuary and Altar of a church. Our tour of primitive Baptisteries should make it patently obvious why placing a baptistery in a chancel is a theological absurdity and a liturgical nightmare. It is somewhat encouraging to see that the liturgists have,to some degree, come to see that a chancel is no place for a Baptistery -though, replacing it with a acristy is hardly progress.
But, where is the Baptistery presently located in Tuam Cathedral? And, perhaps more interestingly, where was it originally placed and how was it decorated etc?
Clogher Cathedral Baptistery
Of course, when it comes to Clogher Cathedral we are already conditioned to expect the worst and the vandalization of the Baptistery here does not disappoint.
Originally, JJ. McCarthy supplied the Cathedral with an attached Baptistery located on the North side of the nave. A.W.N. Pugin had already used a similar solution for Killarney Cathedral. Not unexpectedly, the Baptistery seems to have been dedicated to St. John the Baptist and was decorated with a set of painted glass windows referring to all of the major biblical scenes from the life of St. John the Baptist. The windows were made by Mayer of Munich and had as their themes: the appearance of the Angel to Zacheriah (the father of John the Baptist) in the Temple to announce that he would ahve a son and he was to call him John; the Visitation of Our Lady to her cousin St Elizabeth (John’s mother); John the Baptist baptising Our Lord in the Jordan; John the Baptist preaching in the desert; Salome bringing the head of Joh the Baptist to her mother Herodias. All of this dovetails with a long Christian tradition in both the East and Western churches. Now, however, the Baptistery is no more and the space has been eccentrically converted to a Lady Chapel -which are always located in the lateral chapels of sanctuaries or immediately behind the High Altar in ambulatory churches.
The modern “Baptistery” is a baptstery at all. It is located in one of the former lateral chapels in the sancturay area -we have already pointed out the theological incongruity of this arrangement.
The font is no more than a circular vat based on a circular disc. In location, form and iconograpny this is completely detached from all Christian tradition and reference. As far as one can ascertain, it does not even have a cross engraved on it!
Would anyone be able to locate a photograph of the interior of the Baptistery before the Isaurians raised their hammers?
Vat is right..might look nice as a feature in a Dermot Gavin Garden but here….awful.
And what in gods name is the carry on on the wall with the Kamikaze Dove….
@samuel j wrote:
Vat is right..might look nice as a feature in a Dermot Gavin Garden but here….awful.
And what in gods name is the carry on on the wall with the Kamikaze Dove….
Well, I cannot say for sure. The official “Pravda” style commentary refers to this and the other interjecta as “A release of creative energy”. Why that is so, I could not say. I am inclined to think that it migt be something else….
As to subject, well, at a guess (and I stress that its only a guess) it might be vague reference to the Ruach Elohim of the Book of Genesis -God’s creative Spirit….but then, the spirit of the genre is such that it could be anything as fugurative art is now multivalent.
Pravda tells us that the artis is one Frances Biggs -who apparently plays the fiddle with the RTS orchestra. Pravda also tells us in relation to Clogher Cathedral: “From day one, Frances won the respect of the bishop by insisting that the Blessed Sacrament area should take the shape of a contemplative space and should not be encumbered by any conventional ecclesiastical bric-à-brac”. “Her recommendation paid off”” Pravda continues to assure us.
Pravda then very kindly tells us how we are to appreciate them; “The tapesteries in the cathedral , which are the joint work of Frances Biggs and weaver Terry Dunne, must be among the foremost of madern tapesteries, with their incredible merging and mixing ofstrikingly beautiful colours”.
Praxiteles must investigate the prevalence of moths in and around Monaghan town. They could immeasurably improved the internal aspect of St. Macartan’s in the luscious stillness of the night!!
Praxiteles wrote:Clogher Cathedral BaptisteryOf course, when it comes to Clogher Cathedral we are already conditioned to expect the worst and the vandalization of the Baptistery here does not disappoint.
Originally, JJ. McCarthy supplied the Cathedral with an attached Baptistery located on the North side of the nave. A.W.N. Pugin had already used a similar solution for Killarney Cathedral. Not unexpectedly, the Baptistery seems to have been dedicated to St. John the Baptist and was decorated with a set of painted glass windows referring to all of the major biblical scenes from the life of St. John the Baptist. The windows were made by Mayer of Munich and had as their themes: the appearance of the Angel to Zacheriah (the father of John the Baptist) in the Temple to announce that he would ahve a son and he was to call him John]
beautiful masonry!
@Praxiteles wrote:
Would anyone like to guess what this might be?
A scene from the film of the Robert Harris book “Fatherland”
St. Mary’s Cathedral, Killarney, Baptistery
The Baptistery in St. Mary’s Cathedral is an attatched chapel located on the North side of the nave, a solution also wmployed by JJ. McCarthy at St. Macartan’s, Monaghan.
The Cathedral was begun in 1842
The Baptistery appears to be dedicated to St. John the Baptist and contains a large tracery window of thee lights depicting the Baptism of Our Lord in the Jordan.
Of all the Baptisteries that have been surveyed this (at least in its fairly recent guise) is singular for some liturgical genius has seen fit to put a SECOND font in the Baptistery -so much for St. Paul and his “one faith, one Baptism, one Lord and Saviour”. This is represents the apotheosis of a completely UNTHOLOGICAL approach to a Baptistery and make no sense whatsoever.
The original font has long lost its symbolic monumental cover.
Something positive can be said of the Baptistery. It is one of the few parts of the Cathedral to have survived the wreckage of 1972-1973. It still retains its plastered walls and its stencils. The floor also appears to have retained it Minton encaustic tiles on the floors. It seems that the wreckers decided that the Baptistery -and presumably the Sacrament of Baptism -was of no significance to the “sheep-herd” space being prepared int the main body of the Cathedral.
St. Mary and St. Anne’s Cathedral, Cork
The North cathedral in Cork has a very fine and impressive attached Baptistery situated on the North side of the nave. The Baptistery is hexagonal and covered by a conical roof. After Thurles, it is one of the most significant Baptisteries in Ireland (seen on left of the first picture). AT present, it appears to be used as a broom closet.
It had a decorated hexagonal font -which has been wrenched from its original setting and placed in an absurd puddle inside the West doorway. Again, its has long lost its monumental and symbolic hood.
Richard Hurley is responsible for this nonsense -including stripping the paint from the pillars of James Pain’s ceiling of 1828.
@Praxiteles wrote:
Is this the Franciscan Church in Limerick?
The colour scheme is just appalling!!
The colour scheme in this church, in particular the capitals of the pillars caused outrage in Limerick when it was carried out some years ago, not by a painting contractor but by a group the franciscans were rehabilitating !!!!!!!. The colours were chosen by a newly appointed franciscan pryor who refused to acceed to the peoples requests to change the scheme.He has now moved on but his legacy remains.This church is due to close next year when the franciscans move out and donate the church to Mary Immaculate teacher training college.
Another church closing in Limerick! The city is littered with closed down churches, all of them very fine buildings.
@ake wrote:
Another church closing in Limerick! The city is littered with closed down churches, all of them very fine buildings.
Are we surprised? Would it be too much for Mary Immaculate to keep it going?
@james1852 wrote:
The colour scheme in this church, in particular the capitals of the pillars caused outrage in Limerick when it was carried out some years ago, not by a painting contractor but by a group the franciscans were rehabilitating !!!!!!!. The colours were chosen by a newly appointed franciscan pryor who refused to acceed to the peoples requests to change the scheme.He has now moved on but his legacy remains.This church is due to close next year when the franciscans move out and donate the church to Mary Immaculate teacher training college.
Rehabilitation! I just wonder who was in need of it?
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