reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches
- This topic has 7,926 replies, 103 voices, and was last updated 9 years, 5 months ago by
Praxiteles.
- AuthorPosts
- October 7, 2007 at 7:07 pm #770574
Praxiteles
ParticipantThe Basilica at Nemea in the Pelopponese in Greece c. V century.
The Baptistery was external and rectangular. It was located on the northe side oft eh Basilica.
The font was circular.
October 7, 2007 at 8:04 pm #770575Praxiteles
ParticipantSome notes on early Christian Baptisteries with particular reference to the recentlt re-discovered Baptistery of San Lorenzo in Lucina in Rome:
October 7, 2007 at 8:22 pm #770576Praxiteles
ParticipantPraxiteles believes the following link takes us to an interesting project: a catalogue of early Christian Baptosteries with an emphasis on rite and liturgy. That bit is fins. The second bit of the project does not inspire the same enthuasism -especailly when we hear of liturgical planners
October 7, 2007 at 9:12 pm #770577Praxiteles
ParticipantThe Baptistery of Povlja in Croatia
The Baptistery is 7th century and located on the north side of the Basilica. It still survives and serves as part of the prsent parish church.
The font is cruciform.
October 7, 2007 at 9:47 pm #770578Praxiteles
ParticipantTwo examples of external Baptisteries fromMamshit (Memphis) in Negev desert in Palestine.
Both churches here date from around 400 A.D.
Both had external baptisteries
The Church of the Martyrs had a cruciform baptistery
October 7, 2007 at 10:08 pm #770579Praxiteles
ParticipantThe Basilica at Petra in Jordan dating from around 450.
It had a Baptistery located to the west of the nave.
The Baptistery is one of the largest and best preserved in the Near East.
The Basilica was discovered in 1993 and is currently under excavation.
October 8, 2007 at 5:48 pm #770580Praxiteles
ParticipantAnd here we have an extract from Adamnan’s description of the pilgrimage of Bishop Arculfus to the Holy Land. Adamnan’s book the De Locis Sanctis (On the Holy Places) was compiled post 670 AD.
Adamnan was a Donegal man born around the year 624 and joined the monastery of Iona in Scotland of which he became eight Abbot in 679.
Arculfus was a Bishop from Gaul who had undertaken the pilgrimage to the Holy Land. He visited Alexandria, Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Nazareth, Damascus, Constantinople and Rome. On his return his return to Gaul his ship was blown off course and eventually put in in the Western Isles of Scotland.
The extract below describes a chapel on the banks of the Jordan at the place where Our Lord was traditionally believed to have been baptized by St. John. There is little doubt that Adamnan is here describing a Baptistery:
“.[align=center:39kq72jl]XIV.-THE PLACE WHERE OUR LORD WAS BAPTIZED
BY JOHN[/align:39kq72jl].
That sacred and honoured place, where the Lord was baptized by John, is always covered by the waters of the river Jordan, and as Arculf, who went to the place, relates, he passed backwards and forwards to it(29) through the river; in that sacred place a wooden cross of great size is fixed, close to which the water comes up to the neck of the tallest man, or, at a time of great drought, when the waters are diminished, up to his breast; but when the river is in flood, the whole of the cross is covered over by the additional waters. The site of that cross, accordingly, marking the place where, as has been said above, the Lord was baptized, is on this side(30) of the bed of the river, and a strong man can with a sling throw a stone from it as far as the other bank on the Arabian side. From the site of the above-mentioned cross, a stone bridge is carried on arches to the bank, across which men go to the cross and descend by a slope to the bank, ascending as they return.(31) At the edge of the river is a small square church, built, as is said, on the spot where the garments of the Lord were taken care of at the time when He was baptized. This is raised, so as to be uninhabitable, on four stone vaults, standing above the waters which flow below. It is protected above by slacked lime,(32)and below, as has been said, is supported by vaults and arches. This church is in the lower ground of the valley through which the river Jordan flows; while on the higher ground, overhanging it, a great monastery of monks is built on the brow of the opposite hill. There is also enclosed within the same wall as the monastery, a church in honour of St. John Baptist, built of squared stones”.October 8, 2007 at 6:42 pm #770581Praxiteles
ParticipantAnd here we have a few shots of the excavations currently being conducted on the church described by Adamnan in his De Locis Sanctis almost fourteen hundred years ago. It is in modern Jordan and is quite unique in that a stairs in the apse of the church leads down to the river Jordan. The river, however, has changed course since this church was built in the 5th century.
October 8, 2007 at 6:50 pm #770582Praxiteles
ParticipantTo return to the lost city of Petra, here we have a picture of the external baptistery with its cruciform font:
October 8, 2007 at 7:46 pm #770583Praxiteles
ParticipantThe pilgrimage Basilica on Mount Nebo, presently in Jordan, marking the spot where Moses died
The Basilica dates from 531
http://www.archart.it/archart/asia/Giordania/Nebo/index.html
It has two Baptisteries: the Baptistery located on the North side dating fromt he 6th century; and that on the South side dating from the 5th century
October 8, 2007 at 10:03 pm #770584Praxiteles
ParticipantThe house of St. Peter at Capernaum.
By 391 a church is documented as having been built around the the original house.
In the fifth century, a new octagonal church with atrium and external baptietsry, of a type common in Italy, had been bult on the site. It apears that the site of Capernaum was abandoned by 750 following a severe earthquake
October 8, 2007 at 10:33 pm #770585Praxiteles
ParticipantAnd here is the original text as transmitted in St. Mark’s Gospel 1:21 (the cure of the possessed man in the Synagogue of Caphernaum) and at 1:29 the visit to the house of Simon (Peter) where he cured his mother in law:
1:21 και εισπορευονται εις καφαρναουμ. και ευθυς τοις σαββασιν εισελθων εις την συναγωγην εδιδασκεν. και εξεπλησσοντο επι τη διδαχη αυτου, ην γαρ διδασκων αυτους ὡς εξουσιαν εχων και ουχ ὡς οἱ γραμματεις. και ευθυς ην εν τη συναγωγη αυτων ανθρωπος εν πνευματι ακαθαρτω, και ανεκραξε λεγων· τι ἡμιν και σοι, ιησου ναζαρηνε; ηλθες απολεσαι ἡμας; οιδα σε τις ει, ὁ ἁγιος του θεου. και επετιμησεν αυτω ὁ ιησους λεγων· φιμωθητι και εξελθε εξ αυτου. και σπαραξαν αυτον το πνευμα το ακαθαρτον και φωνησαν φωνη μεγαλη εξηλθεν εξ αυτου. και εθαμβηθησαν ἁπαντες ὡστε συζητειν προς ἑαυτους λεγοντας· τι εστιν τουτο; διδαχη καινη κατ᾽ εξουσιαν· και τοις πνευμασι τοις ακαθαρτοις επιτασσει και ὑπακουουσιν αυτω. και εξηλθεν ἡ ακοη αυτου ευθυς εις ὁλην την περιχωρον της γαλιλαιας.
1:29 και ευθυς εκ της συναγωγης εξελθοντες ηλθον εις την οικιαν σιμωνος και ανδρεου μετα ιακωβου και ιωαννου. ἡ δε πενθερα σιμωνος κατεκειτο πυρεσσουσα. και ευθυς λεγουσιν αυτω περι αυτης, και προσελθων ηγειρεν αυτην κρατησας της χειρος και αφηκεν αυτην ὁ πυρετος και διηκονει αυτοις.
1:32 οψιας δε γενομενης, ὁτε εδυ ὁ ἡλιος, εφερον προς αυτον παντας τους κακως εχοντας και τους δαιμονιζομενους· και ην ὁλη ἡ πολις ὁλη επισυνηγμενη προς την θυραν· και εθεραπευσεν πολλους κακως εχοντας ποικιλαις νοσοις και δαιμονια πολλα εξεβαλεν, και ουκ ηφιεν λαλειν τα δαιμονια, ὁτι ηδεισαν αυτον.
1:35 και πρωι εννυχα λιαν αναστας εξηλθεν και απηλθεν εις ερημον τοπον κακει προσηυχετο. και κατεδιωξαν αυτον σιμων και οἱ μετ᾽ αυτου και εὑρον αυτον και λεγουσιν αυτω ὁτι παντες ζητουσιν σε. και λεγει αυτοις· αγωμεν αλλαχου εις τας εχομενας κωμοπολεις ἱνα και εκει κηρυξω· εις τουτο γαρ εξηλθον. και ηλθεν κηρυσσων εις τας συναγωγας αυτων εις ὁλην την γαλιλαιαν και τα δαιμονια εκβαλλων.
October 8, 2007 at 10:54 pm #770586Praxiteles
ParticipantThe Church of St Theodorus at Avdat in the Negev desert -South West of the Dead Sea dating rom 541.
The Baptistery is external
The font is cruciform.
October 9, 2007 at 3:28 am #770587Rhabanus
ParticipantThe theology dominating the cruciform baptismal fonts is obviously that of Romans 6, where Christian baptism is described in terms of dying with Christ and being buried with Him, then rising with Him to newness of life in the Resurrection. Thus the Christian descends into the cruciform font, dies to sin, then emerges in newness of life by the power of Christ’s own resurrection from the dead. This is the paschal mystery into which teh Christian is baptised.
For a new baptisery built along these lines, see the parish of St Charles Borromeo in Bayswater. That font is one of the most interesting and tasteful fonts Rhabanus has seen in a modern church.
@Praxiteles wrote:
The Church of St Theodorus at Avdat in the Negev desert -South West of the Dead Sea dating rom 541.
The Baptistery is external
The font is cruciform.
October 9, 2007 at 4:55 pm #770588Praxiteles
ParticipantThe Basilica and Baptistery of Abu Minas (near Alexandria) in Egypt.
The Basilica dates from 5 and 6th cenruries -although rebuilt several times befpre 849 as it has been.
The Basilica is dedicated to St Minas, a Roman soldier martyred under Diocletian c. 290.
The Baptistery is square shaped and contains a hexagonal font. It is external and located at the western front of the Basilica of the Crypt which contains the relics of St. Minas.
October 10, 2007 at 7:19 pm #770589Praxiteles
ParticipantButrint in Albania
This archeological site contains the second largest Baptistery in the Eastern Roman Empire, second only to that of Hagia Sophia in Constantinople which we have already seen.
The Baptistery is external to the Basilica.
The font is cruciform enclosed by a square.
The floor is covered in the most exquisit mosaic depicting teeming life – as in the one near the Jordan and in palestine which probably refere to the life giving effect of the Jordan River.
Note how the moasic is divided into seven concentric circles with font located in the 8th circle. Note too that font is surrounded by 8 pairs of pillars which probably supported a baldaquin.
These Baptistery mosiacs require a comprehensive study – and are likely to prove the historical underpinning for Oppenheimer’s mosaic in the Honan Chapel in Cork..
October 10, 2007 at 8:52 pm #770590Praxiteles
ParticipantOver the past few days, we have seen examples of Baptisteries ranging from c. 230 A.D. to c. 1450.
Representative samples have been taken from practically all parts of the ancient world -with thee xception of Germany. Examples have been drawn from Gaul, Italia, Rome, Illyria, Dalmatia, Albania, Macedonia, Greece, Constantinople, Asia Minor, Syria, Palestine, Transjordania, Egypt, Nubia, Proconsular Africa, Numidia, Mauretania and Hispania.
From these examples, we can see that the importance of the Sacrament of Baptism was practically universally emphasized in the primitive church by the insistence of building a separate structure to house the Baptismal Font. These early Christian centres were typically characterized by a Baptistery housing the Baptismal Font and a church housing the Altar.
Also, the significance of the Sacrament of Baptism as a rebirth through water and the Holy Spirit freeingf rom sin, original and personal, and as entry into the Body of teh Christ which is teh Church, is clearly stated by the EXTERNAL positioning of Baptosteries.
The primitive practice of Baptism was the baptism of adults through full immersion. In the late 4th and early 5th centuries the theological controversies surrounding the question of grace eventually concentrated on the question of the necessity of Baptism for salvation -and the logia of Our Lord that no one shall possess eternal life unless he be born of water and the Holy Spirit – and cmae to focus on the question of necessity of baptizing infants in order to ensure that they might popssess eternal life. The position was strongly advocated by St. Augustine and soon won universal acceptance throughout Christendom with the result that Baptism came to be administered almost universally to infants only. This move occasioned deep consequences for the Sacrament and its administration.
Firstly, the Catechumenate -or period of instructio and preparation before reception of Baptism- which preceeded adult baptism ceased for te simple reason that you could not catechise an infant child -it was at this stage that the sponsors appeared at Baptism and gave the spicific undertaking to be responsible for the child’s education in the faith. One could say that the Cathecumenate was effectively deferred and responsibility for it transferred to the sponsors -which still underlies canonical the requirement that they be practicising Catholics.
Secondly, infant baptism caused changes to the manner in which the accompanying Sacraments of Confirmaton and First Holy Communion were administered. The Greeks simply transferred the administration of all three Sacraments in their original sequence from the adult to the infant. So, to-day, in all of the Oriental Churches, the child when baptised is immediately confirmed and then given Holy Communion. This has the consequence that they Greeks have nothing like First Holy Communion as we know it nor Confirmation.
In the West, the three Sacramnsts are separated in infant Baptism. The child is Baptized. Confirmation and Holy Communion are delayed to a later date.
Thirdly, the change to infant Baptism also effected changes in the liturgy. As Baptism was originally administered only at Easter and Pentecost, the ceremony was incorporated into the rites associated with teh Easter Vigil. However, as the Baptism ceremony took place in the Baptistery, long series of readings were devised for the faithful who were assembled in the the church while the clergy were outside in the Baptistery. In the Byzantine Rite, the Easter vigil has 15 readings including the entire Book of Daniel, the Crossing of the Red Sea, the Story of Noah etc. All of these readings are associated with Baptism and were read while the Baptismceremony was going on outside the church. Something of this survives in the Easter Vigil in the Latin Rite where as many as 9 readings were perscribed to be read to the faithful while Baptism was going on in the Baptistery -of course, since there are few external Baptisteries left in the West, it make for a singular pecularity to have to sit and listen to 9 readings while nothing is going on in teh Baptistery. So, when infant baptism became the norm, and when it brought with it the administration of the sacrament at any time of the year, the Easter vigil is still left with it 9 readings which now serve no practical purpose.
Fourthly, with the rise of infant Baptism external Baptisteries ceased to be built and small fonts came to be located at the west end of the nave near to the door. This was an effort to retain something of the sacrament’s sense of being the Sacrament of entry into the Church. Indeed, in the medieval period, the ceremony of Baptism required that the exorsicisms be performed outside of the church -usually in the porch- and these were followed by the insuflations -or breathing on the child to symbolize the Holy Spirit’s taking possession of the child for Christ and for God- again performed in the porch. Then followed the act of Baptism at the font with the sacrament administered by infusion (or the pouring of water).
WIth the Barbaric invasions and the rise of the Arabs and Turks, many of the ancient centres of Christianity disappeared in Africa, Asia Minor and eastern Europe. External baptisteries best survived only in Italy wher they are still used according to the ancient and primitive manner except taht it is infants who are baptised rather than adults.
Given this historical evolution -or degradation as some would see it, it becomes evident beyond a shadow of a doubt that much of what is to be seen in Irish Cathedrals and churches with regard tot he Sacrament of Baptism is not only detached from from Christian theological and liturgical tradition, but, in fact, nothing more that dramatic sets for Disneyland!
One of the worst pieces of nonsense ever cooked up was Ricahrd Hurley’s awful and appaling canepast in St. Mary’s Cathedral in Cork. On the basis of what we have seen to date on early Christian Baptisteries, it should not be difficult to count the stupidities in the following description that Hurley offers of his work on the COrk Baptistery:
“Since Vatican II, the interior space of the cathedral may no longer be experienced as static. When the interior cathedral space is perceived as dynamic, the enactment of cult must be considered simultaneous from the side of the faithful as participents. Not only in cult, but in culture, has the need to reshape audience space become more apparent. The proscenium arch has given way to the “thrust” stage, in order that the audience become more effectively involved in dramatic enactment. At worship the faithful must feel themselves God’s Holy People. They become a worshiping whole as they interact with one another and the celebrant, surrounding the altar on three sides facing each other across a ‘thrust” sanctuary.
A wide and spacious sanctuary finished white limestone accommodates all liturgical ceremonies, including the Chrism Mass, Sunday and Weekday celebrations, funerals, weddings, ordinations and confirmations etc. The altar, designed by the architect defines the entire space of the Cathedral ad the place of celebration of the Eucharist. It binds it together – it is both the gathering point and place of outreach of the Cathedral. The location of the new sunken Baptismal area, inside the great West Door, but within the body of the Cathedral, is a dramatic intervention and a reminder of entry into the Community of the Church. The use of the existing Baptismal Font is a strong link with the history of the Cathederal”.
October 10, 2007 at 10:40 pm #770591ake
Participantgreat tour!
October 11, 2007 at 10:58 am #770592Praxiteles
ParticipantThanks for the compliment Ake!
Now we will turn to situation in Ireland and take a look at how Baptisteries were treaed in the 19th century revival cathedrals (mainly) and from that survay the devastation that has take place on thse Baptisteries. Generlly the vandalism on Irish churches tends to be most visible when carried out on the sancturies of the churches. BUt, Praxiteles maintains, it has been even more devastating in relation to Baptiosteries but this has gone largely unnoticed because Baptisteries do not tend to be immediately evident in Irish churches.
October 11, 2007 at 11:15 pm #770593ake
ParticipantLimerick;
[ATTACH]5956[/ATTACH]
laugh or cry?might as well just laugh.
- AuthorPosts
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

