reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches
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Looking through a series of the Catholic Directory (which began publication in c. 1829), it strikes me that this is a prime source fro the identification of craftsmen and artists involved in the decoration of 19 and 20 th century churches in nIreland. The advertisments placed in the Catholic Directory by these often contain lists of works done by them. Has anyone done any research on these sources.
@ake wrote:
St.Peter’s, Drogheda
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happy to report that the church is in a very good state. You might even say a very fine state indeed. The altar and rails are in fine condition, and there’s good decoration the chancel and ceiling, some very nice stenciling in the sanctuary actually. There are no brutal modern obstructions as far as I noticed, the only thing being the shrine for Oliver Plunkett’s head, which I quite liked. There’s a little bit of an exhibition around it, but nothing terrible. It’s disgusting though IMO. Can they not put it in a cover!
Some photographs of the church here http://www.flickr.com/photos/58086761@N00/sets/72157600701954392/aome here too
http://ireland.archiseek.com/buildings_ireland/louth/drogheda/st_peters_rc_interior.html@Rhabanus wrote:
Glorious! Even the plaster statues are painted in excellent taste.
Generic plaster statues may seem cheap and unsophisticated to some but I really like them, and not every church, in Ireland at least, can have expensive marbles, so they’re a good substitute. Here are some from St.Audeon’s in Dublin
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This is from Waterford Cathedral
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This is from St.Francis Xavier’s in Dublin
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Which also houses an interesting set of four, one of which is
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Could these be wood? The writing on the scroll says N.D. du Sacre coeur something I can’t read then the date of 7 sep 1875. Anyone know anything about them?Another excellent resource for research on Irish church decoration in the 19 and 20th century is the Capuchin Annual, especially its advertisment sections and many interesting articles on artists and ecclesiastical commissions.
@ake wrote:
Generic plaster statues may seem cheap and unsophisticated to some but I really like them, and not every church, in Ireland at least, can have expensive marbles, so they’re a good substitute. Here are some from St.Audeon’s in Dublin
[ATTACH]5167[/ATTACH][ATTACH]5168[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH]5169[/ATTACH][ATTACH]5170[/ATTACH]
This is from Waterford Cathedral
[ATTACH]5172[/ATTACH]
This is from St.Francis Xavier’s in Dublin
[ATTACH]5171[/ATTACH]
Which also houses an interesting set of four, one of which is
[ATTACH]5173[/ATTACH]
Could these be wood? The writing on the scroll says N.D. du Sacre coeur something I can’t read then the date of 7 sep 1875. Anyone know anything about them?My chief complaint about plaster statues is that they chip all too easily. [Note the little chip at the base of Notre Dame du Sacre Coeur.] Also, they are too susceptible to heat and dampness. Once a digit or a hand is broken, the repairs are usually obvious and often don’t last long.
In North America, far too many amateur ‘painters’ have applied their “talents” to such statues with appallingly hideous results. Garish colours slapped on indiscriminately with no attempt at shading or subtlety detract from the statues. The poor deserve better than that! And the poor are the ones forced to look at the handiwork of these ‘artistes.’
In the case of those statues presented here, thanks to ake, the molds were excellent, and painters with real talent were allowed to bring the statues to life. These are in excellent taste.
It may be of interest to some readers that commissioning one of the ateliers in Rome (or northern Italy or the Tyrol) is less expensive than ordering one in vinyl or fibreglass. I should think that the most shocking expense related to commissioning a marble statue from, say, Carrara, would be the shipping overseas.
The artisans who painted the statues shown above deserve high praise and more commissions.
No offence intended to poor parishes or communities which cannot afford “top of the line” statuary. Better, in fact, to have a plaster statue stained in muted tones (off-white and sepia) than to display some garishly painted figure which could haunt a house.
Rhabanus wrote:It may be of interest to some readers that commissioning one of the ateliers in Rome (or northern Italy or the Tyrol) is less expensive than ordering one in vinyl or fibreglass. I should think that the most shocking expense related to commissioning a marble statue from, say, Carrara, would be the shipping overseas.
The artisans who painted the statues shown above deserve high praise and more commissions.QUOTE]
Shipping from Italy is not that expensive; there is a big trade with Italy and most of the shippers are always looking for a bigger “back-load.” That’s why Ireland is being flooded with cheap tiles from there…
KB2St. Joseph’s Church, Liscarroll, Co. Cork
Latest update:
1. Some 13 objections have been lodged against a planning application to wreck the interior of the church made on 3 April 2007. The due date for a decision on this application was 28 May 2007.
2. Cork County Council wrote to the developer on 24 May 2007 requesting further information. In their letter addressed to Kevin o’Keeffe, Annabella, Mallow (acting for Fr. Stephen O’Mahony), the Cork County Council made the following observations:
a. “The supporting information contained in the application is totally inadequate to enable the Planning Authority to consider the proposed works in the light of the protected status of the overall building.”. Two copies of an heritage impact assessment were requested contaoining a written description of of the existing and proposed development, appropriately illustrated through the use of scaled drawings and photigraphic material. The developer has also been asked to address the impact of the proposed development on the architectual heritage of the building and to “provide appropriate mitigations for this where necessary”. It also seems that Cork County Council thought of asking the developer to provide a specific list of repair works that are intended for the building.
b. Curiously, the Cork County Council have asked the developer to provide evidence of legal title to the property. I cnnot figure out the reasoning beind nthat one.
Clearly, Cork County Council has not bought the drivil supplied to them by the Cloyne HACK and it is encouraging to note that the Planning Aiuthority regards their work in relation to St. Joseph’s Liscarroll as “totally inadequate”. This should be further reason for the members of that august body to start penning their letters of resignation. Not having had the decency to go quietly after the debacle they caused in relation to St. Colman’s Cathedral, they now have the gall to treat us (and the Planning Authority) to another dose of their astounding ignorance in the case of St. Joseph’s Liscarroll. Should the people of the HACK be unable to read or write, I am sure we will be able to arrange a charitable person to help them do the needful and draw up the necessary letters of resignation. Otherwise……well…we shall ahve to give them each a presant and point them to where the forest is and explain to them what “the decent thing” is in military terms!!!
KerryBog2 wrote:Rhabanus wrote:It may be of interest to some readers that commissioning one of the ateliers in Rome (or northern Italy or the Tyrol) is less expensive than ordering one in vinyl or fibreglass. I should think that the most shocking expense related to commissioning a marble statue from, say, Carrara, would be the shipping overseas.
The artisans who painted the statues shown above deserve high praise and more commissions.QUOTE]
Shipping from Italy is not that expensive]
Very interesting! Shipping costs are frightful to North America. Until recently, the shipping even of books was beyond all reasonable proportion – that at least has been corrected.
Strange, though, that a carved wooden statue costs less than a vinyl or fibreglass copy! A parish on this side of thepond has been searching for a statue of St Bernadette as a nun. There are plenty of statues depicting her as the peasant seer of Lourdes kneeling before th egrotto, with candle in hand. The pastor inquired about a statue of St Bernadette in religious life and was told in May 2007 that the sculpting of a wooden statue would be more economical than a fibreglass copy – and that the shipping to North America would be astronomical.
Very pleased to learn that at least Ireland is doing well in the current economy.
@Rhabanus wrote:
My chief complaint about plaster statues is that they chip all too easily. [Note the little chip at the base of Notre Dame du Sacre Coeur.] Also, they are too susceptible to heat and dampness. Once a digit or a hand is broken, the repairs are usually obvious and often don’t last long.
Yes, many plaster statues have grossly deformed hands as a result of tentative restorations. That reminds me of something. In SS Peter and Paul Cork, I was sorry to notice that quite alot of the magnificent woodwork has been damaged, and not just single fingers]5191[/ATTACH]
@ake wrote:
Yes, many plaster statues have grossly deformed hands as a result of tentative restorations. That reminds me of something. In SS Peter and Paul Cork, I was sorry to notice that quite alot of the magnificent woodwork has been damaged, and not just single fingers]5191[/ATTACH]
There used to be a man somewhere in the mid-western USA who would repair hands of statues by substituting hands from mannequins and dolls. He had a whole garage full of these wares. He got them as castoffs from department- and clothing-stores, as well as from thrift shops.
Some statuary factories now make the hands separately and insert them after delivery. They are suspended by a small nail within the sleeve of the saint and then glued lightly so that the head of the nail can be filed down and then the sleeve painted. In the event of an “accident,” an act of vandalism, or an excess of piety (common among south-Asians who feel the need to grab the feet and hands of statues, holding them for inordinate lengths of time), the damaged hands can be removed without difficulty and new hands inserted. Of course, this is alot of bother, so if you can get marble or wood, it makes a better investment in the long run.
I am inclined to think that the statues in Sts Peter and Paul’s require something more sophisticated. There are still craftsmen working in the Tyrol who do this sort of stuff and fixing a pair of hands shouod be no bother to them.
@Praxiteles wrote:
I am inclined to think that the statues in Sts Peter and Paul’s require something more sophisticated. There are still craftsmen working in the Tyrol who do this sort of stuff and fixing a pair of hands shouod be no bother to them.
The quality of craftsmanship is still quite high there.
By the way, now that the motu proprio has been released, can anyone tell me which churches have been doing the rite of 1962? Have there been many of such designated churches in Ireland? More in the cities than in the country? Vice-versa?
How about monasteries or friaries? Any religious communities celebrating Mass according to the 1962 use there?
The most significant one would be St Audeons in Dublin. The old Rite is akso celebrated in St. Peter and Paul’s in Cork. While most dioceses in Irelans have made some accomodation for the 1962 Missal, 5 dioceses have consistently refused even the most minimal and restrictive use of the old Rite. Perhaps not insignifitantly, one of those is Cloyne where Bishio Magee displayed none of the generosity asked for by Pope John Paul II in Ecclesia Dei adflicta to accomodate traditionalist Catholics. It comes as no surprise that the matter has now been completely taken out of his hands. Indeed, as recently as three weeks ago permission for the use of the old Rite was refused to a group of people – politically this must have been one of the most stupid decisions ever made since what was refused three weeks ago MUST now be conceded.
@Praxiteles wrote:
The most significant one would be St Audeons in Dublin. The old Rite is akso celebrated in St. Peter and Paul’s in Cork. While most dioceses in Irelans have made some accomodation for the 1962 Missal, 5 dioceses have consistently refused even the most minimal and restrictive use of the old Rite. Perhaps not insignifitantly, one of those is Cloyne where Bishio Magee displayed none of the generosity asked for by Pope John Paul II in Ecclesia Dei adflicta to accomodate traditionalist Catholics. It comes as no surprise that the matter has now been completely taken out of his hands. Indeed, as recently as three weeks ago permission for the use of the old Rite was refused to a group of people – politically this must have been one of the most stupid decisions ever made since what was refused three weeks ago MUST now be conceded.
Some histrionic Italian bishop is going on and on about the motu proprio Summorum pontificum. A full report appears on Inside the Vatican Magazine newsflash@insidethevatican.com made available below.
Sounds as though an acorn just landed on Chicken Little’s head and now he’s proclaiming the end of the world: “The sky is falling!!” Now watch him circulate around the barnyard stirring up panic among Henny Penny, Ducky Lucky, Turkey Lurkey, and all the rest. I think it’s high time that Foxy Loxy had dinner: Squab Lorraine.
Just get a load of these juicy tidbits:
“This day is for me a day of grief. I have a lump in my
throat and I do not manage to hold back my tears. But, I will obey the
Holy Father, because I am a bishop and because I care for him. However,
I cannot hide my sadness for the putting aside of one of the most
important reforms of the Second Vatican Council.” In fact, Monsignor
Luca Brandolini, Bishop of Sora-Aquino-Pontecorvo and member of the
Liturgical Committee of the Cei (Italian Episcopal Conference), hardly
holds back his tears when he is asked for a comment on the
reintroduction of the Tridentine Latin Mass: “Please, do not ask me
anything, I do not wish to speak [about it], for I am living the
saddest
day of my life as a priest, as a bishop, and as a man.”Q: Monsignor Brandolini, why [are you] so upset?
A: “It is a day of grief, not only for me, but for many who lived and
worked in the Second Vatican Council. Today, a reform for which so many
labored, at the cost of great sacrifices, animated solely by the wish
to
renew the Church, has been canceled.”Q: The optional return to the Tridentine Rite represents thus a danger
for the Church?A: “We hope not. It remains to be seen in the future, but today an
important reform of the Council was undermined.”Q: Why are you so touched by the decision taken by Pope Ratzinger?
A: “The episcopal ring which I carry on my finger belonged to
archbishop Annibale Bugnini, the father of the Conciliar liturgical
reform. I was, at the time of the Council, a disciple of his and a
close
co-worker. I was close to him when he worked in that reform and I
always
recall with how much passion he worked for liturgical renewal. Now, his
work has been canceled.”Q: You will not accept the “motu proprio” of Benedict XVI, then?
A: “I will obey, because I care for the Holy Father. I have for him the
same sentiment that a son has for his father. And then, as a bishop, I
am bound to obedience. Yet, in my heart, I suffer deeply. I feel as if
wounded in my heart, and I cannot help saying it. Nonetheless, if
anyone
in my diocese will ask me to follow the Tridentine rite, I will not be
able to say no. But I do not believe this will happen, because ever
since I have been the bishop of Sora-Aquino-Pontecorvo, there has never
been anyone who has expressed a similar desire. I am certain that it
will always be like this in the future.”*** NEW SUBSCRIBERS ONLY! Subscribe to Inside the Vatican Magazine for
Only $34.95! Buy Now and Save
$15.00!http://www.insidethevatican.com/offers/new-subscriber-offer.htmMeanwhile the Bishop of Cloyne must be eating crow. But His Lordship shouldn’t weep like his Italian counterpart; otherwise he’ll dillute the minestrone.
@Rhabanus wrote:
Some histrionic Italian bishop is going on and on about the motu proprio Summorum pontificum. A full report appears on Inside the Vatican Magazine newsflash@insidethevatican.com made available below.
Sounds as though an acorn just landed on Chicken Little’s head and now he’s proclaiming the end of the world: “The sky is falling!!” Now watch him circulate around the barnyard stirring up panic among Henny Penny, Ducky Lucky, Turkey Lurkey, and all the rest. I think it’s high time that Foxy Loxy had dinner: Squab Lorraine.
Just get a load of these juicy tidbits:
“This day is for me a day of grief. I have a lump in my
throat and I do not manage to hold back my tears. But, I will obey the
Holy Father, because I am a bishop and because I care for him. However,
I cannot hide my sadness for the putting aside of one of the most
important reforms of the Second Vatican Council.” In fact, Monsignor
Luca Brandolini, Bishop of Sora-Aquino-Pontecorvo and member of the
Liturgical Committee of the Cei (Italian Episcopal Conference), hardly
holds back his tears when he is asked for a comment on the
reintroduction of the Tridentine Latin Mass: “Please, do not ask me
anything, I do not wish to speak [about it], for I am living the
saddest
day of my life as a priest, as a bishop, and as a man.”Q: Monsignor Brandolini, why [are you] so upset?
A: “It is a day of grief, not only for me, but for many who lived and
worked in the Second Vatican Council. Today, a reform for which so many
labored, at the cost of great sacrifices, animated solely by the wish
to
renew the Church, has been canceled.”Q: The optional return to the Tridentine Rite represents thus a danger
for the Church?A: “We hope not. It remains to be seen in the future, but today an
important reform of the Council was undermined.”Q: Why are you so touched by the decision taken by Pope Ratzinger?
A: “The episcopal ring which I carry on my finger belonged to
archbishop Annibale Bugnini, the father of the Conciliar liturgical
reform. I was, at the time of the Council, a disciple of his and a
close
co-worker. I was close to him when he worked in that reform and I
always
recall with how much passion he worked for liturgical renewal. Now, his
work has been canceled.”Q: You will not accept the “motu proprio” of Benedict XVI, then?
A: “I will obey, because I care for the Holy Father. I have for him the
same sentiment that a son has for his father. And then, as a bishop, I
am bound to obedience. Yet, in my heart, I suffer deeply. I feel as if
wounded in my heart, and I cannot help saying it. Nonetheless, if
anyone
in my diocese will ask me to follow the Tridentine rite, I will not be
able to say no. But I do not believe this will happen, because ever
since I have been the bishop of Sora-Aquino-Pontecorvo, there has never
been anyone who has expressed a similar desire. I am certain that it
will always be like this in the future.”*** NEW SUBSCRIBERS ONLY! Subscribe to Inside the Vatican Magazine for
Only $34.95! Buy Now and Save
$15.00!http://www.insidethevatican.com/offers/new-subscriber-offer.htmThis is Brandolini, the Bishop of Sora. It is all explained by the fact that he was Annibale Bugnini’s secretary. Readers of the thread will be familiar with this name since he fetures on our notable iconocalsts page. I do not thing it matters too much. Brandolini is now 72 and will soon be sailing into the great oblivion before too long.
@Praxiteles wrote:
This is Brandolini, the Bishop of Sora. It is all explained by the fact that he was Annibale Bugnini’s secretary. Readers of the thread will be familiar with this name since he fetures on our notable iconocalsts page. I do not thing it matters too much. Brandolini is now 72 and will soon be sailing into the great oblivion before too long.
Brandolini came from the same religious order as Bugnini: they were both of the Congregation of the Mission, known as Vincentians or Lazarists. Seems like croneyism to me, but this is strictly conjecture from someone on the outside. Nevertheless it looks like partiality and patronage.
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