reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches

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  • #769674
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    I think the “intimate” arrangement of stools around the Baptismal Font particularly bathetic and clearly demonstrates little or no realization of the cosmic effects of lavacral re-generation.

    #769675
    Rhabanus
    Participant

    @Praxiteles wrote:

    Hi there CCB!

    Here is the online edition of “Sacred Architecture”:

    http://www.sacredarchitecture.org/

    High endorsement for Sacred Architecture! These are scholars, designers, architects, artists, and practitioners with an eye for beauty, standards of excellence, and serious commitment to working within the Tradition. [No donkey jackets on them!]

    More of this, please.

    #769676
    Rhabanus
    Participant

    @corcaighboy wrote:

    From today’s Irish Independent. I am sure regular posters here may find issue with the part I have underlined re experts!

    Builders sore over priest’s tender

    ANGRY builders have accused their parish priest of snubbing them by awarding a lucrative &#65533]They are the architects, the experts[/U]. You pay expert consultants on any job you are not capable of doing yourself,” he said.

    Four other companies which indicated an interest were told not to submit tenders. One of them, GKT, was told it didn’t have sufficient experience in working on chapels to be considered for the job.

    “That was an inadequate response. We finished off work on St Patrick’s Church in Belleek some years ago when the original contractor was unable to do so,” said GKT boss Brendan Keown, a member of the Bundoran congregation.

    Thanks, CB for the enlightening newsbite.

    FYI:

    The Constitution on the Liturgy (1963) of Vatican 2 states:

    “16. The study of the Liturgy is to be ranked among the compulsory and major courses in seminaries and religious houses of studies; in theological faculties it is to rank among the principal courses. It is to be taught under its theological, historical, spiritual, pastoral, and canonical aspects. Moreover, other professors, while striving to expound the mystery of Christ and the history of salvation from the angle proper to each of their own subjects, must nevertheless do so in a way that will clearly bring out the connection between their subjects and the liturgy, as also the underlying unity of all priestly training. This consideration is especially important for professors of dogmatic, spiritual, and pastoral theology and for professors of holy Scripture.”

    If that is not sufficiently clear even to the merest dolt, read on:

    “17. In seminaries and houses of religious, clerics shall be given a liturgical formation in their spiritual life. The means for this are: proper guidance so tht theu may be able to understand the sacred rites and take part in them wholehaertedly; the actual celebration of the sacred mysteries and of other, popular devotions imbued with the spirit of the liturgy. In addition, they must learn how to observe the liturgical laws, so that life in seminaries and houses of religious may be thoroughly permeated by the spirit of the liturgy.”

    One would expect someone “thoroughly permeated with the spirit of the liturgy” to be an invaluable resource to a church architect. As a priest, Fr Munster or for that matter any other man ordained to the presbyterate, ought to be able to communicate effectively to the architects and contractors the liturgical needs and requirements that must be satisfied if they are to be granted the privilege of working on a church.

    “18. Priests, both secular and religious, who are already working in the Lord’s vineyard are to be helped by every suitable means to understand ever more fully what it is they are doing in their liturgical functions; they are to be aided to live the liturgical life and to share it with the faithful entrusted to their care.”

    Do the seminaries in Ireland not provide a thorough liturgical formation that would enable parish priests to sit down with an architect and a contractor and to set out priorities, aims, and objectives, reminding them of ecclesial customs and laws that are to be observed in designing new churches and in planning renovations of older churches? If not, then help can be acquired in remediating education that ought to have been provided by the seminary.

    A final note from the Sacred Congregation of the Clergy, Circular Letter Inter ea to presidents of the conferences of bishops, on continuing education and formation of the clergy, especially the younger clergy, 4 November 1969 [Acta Apostolicae Sedis 62 (1970) 134:

    “11. A strong spiritual life and sound theological knowledge enliven and nurture pastoral motivation and ministry, an effective administration of the sacraments, a convincing preaching of God’s word, and every form of pastoral charity: in short, the entire service for which priests have received ordination.”

    ]All citations above are available in ICEL, Documents on the Liturgy, 1963-1979: Conciliar, Papal, and Curial Texts (Collegeville MN: Liturgical Press, 1982.]

    Perhaps the diocese was shortchanged by the seminary – in which case there really ought to be some restitution and reparation for the ‘bill of goods.’

    #769677
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    I am afraid Rhabanus that in Maynooth the level of training in the Sacred Liturgy has been reduced to the brayings of Paddy Jones and his gnomic institute for pastoral liturgy.

    #769678
    Rhabanus
    Participant

    @Praxiteles wrote:

    I am afraid Rhabanus that in Maynooth the level of training in the Sacred Liturgy has been reduced to the brayings of Paddy Jones and his gnomic institute for pastoral liturgy.

    So sorry to learn that Maynooth has slumped into the tar pits. A far cry, it seems, from the day when the likes of liturgist Gerard Montague held forth [see his Problems in the Liturgy (Westminster, Maryland: Newman, 1958) and Ireland led the Church Universal in theology, liturgy, missiology, and Church attendance. Now it seems the Church there has spun completely out of control. Where is the leadership?

    Can worthy candidates for the priesthood not be sent abroad, as in penal times, to receive a competent liturgical education and formation? One does wonder about the quality of ‘domestic training’ when one reads the irresponsible pleas of ignorance regarding ecclesiastical architecture. I mean, if a priest has no clue about how to build and ornament a church, then what kind of formation has he received in the first place?

    #769679
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    @Rhabanus wrote:

    So sorry to learn that Maynooth has slumped into the tar pits. A far cry, it seems, from the day when the likes of liturgist Gerard Montague held forth [see his Problems in the Liturgy (Westminster, Maryland: Newman, 1958) and Ireland led the Church Universal in theology, liturgy, missiology, and Church attendance. Now it seems the Church there has spun completely out of control. Where is the leadership?

    Can worthy candidates for the priesthood not be sent abroad, as in penal times, to receive a competent liturgical education and formation? One does wonder about the quality of ‘domestic training’ when one reads the irresponsible pleas of ignorance regarding ecclesiastical architecture. I mean, if a priest has no clue about how to build and ornament a church, then what kind of formation has he received in the first place?

    That a modern Irish parish priest, in contrast to his 19th. century counterpart, does not know what he wants when he goes to build or decorate a church is merely symptomatic of a much deeper crisis in the Irish Church where bishops no longer know how to govern and, not infrequently, are no longer capable of knowing or identifying orthodox Catholic doctrine and practice.

    In the case of the Cobh debacle, we find a bishop guffing (or having guffed on his behalf) ideas about communal worship that not only reduce, but ultimately eliminate, the idea of the priest as one constituted in Sacred Orders to act in Sacris before God on behalf of mankind -and having the gall to refer this a the Liturgical Movement or as Liturgical renewal. And this without knowing or realizing that the same ideas were expressely condemned by Pius XII in 1948 with Mediator Dei and who clearly either cannot or will not understand what he reads in the Rite of Priestly ordination. Patently, a demonstrable specimen of the cloud of unknowing!

    This crisis of identity, and of purpose, manifests itself in other areas which are best not entered into here.

    #769680
    Fearg
    Participant

    New Porches:

    Here is an example of how to make a decent job of it, St Mary’s Church Clonmany, Co Donegal. The porch is less than 10 years old. Internally, the church has been restored quite sympathetically, I’m currently trying to track down a photo.

    http://image54.webshots.com/154/1/37/20/2094137200093714059BSmged_fs.jpg

    #769681
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    One of the earliest gothic revival churches built in the British Isles must surely be Francis Hiorne’s St. Mary’s at Tetbury in Gloustershire built between 1777-1781.

    The wooden pillars and plaster vaulting closely resembles that executed by the Pain Brothers in the 1842 gothicising of St. Patrick’s Church, Fermoy.

    #769682
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    Another early exercise in the gothic revival: St. peter’s, Gaulby, Leicestershire rebuilt by John Wing in 1741:

    #769683
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    The church of St. John the Baptist at King’s Norton in Leicestershire built by John WIng the younger in 1760-1716.

    #769684
    Rhabanus
    Participant

    @Praxiteles wrote:

    That a modern Irish parish priest, in contrast to his 19th. century counterpart, does not know what he wants when he goes to build or decorate a church is merely symptomatic of a much deeper crisis in the Irish Church where bishops no longer know how to govern and, not infrequently, are no longer capable of knowing or identifying orthodox Catholic doctrine and practice.

    In the case of the Cobh debacle, we find a bishop guffing (or having guffed on his behalf) ideas about communal worship that not only reduce, but ultimately eliminate, the idea of the priest as one constituted in Sacred Orders to act in Sacris before God on behalf of mankind -and having the gall to refer this a the Liturgical Movement or as Liturgical renewal. And this without knowing or realizing that the same ideas were expressely condemned by Pius XII in 1948 with Mediator Dei and who clearly either cannot or will not understand what he reads in the Rite of Priestly ordination. Patently, a demonstrable specimen of the cloud of unknowing!

    This crisis of identity, and of purpose, manifests itself in other areas which are best not entered into here.

    Point well taken, Prax. This parlous state of affairs doubtless makes life rather challenging for the good, faithful priests who go about their apostolic duties with sincere conviction and unalloyed commitment to their priestly state and its inherent responsibilities. For whilst the time-servers and the gadflies lurch from one crisis to another, leaving a swath of confusion, anger, and misery in their wake, priests seriously intent upon their duties must contend with the fallout from the ridiculous bahaviour of the overindulged narcissists pandering for higher offices in the chancery. Thank heaven the faithful can tell the real sheperds from the hirelings. It all looks rather different in the vanity rags that pass for diocesan newspapers these days.

    Tell me, Prax, are there Clown Masses in Ireland? They’ve occurred in Australia, Canada, and the United States. I recall that quite a row broke out in the diocese of Victoria, Canada, where an Italian widow and her family took action because, as the loved one’s casket was wheeled into the church, clowns in full costume and make-up appeared from a side entrance and proceeded to tie helium-filled balloons to its handles. The family was confused and ultimately appalled. How did such a situation arise in the first place?

    The following true story suggests that the craziness is still not out of everyone’s system. On Sunday, 31 October 2005, in a parish church in one famous diocese in the USA, a priest concluded the evening Mass by slipping behind a screen (not, I might add, a rood screen, but some flimsy structure erected behind the all-important chair), and, re-emerging in the costume of ‘Spiderman,’ ran down the central aisle from the sanctuary to the front doors. The faithful had been told the week beforehand that they should feel free to come to Mass in their Halloween costumes, since the children would probably go out for ‘Trick-or-Treat’ and the adults were likely to attend fancy-dress balls. The faithful duly arrived Sunday evening (31 Oct) to find plastic spiders adorning the candlesticks on the altar and cotton stretched thinly around the altar to give the impression of spiderwebs. The arachnid theme had invaded the very sanctuary of th Lord and laid the scene for the ultimate emergence, after Mass, of Fr Spidey. Although many of the parishioners were ripping mad at this display of sacrilegious buffoonery and profane vulgarity, no suspensions, interdicts, or any other consequences were forthcoming. Business as usual – – monkey business!

    The thing that really galls me is that the guffers and the lickspittles, the panderers and the time-servers are all rewarded lavishly, since their antics seem well in keeping with “the spirit of the times” even though ‘the times’ themselves lapsed forty years ago. What a pity the episcopate hasn’t checked the calendar recently, otherwise they’d realise that the sixties and the seventies, for whatever those decades were worth, are long gone, and that the Church has moved beyond the perceived need to cater to entities which only despise and mock her.

    Church architecture fora, such as this one, play a prominent role in keeping hope alive in those who recognise the need for true beauty, proportion, and harmony in church buildings. They also serve as a witness to the overwhelming majority who want to retain and enjoy beautiful liturgical edifices despite the determination of the vain, the frivolous, th eobstinate and the obsolete to consign the legacy of our forebears in the Faith to the ash heap of history.

    So post the broadcast times of any Clown Masses that might be taking place in Ireland over the next little while. I hear they get a bit lean in Lent, but they experience a surge of exuberance around Easter.

    I’ll be watching for times.

    #769685
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    Hartwell Church in Buckinghamshire, by Henry Keene, completed in 1756 is also an important early example of the progress of the gothic revival in England. It is basically an octagon with two towers. Unfortunately, it has been allowed to fall into disrepair and it has lost its plaster fan-vault ceiling:

    #769686
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    Here is a new chapel, dedicated to St. Rita, recently build in Mayshiel, East Lothian, Scotland, by Graig Hamilton with sculpture by Alexander Stoddart.

    Architect
    Craig Hamilton

    This chapel adjoins a house that Craig Hamilton designed and is a tour de force of contemporary ecclesiastical design and an exciting fusion of art and architecture. It takes the form of a small Italian chapel, with the west façade enlivened by Michaelangelesque detailing and a bronze bust of St Rita by Alexander Stoddart, who will also be producing life-size figures of St Augustine and St Nicholas. The commission included the design of almost all the interior fittings including the silver communion set, the tabernacle, the altar, the pews, the font, the consecration candelabra, the priest’s chair and the organ.

    From the detail of this chapel (which accomodates c.40 people) it is more than clear that Mr. Hamilton was extremely well advised – and it shows. Note for instance that the coffered ceiling of the nave (modelled on that of the Pantheon in Rome) is without gilding while that part of the ceiling over the sancturay is distinguished by the gilding of the coffering; while I cannot see clearly enough from the pictures, it is at least evident that the altar is raised on at least two steps of not three above the floor of the nave; a sancturay lamp is hang8ing in an appropriate position; a altar rail and gates have been installed -curiously while the Midleton oral Hearing last year Professor O’Neill could not think of a modern church with altar rails these were just then being erected; the tabernacle is centred on the altar and both are on the central axis of the chapel; also, it is quite extraordinary that all of the fittings and furnishings should have been commissioned from the same architect -and even more extraordinary that consecration candelabra (now almost never seen in Ireland) should have been included in the garniture.

    Can some one explain to me why the miserable lot of fraudsters running around Ireland wrecking anything they can lay hands on were never trained to be able to produce something like this?

    #769687
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    Here is a link to Craig Hamilton’s webpage:

    http://www.craighamiltonarchitects.com/

    And some examples of Alexander Stoddart’s work:

    http://www.alexanderstoddart.com/

    #769688
    Rhabanus
    Participant
    Praxiteles wrote:
    Here is a new chapel, dedicated to St. Rita, recently build in Mayshiel, East Lothian, Scotland, by Graig Hamilton with sculpture by Alexander Stoddart.

    Architect
    Craig Hamilton

    This chapel adjoins a house that Craig Hamilton designed and is a tour de force of contemporary ecclesiastical design and an exciting fusion of art and architecture. It takes the form of a small Italian chapel, with the west fa&#231]

    What a masterpiece! How delightful to see the Catholic imagination alive and well in Scotland.
    Can scarcely wait to see the statuary by Alexander Stoddart.

    Kudos and palms to Architect Craig Hamilton.
    It’ clear who’s winning the culture war north of Hadrian’s wall.

    No coincidence that St Rita is invoked as the Saint of Impossible Cases.

    #769689
    james1852
    Participant
    Praxiteles wrote:
    Here is a new chapel, dedicated to St. Rita, recently build in Mayshiel, East Lothian, Scotland, by Graig Hamilton with sculpture by Alexander Stoddart.

    Architect
    Craig Hamilton

    This chapel adjoins a house that Craig Hamilton designed and is a tour de force of contemporary ecclesiastical design and an exciting fusion of art and architecture. It takes the form of a small Italian chapel, with the west façade enlivened by Michaelangelesque detailing and a bronze bust of St Rita by Alexander Stoddart, who will also be producing life-size figures of St Augustine and St Nicholas. The commission included the design of almost all the interior fittings including the silver communion set, the tabernacle, the altar, the pews, the font, the consecration candelabra, the priest’s chair and the organ.

    From the detail of this chapel (which accomodates c.40 people) it is more than clear that Mr. Hamilton was extremely well advised – and it shows. Note for instance that the coffered ceiling of the nave (modelled on that of the Pantheon in Rome) is without gilding while that part of the ceiling over the sancturay is distinguished by the gilding of the coffering]
    Magnificent , at last a real ecclesiastical architect has emerged from the mire of the last 30 years. Let all the ‘bungalow’ architects that have destroyed our ecclesiastical heritage see for themselves what a real architect with talent can do.

    #769690
    ake
    Participant

    Kilkenny RC Cathedral. Just bear in mind that dozens of such masterpieces of painting have been just painted over as if they were a rusty gate! The full set, along with other Kilkenny pics is here http://www.flickr.com/photos/59301202@N00/sets/72157594527658365/
    [ATTACH]4318[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]4319[/ATTACH]

    #769691
    ake
    Participant

    St.Francis Xavier, Gardiner street.
    Full set: http://www.flickr.com/photos/58086761@N00/sets/72157594567519557/
    [ATTACH]4320[/ATTACH]

    #769692
    james1852
    Participant

    The first photo is of kilclaren church Feakle Co. Clare, decorated by us in 1932. The second is of the same church desecrated in 1982.

    [ATTACH]4324[/ATTACH]

    [ATTACH]4325[/ATTACH]

    #769693
    Praxiteles
    Participant

    In 1982, the primary promoter of liturgical vandalism in this part of Ireland was Michael harty, Bihsop of Killaloe. This gentleman fancied himself as a liturguist, though he knew nothing of the subject apart from teaching students in Maynooth the rubrics of the Mass, and duly wrecked the neo-gothic aspect of St. Mary’s Chapel in Maynooth College. I think the architect for that first assault and act of arch-vandalism may have been Liam McCormack.

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