reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches
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And here we have a snap of the smashing and dashing young Italian architect (on the left) who has become the architect for Cobh Town Council: Signor Architetto Don Pierangelo Cacciotti.
Welcome to Cobh. We look forward to a close and proficuous working relationship with you in addressing the the awful state of repairs of St. Colman’s Cathedral, Co. Co. Cork
@Praxiteles wrote:
The other significant problem with St. Colman’s Catheral, Cobh, Co. Cork, is the internal mosaic work. When the timber floor was recently replaced in the nave, no proper edging was installed to protect the edges of the mosaic on the walkways. The result of this has been an alarming decay of the mosaics, especially their edges which are constantly chipped by bences which have been place on to of the mosaic edges. Professor Cathal O’Neill proposed resolving the mosaic problem by ripping out about 50% of it -after which the remaining 50% would not be that noticeable.
What you are looking at on the floor are not the original mosaic tiles. The dark brown/red tiles which framed the original wooden floor in the Cathedral were lifted at the time of the installation of the underfloor heating. The original floor was a wood block floor made of oak, I think. This was claimed by the builder, who mounted a guard on it until he could take it away – it now graces some pubs in Kerry I think. A new floor of much inferior quality was then laid.
The original framing tiles were also thrown out. New tiles were laid and it is these which are now lifting all over the Cathedral.
This vandalism was carried out before the 2000 Planning Act and therefore no permission was needed. Unfortunately nothing will be done about the floor now as I would think that the cost of replacing the wood block floor with a modern equivalent would be prohibitive and this would be well down on the list of what needs to be done.
Regarding the mosaic on the floor, there must be experts somewhere you can lay mosaic flooring that will stay in place. They managed it all over the world for thousands of years.
@Gianlorenzo wrote:
What you are looking at on the floor are not the original mosaic tiles. The dark brown/red tiles which framed the original wooden floor in the Cathedral were lifted at the time of the installation of the underfloor heating. The original floor was a wood block floor made of oak, I think. This was claimed by the builder, who mounted a guard on it until he could take it away – it now graces some pubs in Kerry I think. A new floor of much inferior quality was then laid.
Unfortunately nothing will be done about the floor now as I would think that the cost of replacing the wood block floor with a modern equivalent would be prohibitive and this would be well down on the list of what needs to be done.
If a new floor is needed then the Cathedral will have a new floor and to a standard commensurate with the quality craftsmanship of the rest of the building.
@Gianlorenzo wrote:
Regarding the mosaic on the floor, there must be experts somewhere you can lay mosaic flooring that will stay in place. They managed it all over the world for thousands of years.
Please let us be careful about mosaic workers – especially those from the Cliveden “Restoration” Workshops in Maidenhead, Berkshire – it seems more like a knackers yard for mosaics. Remember Guy Edwards contribution to the MIdleton Oral Hearing:
http://www.foscc.com/downloads/oh/21.%20Guy%20Edwards%20Submission.pdf
@Praxiteles wrote:
If a new floor is needed then the Cathedral will have a new floor and to a standard commensurate with the quality craftsmanship of the rest of the building.
I sincerely hope that you are right.:)
And here are some more problems with the interior of St. Colman’s Cathedral that our young Italian friend might like to note: the interior stone work all nedds to be cleaned and the accumulated dust removed. This work wasoriginally planned as a stage in the “restoration” work on the Cathedral but was suspended in order to concentrate funds on the wrecking proposed by Professor Cathal O’Neill:
@Praxiteles wrote:
Let us hope our young Italian friend will indeed bring a broom to sweep away some of the cobwebs !!
Quite literaly, sweep away the cobwebs, restore the “junk” to its rightful place…etc.
As town architect for Cobh, I hope he takes a positive interest in the finest building in the town.. the great cathedral chruch of St Colman!A bit of local news. Some local ladies recently asked for volunteers to help in cleaning the Baptistry and the Mortuary Chapel and the responses ranged from:
That is the priests’ job to ‘I wouldn’t like to step on anyone’s toes’.
The people of Cobh do love their Cathedral but like everything else here, it is a matter of “someone else’s business”. They have supported the Restoration project very generously, and since the proposed re-ordering they have transferred that support to the Friends of St. Colmans and have been more than generous, but when it comes to actually doing something it is an attitude of “hands off”.
Donations by their nature are anonymous, showing up in the Cathedral and tidying up, is a little too public!!!!!
What a shame.:(@Gianlorenzo wrote:
A bit of local news. Some local ladies recently asked for volunteers to help in cleaning the Baptistry and the Mortuary Chapel and the responses ranged from:
That is the priests’ job to ‘I wouldn’t like to step on anyone’s toes’.
The people of Cobh do love their Cathedral but like everything else here, it is a matter of “someone else’s business”. They have supported the Restoration project very generously, and since the proposed re-ordering they have transferred that support to the Friends of St. Colmans and have been more than generous, but when it comes to actually doing something it is an attitude of “hands off”.
Donations by their nature are anonymous, showing up in the Cathedral and tidying up, is a little too public!!!!!
What a shame.:(I don’t agree, for more years than i wish to remember, the weekly collections are gathered and correct me if i’m wrong, were well supported or at least until the congregation learned of the non listening bishops intentions.
If the bishop is up to his arse in debt due to his grandiose schemes and now has little will or funds left for maintenance, cleaning and lighting… you cannot blame the people of Cobh.
do you now want people to pay or have paid willingly to the upkeep of the church and now by way of no harm clean it themselves too…… no it is not the prients job, but it is his job to manage it and administer publically donated funds correctly.
Don’t come blaming the people of Cobh, blame the management. If they can’t manage move on…piss or get off the pot……
@samuel j wrote:
I don’t agree, for more years than i wish to remember, the weekly collections are gathered and correct me if i’m wrong, were well supported or at least until the congregation learned of the non listening bishops intentions.
If the bishop is up to his arse in debt due to his grandiose schemes and now has little will or funds left for maintenance, cleaning and lighting… you cannot blame the people of Cobh.
do you now want people to pay or have paid willingly to the upkeep of the church and now by way of no harm clean it themselves too…… no it is not the prients job, but it is his job to manage it and administer publically donated funds correctly.
Don’t come blaming the people of Cobh, blame the management. If they can’t manage move on…piss or get off the pot……
No argument. The people of Cobh have been outstanding in their moral and financial support for the campaign against the re-ordering.
My point was that when it comes to the simple things like tidying up the Cathedral and taking the initiative re. cleaning etc. then it is hard to find volunteers.
The problem is that the Steering Committee took a decision in 2001 to defer any further payments for restoration/maintenance until the ‘great’ re-ordering was in progress (they were so sure that they would win the day). And now we have a buiding in desperate need of major repair.
My quibble was with the small minded attitude as reiterated above which says that it is always someone elses job.
There are things that those who care can undertake in the Cathedral without recourse to architects; planners;
conservations experts; etc.
I love St. Colman’s and I will be cleaning it and getting rid of the extraneous debrit before Christmas.Gianlorenzo wrote:No argument. The people of Cobh have been outstanding in their moral and financial support for the campaign against the re-ordering.
My point was that when it comes to the simple things like tidying up the Cathedral and taking the initiative re. cleaning etc. then it is hard to find volunteers.
The problem is that the Steering Committee took a decision in 2001 to defer any further payments for restoration/maintenance until the ‘great’ re-ordering was in progress (they were so sure that they would win the day). And now we have a buiding in desperate need of major repair.
My quibble was with the small minded attitude as reiterated above which says that it is always someone elses job.
There are things that those who care can undertake in the Cathedral without recourse to architects]I take your point that it is hard to get volunteers and probably something more symptomatic of the times we live in and not any unique to cleaning the cathedral. However I do strongly feel that the Bishop has alienated so many with his total disregard to the voice of the people of cobh that it will be hard to recover this trust. His methodology in the re-ordering was so heavy handed, it gave the distinct impression that the congragation should have no say and should not interfere in his chruch matters.
The damage he has done was not just physical…. and I share you’re concerns at state of repair of the cathedral… but should someone not be held responsible for this mess…… And I don’t think the people of Cobh should be first in line in the sacrificial lamb queue….
The Diocese of Cloyne has just published its Diocesan Directory for 2007 and provides the list of those serving on the Cloyne Historic Churches Advisory Committee. We are told that this committee has been established in “compliance with Planning Act 2000 (sic) without mentioning section or number of the act.
The following are those presently sitting on the Cloyne HACK:
1. Canon S
@Praxiteles wrote:
The Diocese of Cloyne has just published its Diocesan Directory for 2007 and provides the list of those serving on the Cloyne Historic Churches Advisory Committee. We are told that this committee has been established in “compliance with Planning Act 2000 (sic) without mentioning section or number of the act.
The following are those presently sitting on the Cloyne HACK:
1. Canon Séan Cotter, aged c.70 parish priest of Charleville.
2. Sr. Cabrini Delahunty, aged c. 80, retired lecturer in psychology at UCC.
3. Rev. Robert Forde, aged 82, retired parish priest of Milford.
4. Mr. Dick Haslam, aged c. 80, retired County manager for Limerick (1970-1988).
5. Mr. John Lynch, an architect based in Donoughmore and responsible for the wreckage of the interior and the palladian sancturay of Killavullen church and for its refitting in a style of blank buddhist anonymity.
6. Fr. Daniel Murphy, aged c.38, a liturgical “expert” who recommended the whole scale destruction of the interior of St. Colman’s Cathedral in a discredited document entitled Liturgical Requirements.
7. Mr. Peter Murray, aged 51,director of the Crawford Art Gallery in Cork.
8. Mons. Denis Reidy, aged 71, parish priest of Carrigtwohill, Co. Cork, and eminence grise behind the whole escapade to wreck Cobh Cathedral .
9. Canon John Terry, aged 72, parish priest of Kanturk, Co. Cork who is not known for his regular contributions to Appollo but acts as “chairperson” of the Cloyne HACK.
10. Mr. Alex White, aged c. 70, an architect better known for having built, among other things, some holiday cottages in West Cork.Apart from Sr. Cabrini Delahunty and Mr. Peter Murray, none of these people lives in Cobh.
Mr. Dick Haslam and Mr. Alex White live in Cork -outside of the diocese of Cloyne.Clearly, with a very singular exception, we are dealing with a committee that would have rivalled the gerentocracy of post Maoist China!
A few elder lemons there alright, no wonder they unanimously endorsed the plan for the Cathedral wreckage as they may well have been in dotage. Are you sure its not the Cloyne Pre-historic Derisory Committee
@samuel j wrote:
I take your point that it is hard to get volunteers and probably something more symptomatic of the times we live in and not any unique to cleaning the cathedral. However I do strongly feel that the Bishop has alienated so many with his total disregard to the voice of the people of cobh that it will be hard to recover this trust. His methodology in the re-ordering was so heavy handed, it gave the distinct impression that the congragation should have no say and should not interfere in his chruch matters.
The damage he has done was not just physical…. and I share you’re concerns at state of repair of the cathedral… but should someone not be held responsible for this mess…… And I don’t think the people of Cobh should be first in line in the sacrificial lamb queue….
Please read again what I said. The people of Cobh are not responsible for the current state of the Cathedral. They have donated over 1.3 million Euros to the Restoration Fund. The Steering Committee and the Trustees are the ones responsible. Full Stop….
What my original point was that despite all that there are times that people have to take things into their own hands. People cannot, unforunately, decide how their money is spent, but we can just go in and do what we can, when we see a need.
My great wish is that the people of Cobh would become very very angry regarding the money they have donated and how it is not being spent.@Gianlorenzo wrote:
Please read again what I said. The people of Cobh are not responsible for the current state of the Cathedral. They have donated over 1.3 million Euros to the Restoration Fund. The Steering Committee and the Trustees are the ones responsible. Full Stop….
What my original point was that despite all that there are times that people have to take things into their own hands. People cannot, unforunately, decide how their money is spent, but we can just go in and do what we can, when we see a need.
My great wish is that the people of Cobh would become very very angry regarding the money they have donated and how it is not being spent.Take your point….. and fully agree on your comment on how it is not being spent
The Steering Committee and the Trustees are the ones responsible. Full Stop….Oh yes
People cannot, unforunately, decide how their money is spent, – and why not….okay I know what you mean in this case but what can people do formally to ask why …… we see from todays news on Charlie Haughey what happens when no ones asks…..
@samuel j wrote:
Take your point….. and fully agree on your comment on how it is not being spent
The Steering Committee and the Trustees are the ones responsible. Full Stop….Oh yes
People cannot, unforunately, decide how their money is spent, – and why not….okay I know what you mean in this case but what can people do formally to ask why …… we see from todays news on Charlie Haughey what happens when no ones asks…..
The good people of Cobh have been heroic in their financial giving, as well as in their moral support for the reclamation, preservation, and conservation of their fair cathedral. The vigorous defence of the cathedral by the Friends of St Colman’s Cathedral was another outstanding witness to the Faith and a vindication of the generations who built and worshipped in that worthy dwelling of the Most High.
This next remark may seem naive at first glance, but please consider it carefully, for it comes from experience (school of hard knocks). The good folk who, as a rule, would be more than willing to roll up their sleeves and pitch into some heavy-duty cleaning may well have a mighty good reason for holding back until someone in authority officially indicates a particular direction. You see, volunteer cleaning crews, despite their best intentions and meticulous care for the fabric, are rarely up to the kind of professional cleaning job that really ought to be done.
The extent of the neglect and incipient decay, evident in the splendid photographs provided earlier, suggests to me that even a superficial cleaning of the walls, windows, floors, etcetera, really requires the services of a fully-licensed (and insured) professional cleaning crew. In the case of at least one beautiful but neglected Victorian-Gothic church (on this side of the pond) that received a cleaning from its willing volunteers, they could reach only so high on extension ladders. Consequently a line of contrast went all round the church. Below the line, the wall was nice and clean]the proper kind of insurance[/I] is the correct solution to the cleaning problem.
The cathedral clergy [and that quorum hircorum antiquorum] ought to be hounded to get this necessary reparation under way.
The collection of anziani on that board posted by Prax is a real hoot! Is it actually the case that a committee of dotards with one 38-year-old loose cannon (canon-in-the-making??) constitutes the pride of Cloyne? Heavens to Murgatroyd!!!
Time for a good stiff wind to blow through the diocese of Clyone and take out the flotsam and jetsam of Carrigtwohill as well as the other timeservers.
What a reflection of the bishop’s judgement.
A thorough profession cleaning, much as it might be needed, is not going to happen in the short term.
What I was speaking about was a dusting down and cleaning of the Baptistry and Mortuary Chapels (which do not seem to be included in the regular cleaning rota) for Christmas, i.e. getting rid of some of the junk.
We have done similar work in the other chapels in the Cathedral over the years. The administrator has no problems with us undertaking this work.
The only reason I mentioned it at all is that I was somewhat taken aback with the reaction I got from some of the most supportive and loyal members of the congregation when we asked for help in this undertaking.
It really is a minor point, but disheartening in that even though there is great support for the campaign to preserve the Cathedral, that doesn’t necessarily translate in willingness to do anything positive.
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