Removal of Street Furniture

Does any know why on earth this street
was redone? Since half the street is
taken up by the rare bare side of a
shopping centre, it didn’t appear to
be a natural candidate for renovation.
Did someone from the Gaiety theatre
twist some arms somewhere?

As it is, the fountain is absolutely
pathetic, resembling some kind of
urinal. I presume the bowl is meant to
faint dribble of water emanating
from it, but most of the water actually
runs down the street, making the fountain
look even more like a broken drain.

Amazingly enough, this calamity
took at a year or more to create.
Who was responsible for it?
And why?

P.

AND, considering the critisisms levied at Grafton St over its dated red cobble/brickwork, why on earth have they just laid it the whole way down Sth Kings St?
(Don’t say to match Grafton please!)

I had not noticed that the coffin looking boxes were being removed, but if they are it is probably due to their popularity with skaters. When they were instaled they were just left bare, but metal pipes were soon added to them in an effort to stop skaters from using them. That street was perfect for them, with the granite seats outside the Gaeity, the banks below the windows of the Eircom building and the black boxes. But as usual anything which occurs in urban areas which differs from the original design intention is curbed. It is a pity as it gave the street a vibrancy at night when there were no shoppers to sit on them.
Incidently, I think there was a rumour that the shopping centre was going to have some shops open up on to that street as part of its redevelopment. There was a Frank McDonald article about it in the Irish Times about 2 years ago or so.

I decided to go and have a look for the big blocks of stone. I cannot believe that they are all gone. They were the only new pieces of street furniture which looked of any interest on that street, and they were functional too.

Good point about the fountain, it is ridiculous. There was one all by its self across the road at the top of South William Street, is it still there or has it been taken too. I must say if they are doing nothing with them I would be more than happy to have one.

I’ve emailed them to find out.

Don’t worry, I was really only joking about having one, but if they were to deliver it I would accept. More imporantly, I wonder how much it has cost to have them designed, built, istalled, then to have anti-skate devices added and of course finally, to have them removed?

I got in touch with the Street furniture and infrastructure unit of the Dublin City Council. This is the reason which was given for the removal of the black benches:

“due to the anti-social behavior that emanated from the people that congregated there, plus the attraction to this area at the black benches of skateboard users, the
shops on the street requested that the benches were removed and after
inspection and consultation it was decided to remove them by the engineer in charge.”

A very well thought out scheme and so properly project managed….Im sure you’ll agree.

The next question to ask is what all that space they have created will be for? Sitting down and watching the world go by is obviously out of the picture. Enjoying the fountain….

How dare people actually interact with their environment and socialise outside the walls of a pub and as for those those dangerous children… I bet those peski kids on their rollerboards were even sober. China have very similar laws on social gatherings.

Quite. Why are skateboarders viewed in such a bad light. It a bit noisy and they have a tendancy to be oblivious to pedestrians but they aren’t generally an antisocial bunch. We had this debate before regarding the Wolfe Tone Park on Jervis Street. The same complaints were put forward about the uses people were making for the area there.

I think it was a case of creating a public space as long as the people using it were a certain type of “public” and only used the area for what was shown in the artists impression prior to the areas construction.

Skaters are often seen as being destructive, but what they are doing is actually more creative than anything else. I agree with you Bluefoam, they were more than likely sober!!!! I am sure that is because they have not seen ads for alcohol in a while as opposed to doing something else with their free time other than drink!!!!!!!!?????????

They are building skateparks at the moment, definitely one in Lucan and possibly one other.
There is no way skaters should be allowed to use street furniture. It’s noisy, chips away stone and scores metal and dangerous for pedestrians.

Originally posted by kefu
There is no way skaters should be allowed to use street furniture. It’s noisy, chips away stone and scores metal and dangerous for pedestrians.

It is fair to say that they chip away at the stone, this is however normally quite minimal and normally all that is left are black marks from the wax which they rub on the surface to allow them slide along. Last year whilst studying this phenomenon I found one area where the skaters had actually attached protective metal to stop the wooden benches wearing down. Although they make noise I still think that they are a healthy addition to city life. The noises they make sound better than that of a truck or a car and I have not heard of any pedestrian being seriously injured by a skateboarder.

One of the main criticisms voiced by residents of Celebration, in a BBC documentary recently, was lack of public space for skating.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/livingwithwalt.shtml

It’s a very interesting listen anyway – paper autumn leaves anyone?

On the other side of the issue, a pretty new set of wooden planter/bench units have been set up in Cow’s Lane (or Cows’ Lane, as the case may be) over the past few weeks. So there’s still somebody working for the city who understands that people out for a day on the town like to have places where they can sit down.

Isn’t DCC’s aversion to skaters more to do with potential claims from the parents of kids with cracked heads and broken limbs?

Originally posted by phil

It is fair to say that they chip away at the stone, this is however normally quite minimal and normally all that is left are black marks from the wax which they rub on the surface to allow them slide along. Last year whilst studying this phenomenon I found one area where the skaters had actually attached protective metal to stop the wooden benches wearing down. Although they make noise I still think that they are a healthy addition to city life. The noises they make sound better than that of a truck or a car and I have not heard of any pedestrian being seriously injured by a skateboarder.

nothing short of Vandalism
they should be billed for repair/cleaning (or their parents)

Yes that wax is lovely stuff, great to sit on and even better when it gets ground into your clothes – thanks skater-dude

What is the story with the water feature on South King Street? The three occasions I have seen it it was only working 1 out of 3. Its not great – a bit of a non-event – but when it was on it looked like a proper feature. DCC seem to have a thing about fountains… the quite attractive fountain on Dame Street and the one in front of the Custom House are never working. I contacted DCC once about this and they said they were the propoerty of OPW, who said they were the responsibility of Duchas, who said they were the responsibility of DCC. Of course no one said ‘Oh yeah thats a good idea, I’ll see what I can do’…. Its not that feckin difficult!

The story with the fountain, according to a council official, is that the wind is blowing the water outside the drainage system – the system having been put there to catch the water. So the water is blowing onto the footpath and the council is promising to deal with that.
The whole thing is modelled on a jet fountain in Paris, apparently. (I bet that one works better) The water is designed to go 1.5 metres in the air, and be caught by the drainage. But they never factored in the wind…

Incidentally here’s a piece on the street furniture situation that appeared in the Sunday Times:

SKATEBOARDERS have struck again. Dublin city council has been forced to remove four granite seats from recently pedestrianised South King Street because the skaters were making such a nuisance of themselves to passers-by.
First the council installed anti- skateboard bars around the already graffiti-covered benches near the Gaiety Theatre. The skateboarders still did their stunts. So the council reluctantly decided to remove the benches, which cost about €10,000, and they are now in storage. “It’s a bad defeat for pedestrianisation,” one council official admitted.

Skateboarders are an increasing menance in cities. Dun Laoghaire and Cork have specific problems, and the Bank of Ireland in Baggot Street, Dublin, is beset by them. The Central Bank had to put a big railing around its building to deter the baseball-cap-backwards brigade. This appears to be the first time that street furniture designed for general use has had to be removed because of the nuisance.

Plans are being discussed to set up dedicated skateboard parks, including one in Lucan — high time for one in Dublin. Once they are in place, skateboarding on streets should be made illegal, with hefty fines for offenders.

What menace are they? I find they add much needed life to the streets. It’s a great hobby and should be encouraged. So what if they slide on a seat rather than sit on it – at least they’re out about and using them. Its nice to sit and watch them too. All you need is a a few more seats not less then everybody can share.
Skaters as a street culture seems to get along with others on the whole and I much prefer to see this kids skating than the other parts of youth culture such as aimless hanging about bored waiting for a fight. You should give a bit of thought to what you want teenagers (mostly) to do in town. Dublin culture is very drink focused and that’s not a good thing. The other alternatives of things to do in town are shopping and cinema. both of which are also expensive. Are kids to have any presence in our cities?
I agree that dedicated skate parks should be established but these should be seen as a parallel activity to the street.
Lighten up and try and keep the skater community vibrant. It’s good for the city!

s middle position is the only reasonalbe one here. its not such a bad hobby and its admirable they only ever try and do tricks they can’t do. it would be good for there to be a skate park in town, skate board parks are great to watch. on the other hand, they do make a mess of seats etc, they are frightening to some people, particularily old people for whom a fall is very serious and for people with children, its noisy. let them use some public area and design others to make skateboarding impossible, make sure there are always some part of parks where there is no skating.

A skate park in Lucan wouldn’t really fo anything for the city centre….

They should have converted Wofle Tone Park into a skate park in hindsight…

Originally posted by AndrewP
Isn’t DCC’s aversion to skaters more to do with potential claims from the parents of kids with cracked heads and broken limbs?

Not all State bodies have this aversion. The Broadcasting Commission have just moved into offices alongside the Grand Canal (on the road between Lower & Upper Mount Street) and every evening when I pass by, there is a hoard of skaters using the edge of the flower bed to skate along in full view of the seurity guard in the building.

Croake park would make a great skate ‘bowl’

As a 33 year old skater I’ve been dealing with this issue for more than half my life and there is a solution. The knee-jerk council and business reaction to skaters is generally to make everything non skate-able using skate stopper devices. Despite the breaking of their own planning regulations (Civic Offices) and preservation orders ( BOI baggot St) and the added danger these devices present they persevere with this regressive approach.
It doesn’t work , skatestopper devices are easily removed and skaters will allways addapt to whatever the street envoironment presents them with.
The answer to the problem as other citys like Barcelona and Auckland have shown is to skate-PROOF street furniture. This involves the addition of protective metal edgings to benchs curbs and street furniture.
Hence no need for curb wax , no wax on your clothes,no chips or splinters (skate trucks are aluminium which will not damage steel).
With no public skateparks in Dublin (theres only one in the whole country, in Waterford and it’s a disatarous case of bad design and lack of research and consultation) there is no choice but to street skate. Do DCC expect us to give up skateboarding? Cork city council certainly want that as they are trying to pass a bylaw banning skateboarding !!
As a skater I am biased , I think it’s the most enjoyable ,creative and worthwhile pursuits that anyone can possibly do and I fail to see how anyone can be small minded enough to think that it is something that should be banned!
Can someone please explain to me why rolling around on a lump of wood is a social evil that should be made illegal?
Every week kids get beaten up by irate security guards, threatened with arrest and have their boards confiscated by Gardai not to mention the hassle they get from druggies, drunks and the shiny tracksuit brigade.
Do they deserve this for becoming skateboarders?

I wouldn’t take it personally – its just that the current government are so PC and regressive that they are currently banning everything – skating, smoking, drinking late on Thursdays, fat taxes, etc etc.

That said, cycling on the pavement and jay-walking are both illegal as well, but I saw both on the way to work today

Its nothing to do with the current Government…. or any government. Its a Local Authority issue and the fact is nearly all LAs of whatever political hue are just not interested in providing facilities like these. In fact most LAs fail miserably when it come to providing any facilities at all… be it swimming pools, playgrounds, public toilets, community centres. Its a general ignorance of what a Council can achiie with adequate resources…which of course none of them have because there is no local taxation.

so shaggy, the thing that always struck me is that skateparks don’t have to be in parks, is that right? i mean, when this issue of putting a skatepark in the middle of dublin comes up, everyone gets fearful that that means quarter pipes in stephen’s green, but I always imagined that you could a skate park in places that are unsuitable as a public park, on top of a multistory car park for example. is that true, or do would you prefer part of a park at a cost to being somewhere less central?

The primary reason for opposition is insurance. Solve that one and things will change. Not overnight, but gradually.

Mind you, this website is obviously viewed by those in authority as after my last post, stating that skaters were using the railings outside the Broadcasting Commission with impugnity, they were gone that evening and haven’t returned.

Its nothing to do with the current Government…. or any government. Its a Local Authority issue

On one level true – that it is down to local authorities to implement, however the mindset of central government does trickle down to local authorities (don’t forget the dual mandate existed until recently) and the mindset of the current government is to legislate for everything but don’t provide any support to back up the legislation e.g. are we the only country in the world who would bring in penalty points for a raft of offences without a traffic corps to back it up? Banning skating in public without providing skateparks is the same

The main stumbling block is as ever insurance. Irish public bodies mutual (council insurance providers) are looking for a €25’000 a year premium with an excess of over €300’000 !!!!! The exess on the waterford park is only €5000. Why they are seeking such hugely different excesses between Dublin and Waterford I have no idea.
The other main problem is over estimation of costs. The Fingal County council feasability report on providing a skatepark in the borough quoted hugely inflated costs for the provision of a basic skatepark. I have written to them questioning where these figures came from but have had no reply.
Notjim you’re right that a skatepark doesn’t have to be in a park, there is skateparks in warehouses under motorway flyovers next to playing pitches under grandstands and in a multitude of various sites throughout the world. I do think that a mini ramp (small halfpipe ) would be an excellent idea for stephens green though ,it’d be something interesting and attractive for non skaters to watch too and a nicely built wooden ramp looks quite nice in a park.

Originally posted by Sue

Incidentally here’s a piece on the street furniture situation that appeared in the Sunday Times:

SKATEBOARDERS have struck again. Dublin city council has been forced to remove four granite seats from recently pedestrianised South King Street because the skaters were making such a nuisance of themselves to passers-by.
First the council installed anti- skateboard bars around the already graffiti-covered benches near the Gaiety Theatre. The skateboarders still did their stunts. So the council reluctantly decided to remove the benches, which cost about €10,000, and they are now in storage. “It’s a bad defeat for pedestrianisation,” one council official admitted.

Sue, I know it is quite a long time ago now but I was wondering if you by any chance remembered the date from which you got that quote from the Sunday Times? Also where does the quote end and your own points of view start again?

Thanks

Phil

Hi Phil,
From memory, that Sunday Times piece was published on July 6, 2003 in the Sue Denham column.
I’m not sure what you mean by when the quotes start. Here’s the entire piece. Quotes from officials are cleared marked.

SKATEBOARDERS have struck again. Dublin city council has been forced
to remove four granite seats from recently pedestrianised South King
Street because the skaters were making such a nuisance of themselves
to passers-by.

First the council installed anti-skateboard bars around the already
graffiti-covered benches near the Gaiety Theatre. The skateboarders
still did their stunts. So the council reluctantly decided to remove
the benches, which cost about Euro 10,000, and they are now in
storage. “It’s a bad defeat for pedestrianisation,” one council
official admitted.

Skateboarders are an increasing menance in cities. Dun Laoghaire and
Cork have specific problems, and the Bank of Ireland in Baggot
Street, Dublin, is beset by them. The Central Bank had to put a big
railing around its building to deter the baseball-cap-backwards
brigade. This appears to be the first time that street furniture
designed for general use has had to be removed because of the
nuisance.

Plans are being discussed to set up dedicated skateboard parks,
including one in Lucan – high time for one in Dublin. Once they are
in place, skateboarding on streets should be made illegal, with hefty
fines for offenders.

Thanks for that Sue, I was just wondering if it was all from the article or if you had added bits in yourself at the end.

Thanks again

Phil

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/5575556?view=Eircomnet

“Roche sets aside €1 million for skate parks
From:ireland.com
Wednesday, 18th May, 2005

The Government is to fund the building of skateboard parks in a pilot scheme announced by the Minister for the Environment Dick Roche this morning.

Mr Roche said he had set aside €1 million for the project and invited city and county councils tto submit expressions of interest.

“When these are evaluated, a number will be selected for funding,” Mr Roche said.

“I am asking local authorities to think outside the box and bring forward imaginative and innovative projects,” he added.

A spokeswoman for the Department of Environment told ireland.comthat skateboard facilities were “considerably more expensive” than playgrounds and could range in price from €200,000 to €1/2 million.

He also announced a further €2 million to local authorities for the provision of playgrounds, representing €60,000 for each city and county council. “

Any thoughts

I see that some of the (underused) tennis courts and some of the (neverused) Bowling green in City Council’s Bushy Park has been allocated for the skatepark development. An excellent first step.

Very good for terenure, but i’d love to see some proper city center locations being developed in this way. There was a consultation process (CC) not so long ago asking what types of obsacles etc people want to see. I didn’t see any published findings unfortunately but would be interested to see how street style fared vs a more traditional approach. Has anyone from this forum been actively involved??

1 million will not go very far on these types of projects. I can only hope Mr. Roche is having a laugh. I suspect he must be if he thinks 60k will provide even one playgound for a city council.

“skateboarding is not a crime” says the t-shirt but if the population was filled with middle aged housewives it oviously would be! I used to skate a bit myself and I can see both sides of the argument I have to agree with others that the anti-skating measures look bad and that its better to take on board the fact that skaters will be using the built enviroment and think about it at a design stage like some of our european counterparts. I have to say I thought wolftone park seemed better before the wooden tops went on the seats. I understand that the sight of skaters may put faer into the feable but the city is a place for everyone. There was an interesting piece written by -( http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1859734936/202-5808808-3984649 )ian borden I only read an excerpt but it seemed good.
When I was in the states a few years ago the town was a skate free zone and had a large skate park but to be honnest it only worked due to the heavy handedness of the cops! you never know it could be next on McDouall’s list!
Have to note here when the skaters left wolftone park that was when the drunken bums moved in and felt more at home! I know which I think are more seem more exciting and less dangerous !

Oh I forgot to mention that there is a place in drumcondra called ramp and rail which is a private indoor skatepark but riding street and looking at the built enviroment in a different way is inherent to skate culture so no matter what it will will never stop. Hence why most skate parks are designed to emulate the best bits (for skaters) of the built enviroment.

The insurance issue is only an issue because the skaters themselves are suing after they fall.
So before we immediately blame the insurance industry, if the skaters signed a waiver (of if indeed waivers had any legal standing) – that wouldn’t necessarily be an issue.
After all, if you’re involved in any physical activity, particularly one like skateboarding where you will fall and regularly, you can’t say you didn’t know the dangers.

Iain Borden is a good writer in general. His work on Skateboarding is particularly good. I think the issue of centrality is very important (as Lotts said) in designing spaces for skaters to use. I have some images of the space underneath Queen Elizabeth Hall on London’s South Bank, which is hugely popular with skaters (aswell as BMXers). I will try to post them at some stage.

The reason I think that centralitiy is important is that, quite simply, skaters like to come to the city centre to meet their friends etc, but also the idea of being able to display their tricks is important too. Many people walking along seem to stop to watch them and appreciate that, as Fergus says “skateboarding is not a crime”. They really liven up the space around the South Bank of the Thames, and without them that area under the Queen Elizabeth Hall would be totally vacant.

Kefu, where did you hear that the skaters sue?

http://www.oregonskateparks.com/Parks/Burnside.htm
heres a link about one of the most famous skateparks in the world it was built entirly by the local skaters themselves under a bridge in portland oregon ( it rains alot there too). its pretty cool. Don’t think we have a space in the city centre with the potential to achieve something simular unless we did as was previously suggested in using a multi-story carpark

Is there space under the Loop-Line Bridge on the north side of the river? (I know that is not really realistically ever going to happen)

I think that there are a number of issues to be considered in connection with any proposed Skate park, firstly it must be of a sufficient scale to accomodate different skill levels, the last thing you want are kids and very skilled skaters colliding due to lack of space. Secondly they must be in central locations if the million euro is to be spent it should probably be spent in Dublin and Cork/Galway. Thirdly they must be in locations that are capable of screening from the streets for obvious safety reasons. Does anyone know of any sites that might fit the bill?

What isn’t clear is if the Department will assist the local authorities with the annual insurance costs.

Large scale skate parks are indeed needed, but in many cases all the skaters want is a small place for street skating. Something based on Wolfe Tone Park. Also, I think it is important to mention that no matter how many parks are built skaters will still want to use other public space. It is part of its nature to be adventurous and search out new spots etc. I used to love watching them and the roller-bladers use the coffin benches on South King Street. I think they add a vibrancy to urban life.

Anyway, I just tried to add an image there but it is too big. Does anyone know how to reduce the file size of images?

Thanks

Phil

save as version vith and reset the file size to desired in new version?

Thanks for that Fergus. I will give it a go.

Phil

Nice link there for the skateboards too btw,

Brian.

Ennis Town Council adopted new bye laws yesterday which ban cycling, skateboarding and rollerblading from its parks and open spaces.
That’s great lad’s. Well done. :rolleyes:
An article on this in the Indo also notes that Ennis has yet to provide even one cycle lane.

Indeed , The visionary decision by Ennis town Council of passing a by-law banning skateboarding , cycling and rollerblading goes a long way to help in the campaign against childhood exercise. A far too high proportion of the youth poulation of the town are involved in sport and exercise and something needs to be done about it. Some of these kids aren’t even fat never mind obese and others have failed to apply themselves to the time honoured traditions of smoking ,drinking and petty crime. Congratulations Ennis town councillors , those €1200 fines will soon have the kids back indoors watching telly and raiding the drinks cabinet. 😮 :confused: 😡

I and a few others have been heavily involved in trying to get quality skateparks built. With only public skatepark in the country and a very poorly designed one at that (waterford) the central location is not a priority at the moment. I’ve travelled to Australia and NZ to skateparks so an extra few miles isn’t gonna bother many skaters. Currently we have to travel to the UK to skate concrete parks.
We regard the design of this first wave of parks to be the most important key to their success. We have in fact discussed the posibility of some of the people behind the Burnside Oregon project (mentioned earlier) coming over to lend their expertise. The style of park we reccomend is one built in concrete incorporating both bowl and street features. Heres an example of one allready built in Dublin. Oh Em thats Dublin OHIO of course.
http://www.dublin.oh.us/quality/skatepark/

@shaggy wrote:

Indeed , The visionary decision by Ennis town Council of passing a by-law banning skateboarding , cycling and rollerblading goes a long way to help in the campaign against childhood exercise. A far too high proportion of the youth poulation of the town are involved in sport and exercise and something needs to be done about it. Some of these kids aren’t even fat never mind obese and others have failed to apply themselves to the time honoured traditions of smoking ,drinking and petty crime. Congratulations Ennis town councillors , those €1200 fines will soon have the kids back indoors watching telly and raiding the drinks cabinet. 😮 :confused: 😡

Yeah Shaggy you are right. They have some cheek attempting to use their brains and try something different to watching TV or playing video-games. Particularly something that involves getting outdoors. I suppose they will all just have to take up free-running instead. 😉

Dublin City plans for a skatepark threatened
……………………………………………………
Skateboarding is one of the fastest growing sports in Ireland, yet Ireland is the only country in Europe without proper public skateboarding facilities. As part of their sustainable development strategies many other countries have provided facilities for young people. With a youth population that is proportionally the highest in the EU, our capital city has the sum total of ZERO public skateparks. In this regard, Ireland is not only behind its European neighbours, but also many third world countries, including Peru, Brazil and Thailand.

This situation should be changing soon, as Dublin City Council plans for a skatepark in Bushy Park are well advanced, with a full budget in place. Bushy Park is an ideal site for such a facility, being the biggest park in South-Central Dublin and extremely well served by public transport.

HOWEVER – it may not happen.

Incredibly, at a time of grave concern over childhood health and obesity, we now have a situation where certain elected public representatives in the Dublin South Central area, who claim to represent the interests of young people, are campaigning AGAINST the City Council’s plans to provide a skatepark.

Please visit this website and sign the petition http://www.bushyskatepark.com
If you can help e-mail mailto:bushyskatepark@gmail.com

@kefu wrote:

The insurance issue is only an issue because the skaters themselves are suing after they fall.
So before we immediately blame the insurance industry, if the skaters signed a waiver (of if indeed waivers had any legal standing) – that wouldn’t necessarily be an issue.
After all, if you’re involved in any physical activity, particularly one like skateboarding where you will fall and regularly, you can’t say you didn’t know the dangers.

insurance isn’t an issue, it’s a smokescreen. Football is a physical activity where not only will you fall regularly but also may engage in repeated physical confrontation with others yet there is no problem with insurance there and quite rightly so