Regeneration of King’s Island ~ Saint Mary’s Park

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    • #710333
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      The Subject Site and its Environs

      The area of St. Mary’s Park is located on the northern half of King’s Island to the north of the known alignment of the city walls. The island is formed by the River Shannon to the north and west, and the Abbey River to the east and south. This area was originally accessed from the walled Englishtown in medieval times via a gate in the wall called Island Gate.

      Site Description

      The original site boundary comprises 40 hectares of the northern portion of King’s Island in the heart of Limerick City. It includes:

      • St. Mary’s Park: a 1930’s local authority housing Estate of 463 houses, of which 273 (59%) are privately owned, and 190 (41%) are local authority owned
      • A frontage of approximately 2 km on to the Shannon and Abbey rivers, with an embankment to control flooding that also functions as an attractive riverside walk
      • A Special Area of Conservation of 10.7 hectares along the eastern edge of the Island, fronting on to the Abbey River, which extends along the banks of the Abbey and Shannon rivers
      • Two soccer clubs on a combined site of 3 hectares, with short term leases from Limerick City Council
      • A military cemetery of 0.6 hectares dating from the 1850’s
      • A modest community centre in the south-west corner with planning permission for a crèche adjacent
      • Extensive open space that is low lying and generally neglected

      The Plan also takes into account the site’s relationship with the Heritage Precinct and the rest of Limerick City.

      Heritage Precinct

      The original settlement of Limerick grew up on the south of King’s Island. This is the historic core of the city, known as the ‘Heritage Precinct’, containing King John’s Castle, St. Mary’s Cathedral, old St. Munchin’s Church, the Courthouse and many other important historical features. The adjacent figure summarises the rich collection of ancient buildings and sites in the southern part of the Island which form part of the Precinct.

      Within the site of St. Mary’s Park Estate there is a recorded archaeological monument, known as a starshaped fort, which dates to the 17th century. Although the precise location is not known, from maps studied, it is expected to be lying under the existing 1930’s housing, in the vicinity of the junction of St. Ita’s Street and St. Brendan’s Street.

      This site is classified as a “bastion”, and is protected under the National Monuments Acts. It is also on the record of protected structures, as listed in the City Development Plan, and is therefore further protected under planning legislation. Whilst the fort is clearly no longer visible, its foundations may still exist.

      The military cemetery and attendant cottage at the southern end of the site (between St. Mary’s Park and Assumpta Park) date to the mid 19th Century, and whilst neither feature is formally protected, they form an important use of the area at that time.

      The site has high potential for archaeological remains. This is because of the history of the general area with respect to Viking influence, the activities that would normally be conducted close to the walls of a medieval city and the existence of the star-shaped fort over a period of several hundred years. The shoreline of the site also has high potential for underwater, inter-tidal or riparian archaeological remains.

      Source: Limerick Regeneration Agency ~ Masterplan St. Mary’s Park

    • #805618
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      That Island site would have made a great location for the university, would it not?

    • #805619
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      It would definitely have solved the problem of the university’s alienation from the city centre anyway. It would be fantastic to have UL right in the heart of the city! Aesthetically speaking, Plassey isn’t exactly a bad location either I suppose!

      One thing is for certain though, Kings Island definitely deserves better than a council housing estate. The area has enormous potential!

    • #805620
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Such an important project. If it is done right it will completely alter the city.

      Any idea on when the proposed regeneration is due to start?

    • #805621
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @Tuborg wrote:

      One thing is for certain though, Kings Island definitely deserves better than a council housing estate. The area has enormous potential!

      The plan seems to aspire to create balanced communities including a mixed tenure of housing. Potential success of such ambitions aside, is this not the type of urban future we should be trying to plan for in areas such as these?

    • #805622
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @phil wrote:

      The plan seems to aspire to create balanced communities including a mixed tenure of housing . . . . . is this not the type of urban future we should be trying to plan for in areas such as these?

      I agree with that phil, it’s just a question of whether this site is more special than that.

      I only mentioned the university idea, because it occured to me as a missed opportuniy, and it appears to be one of those examples of how we don’t really ‘plan’ in this country.

      ‘Planning’ is usually interpreted, by our local authorities, as a process of restricting development by a series of zonings on a map with accompanying prescriptive texts. ‘Planning’ in it’s original meaning of predicting a better future and working out a strategy for getting there, almost never seems to happen. If it did, I would be surprised if a glorious site like the northern half of King’s Island, wouldn’t have featured prominantly in any strategy. This is perhaps one of the ways in which the autocratic city scores over the democratic city, you just can’t beat rolling out the map and moving the pieces around until they’re all in the optimum position.

      The optimum position for a university, in a city of Limerick’s size, has to be within touching distance of the historic core where the synergy between city and university is at it’s greatest (and most bohemian). The King’s Island site would seem to have offered all of that and still have had plenty of room left for playing fields, rowing clubs etc. etc. The bookshops, the cafés, the buzz, the energy, the bicycles, all of that seems to melt away when the college is located miles out of the city centre. If this isn’t quantifyable on a City Council balance sheet, then maybe there’s something to Brian O’Hanlon’s thesis that we need new economic models for urban regeneration!

      On that star-shaped fort, the accounts of the sieges auggest that it may have been one of the earthworks erected under the direction of the French military engineers in the lull between the first and second siege. The map of the 1691 siege shows the fort to be located towards the top end of the island.


      What a beautiful pastry the ‘Irish Town’ makes!

    • #805623
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Gunter, I have no reason to dispute any of what you are saying regarding the location of a university in relation to a town or city in theory. However, I would worry about a tendency to label somewhere as being somewhat ‘special’ to the extent that it can only be used for a particular land-use which is assumed to ‘fit-in’ with the status given to it. I feel one of the greatest challenges to contemporary planning is getting past preconceived notions regarding the suitability of particular areas to particular land-uses/ways of life. The social reality of the current situation is the context in which this present plan is being made. This, I feel, cannot be ignored.

    • #805624
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @phil wrote:

      The social reality of the current situation is the context in which this present plan is being made. This, I feel, cannot be ignored.

      That’s fair enough, as far as it goes!

      It does look like a decent plan, but essentially it’s the same plan that we see for the regeneration of Michael’s Estate in Inchicore, or O’Deveney Gardens.

      All of these plans, (with or without the PPP process), take a socially deprived council housing estate, knock it down, and replace it with a bigger, mixed tenure development, based on the reasonable premise that the new mixture of social and private housing will address the social depravation, and that the creation of blocks of private development will cover the cost of rebuilding the social housing content.

      Again that’s all fair enough . . . . except that the King’s Island site isn’t Inchicore, or a land bank behind the North Circular Road, it’s the other half of Limerick’s original island settlement, the undeveloped bit, outside the medieval walls, and cities don’t often get two bites at a cherry like that.

      It’s just an observation, I don’t want to start a row!

    • #805625
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @gunter wrote:

      It’s just an observation, I don’t want to start a row!

      ha ha 🙂 I try not to get into rows here, but sometimes my typing may seem more aggressive than what I am actually thinking. If that is the case I apologise.

      Don’t worry, I do not buy hook line and sinker in to the present means of urban regeneration either. There are a wide range of issues that are often taken for granted in such plans, which would take up too much time to go into here. There is certainly an opportunity to integrate the area into the remainder of the city. However, at a risk of repeating myself, my original comment was made based on my belief that the current social context must be taken into account in whatever plans are made. This is fundamental to any urban regeneration strategy.

    • #805626
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @Tuborg wrote:

      An unusual event occurred over the last week or so with two developments given the go ahead in the “medieval” area of the city! The reason its unusual is because Limerick City Council have shot down a considerable number of applications especially in the Nicholas Street area over the last couple of years.

      There has been a lot of noise over the last decade or so about developing Nicholas Street as a tourist attraction, however very little has actually been achieved. The area is currently plagued by vacant premises and wholesale neglect.

      The major problem seems to be a lack of a coherent strategy for the rejuvenation of the area. There needs to be some kind of stimulus to attract businesses to locate here. Maybe the Council could reduce the commercial rate or better still waive it for a certain period?

      Anyway, the first site is on Bridge Street, just across the road from St Mary’s Cathedral.

      08249

      Permission for the demolition of a single storey structure and the construction of a 4 storey office development and ancillary works to site adjacent to the former Post Office.

      Site adjacent to former Post Office
      Bridge Street
      Limerick.

      @Tuborg wrote:

      The other location is on Nicholas Street itself. Again it’s in close proximity to St Mary’s Cathedral so appropriate and sensitive design is essential.

      This site has been derelict for a good number of years and apparently the existence of a medieval fireplace has delayed its redevelopment. I’m not sure what the current status of this fireplace is or indeed if the site contains any other items of archaeological interest.

      Anyone know anything about this?

      0833

      Development of office building consisting of a public foyer with gallery space and cafe area to ground floor and offices to upper level. The site is noted as an RMP (Record of Monuments & Places) Ref: LI 005-017 as described and protected under the National Monuments Act 1930 – 1994

      36-39 Nicholas Street
      King’s Island
      Limerick City

      @dave123 wrote:

      Thanks for the link’s and pics. I actually enquired about that site, it’s one of the few remaining prime sites on Nicolas street to be redeveloped.

      I must agree with you on the the issue with Nicolas street been a tourist area. it has real potential. Many people by-pass this part of town. Especially since the Northern Relief road was built and the existing street was de trunked completely and made one way. The street need’s good access and sign posting. It’s one of the oldest street’s in the city (if not the oldest part of town). It should be noted.

      I live in Dublin, and many of my friends have never seen that part of town. The medieval area. Most people, say oh limerick is just a big block of wide streets. But this is one of the first English towns in the country, with alot of the charactor and architecture intact.As a kid Nicolsas street used to be a thriving area, and traffic used to be horrendus in the summer! Mainly because it was the only East to the North and west artery over to Clare, if you avoided the city centre route. Now thankfully the Relief road adjacent was built.

      Anyone seen what the 4 story development would look like? Hope it’s good. This part of town is taking off literally. The newish development on the relief road and Corbally are pretty impressive IMO.

      The bridge site looks really promising for ripe fresh redevelopment renaicannce (sorry for spelling) of this street 🙂

      @jpsartre wrote:

      Its a funny thing but I took a walk down Nicholas street today and along Mary street for the first time in I don’t know how long. It looked completely different to how I remembered it as a kid, especially Mary street (I drive down it all the time but some how I don’t notice the changes when I’m driving.)

      I recall looking at a site notice in a window there on Bridge street and the application was made, I think, in June or July so I just assumed either the app. had been knocked back or the developer/builder decided to pull out. The site’s proximity to the road would affect its commercial viabilty I would imagine.

      Of the other site on Nicholas street I only know what you’ve already made ref. to viz. the discovery of a mediaeval fireplace held up the project. (the cafe thing is interesting. In 1785 a ‘cafe’ named the Merchant’s Coffee House was opened next door to the Exchange on Nicholas street according to Georgian Limerick Vol II. Just a thought.)

      Personally I can’t see Nicholas street attracting any serious investment until the perceived threat from elements within St. Mary’s Park is addressed. Stix is a real hoodie hang out that does nothing for the area. Also, and this is a personal view, I don’t like the road surfacing. They’ve use granite, a quality material, on the footpaths which is great but the concrete setts on the road are horrible. Simple as that. I’d rather they used asphalt. If Nicholas st. and Mary street were paved with a limestone or even the tegula favoured by Nicholas de Jong (although I still prefer stone) it would really lift the area imo, I don’t think you can underestimate the impact of quality paving materials.

      @gunter wrote:

      @jpsartre wrote:

      Originally Posted by jpsartre
      Of the other site on Nicholas street I only know what you’ve already made ref. to viz. the discovery of a mediaeval fireplace held up the project. (the cafe thing is interesting. In 1785 a ‘cafe’ named the Merchant’s Coffee House was opened next door to the Exchange on Nicholas street according to Georgian Limerick Vol II. Just a thought.)

      . . . . I believe the future of this city lies in preserving the little we’ve got left. The old neglected laneways and bow-ways in Limerick . . . . .

      I hope ye don’t mind an outsider getting involved, but since I spent the New Year in Limerick, I’m going to be like a kid with a new toy for the next few weeks.

      That scrolled fireplace is a beauty, but it seems to be just the tip of the iceberg as far as surviving historic fabric on Nicholas Street / Mary Street is concerned. The development of the gallery/coffee shop and offices at 36 – 39 Nicholas Street appears to have been given permission on 14 Dec, but I can’t get any hard information from the Planning Office website, or the architects (Healy & Partners) website.

      I don’t know what other people think, but to me there looks to be huge potential in the surviving fabric of Nicholas St. / Mary St. that just needs someone in the City Council to take it by the throat and guide the much needed regeneration towards the kind of contemporary re-expression of the scale and importance of this original medieval Main Street that could bring this great street back from the brink of misery.

      Almost every surviving building on the street exhibits some vestige or other of a previous, and much higher status, manifestation. There are finely cut stone dressings behind half the ground floor shopfronts/roller shutters and evidence of early 18th century red brickwork re-facings to numerous (apparently truncated) upper floors. On one of the derelict sites on Mary Street, you can see the broken remains of a barrel vaulted basement peeping through the rubble.


      Nicholas Street from the direction of the castle.

      There’s a big hoarding on a nearby derelict site heralding your entry into Limerick’s ‘Medieval Quarter’ ! I suppose that’s the first step.

      .

    • #805627
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      At long last it looks like we might be seeing the end of that derelict site at the corner of George’s Quay and Bridge Street.

      08493

      Permission for development which will consist of the redevelopment of a derelict site at No. 1 George’s Quay to provide for a 2 storey building which will include a ground floor delicatessen/sandwich bar. The proposed development makes provision to change the permitted use of the ground floor of No. 2 George’s Quay, permitted by 08/47 from coffee shop to form part of the Locke Bar. The Bridge Bar will be altered to allow for its amalgamation with the ground floor of the Locke Bar at No.’s 2 and 3 George’s Quay. The proposed development also consists of the amalgamation of the Bridge Bar, No. 1, No. 2 George’s Quay and the Locke Bar at first floor level to form a single restaurant and the provision of this restaurant will include minor alterations. The proposed development will include minor alterations to the existing facade of the Bridge Bar, ancillary signage and staff and storage facilities.

      Bridge Bar, Bridge Street and No.’s 1, 2 and 3 George’s Quay
      Limerick

      The existing Locke Bar is show in orange below with the buildings subject to the planning application marked in yellow.

      The second image dates from around 1950, you can just about see the original corner building behind the fingerpost. It fell into dereliction in the 70s/80s and in recent years was used by the Locke Bar as a storage area.

      Hopefully we’ll eventually see some movement on the Bridge Street Motors site as well.

    • #805628
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      While you’ve clearly been waiting a very long time for this site to be redeveloped, and while I acknowledge that ‘The Lock Bar’ is a very well run operation . . . . going down the two storey route on this site is a fatal mistake imo.

      We do have to guard against the other extreme, the temptation to over-design corners, but, given the wonderful urban heritage of Georges Quay / Merchant’s Quay, and given that this is one of the entry points to the original urban core of the city, a redevelopment of decent urban scale has to be a prerequisite on this site, even if somebody’s arm has to be twisted to get it.

      Particularly in these recessionary times, pro-active intervention by the City Council may be necessary to put some vision on what a regeneration of ‘King’s Island’ could be and some vision on what the ideal form of future redevelopment of key sites, such as this one and indeed, the full lenght of Nicholas St. / Mary St. might be.


      The ‘Dutch Billy’ on the left is ‘The Locke Bar’
      of today, but without it’s top storey.

      And finally, as a new year’s resolution, somebody needs to start talking to Richard Costello about putting the top back on his building (The Locke Bar), personally I’d slip it in as a planning condition, in lieu of the financial contribution. 😉

    • #805629
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @gunter wrote:

      One key derelict site, no. 1 George’s Quay, on the corner with Bridge Street is the subject of a current planning application by the owners of the adjoining pub/restaurant, ‘The Locke Bar’, but again the proposed development is just a disappointing two storeys!

      I think we seriously need to get our heads around regenerating our historic urban cores in ways that do some justice to the scale and prestige of what went before. It’s bad enough that the whole of Merchant’s Quay, the other side of Bridge Street and the very site of the Exchange itself have all been absorbed into the ever expanding cemetery, without going totally suburban on key sites like this.

      A great high level view of Merchants Quay when it still had buildings on it and also showing the corner of George’s Quay with Bridge street, where the two storey corner building is now proposed.

      I found this fragment of a map of the Merchants Quay from 1840 and it shows very well how many houses that were replaced there by the Cathedral for its graveyard or by the City Corporation as public space.

      Clockwise:

      • Nicholas Street
      • Grid-Iron Lane (Exchange)
      • Bachelors Walk (Exchange)
      • Quay Lane (Bridge Street)
      • Merchants Quay
      • Bow Lane (Saint Augustine Place)

      I suppose as a by product of those clearings, it gave the city a clear view of its oldest building from the river but I doubt that this could be a justifiable reason to build just a two storey building at the corner of Bridge Street and George’s Quay.

    • #805630
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I had no idea Merchants Quay was once lined with houses. I just assumed that St Marys had a large site at their disposal.

      Today Merchants Quay is labelled a public space when in reality its effectively a car park, its hard to imagine that it was once a residential street stretching down to the entrance to the old City Gaol.

      @gunter wrote:

      While you’ve clearly been waiting a very long time for this site to be redeveloped, and while I acknowledge that ‘The Lock Bar’ is a very well run operation . . . . going down the two storey route on this site is a fatal mistake imo.

      We do have to guard against the other extreme, the temptation to over-design corners, but, given the wonderful urban heritage of Georges Quay / Merchant’s Quay, and given that this is one of the entry points to the original urban core of the city, a redevelopment of decent urban scale has to be a prerequisite on this site, even if somebody’s arm has to be twisted to get it.

      Theres no question that this site could take 3/4 storeys, indeed it would’ve been nice to have a cluster of larger scale buildings fronting onto the Abbey River here.

      Of course the problem with this current proposal is that as you go higher, you also get into dangerous territory as regards design quality etc. Also for some reason modern buildings dont do corners well. I wonder what type of finish they are proposing here, will it be brick like the original structure?

      Incidentally George’s Quay was once home to a terrace of four storey townhouses adjacent to Barrington’s Hospital. These buildings which I presume became tenements would have been demolished in the early years of the last Century. St Anne’s Vocational School (which was later home to the Limerick School of Art & Design) was built on this site in 1939.

    • #805631
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Saint Mary’s Park ~ 1930’3 / 1940’s

      The Saintly Streets of the Island Field named after Saint Munchin, Saint Brendan, Saint Columcille, Saint Senan, Saint Ita and Oliver Plunkett would bring a smile to many a Limerick person as the estate has earned itself a reputation where halos are somewhat in short supply. :rolleyes:

      With the then new political order in Land, the Irish Free State (1930’s) started its social building program to address the appalling housing conditions and I believe Saint Mary’s Park was the first such estate to be built in Limerick by the City Corporation.

      Seventy-five years on, and now these houses or more so the estate itself is to be regenerated. The Limerick Museum has a large set of photographs on Saint Mary’s Park from the 1940’s, which have a strong human touch. It would cool if this photo series were repeated again before the bulldozers move in.

      Opening of the Island Field Housing Estate, 30th May 1935. Minister Sean T. O’Kelly and Mayor Casey on platform, the Minister addressing a large crowd gathered in front of the new housing; the platform is flanked by the mace bearers. Source Limerick Museum

    • #805632
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @Tuborg wrote:

      At long last it looks like we might be seeing the end of that derelict site at the corner of George’s Quay and Bridge Street.

      The existing Locke Bar is show in orange below with the buildings subject to the planning application marked in yellow.

      The second image dates from around 1950, you can just about see the original corner building behind the fingerpost. It fell into dereliction in the 70s/80s and in recent years was used by the Locke Bar as a storage area.

      Hopefully we’ll eventually see some movement on the Bridge Street Motors site as well.

      When did Hogans bridge become Matthew Bridge ??

    • #805633
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @Griff wrote:

      When did Hogans bridge become Matthew Bridge ??

      Not sure what thats all about to be honest, I cant find any reference to it as Hogans Bridge.

      As far as I know it was dedicated to Fr. Theobald Mathew, the man responsible for the national temperance movement.


      Mathew Bridge, Rutland Street, Bridge Street, Limerick (NIAH)

      Triple-span flat road bridge, built between 1844-46. This bridge replaced an existing bridge called New Bridge which was constructed in 1762 linking Englishtown with the expanding and developing new town (Baal’s Bridge was for a long time the only eastern connection between the Englishtown to the north and the south of the Abbey River to Irishtown). The bridge, with its commodious flat deck and finely crafted stonework, was erected to the designs of William Henshaw Owen. The bridge was opened in July 1846 and the contractor was John Duggan.

    • #805634
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Further Information has been requested in the case of the corner site at Bridge Street/George’s Quay.

    • #805635
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Site adjacent to former Post Office, Bridge Street Limerick

      Four storey office development near the junction with Nicholas Street.

    • #805636
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      36-39 Nicholas Street, King’s Island

      This proposed office development (with ground floor gallery & cafe space) has been appealed to An Bord Pleanala

      Its certainly a pretty risky, ultra modern design in a sensitive setting. Materials include; stone cladding, glazed curtain walling and timber panelling.

      Attachments;

      (I). Nicholas Street elevation

      (II) & (III). St. Peter Street elevation

    • #805637
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      The Bridge Street building looks pretty decent, maybe the vertical corner feature is a bit over-done, but still nice and solid.

      The proposal for 36 – 39 Nicholas Street ought to be a complete non-runner. This is an ultra-sensitive site at an ultra-sensitive location on the medieval main street of the city.

      This is the site, we talked about earlier, the one that incorporates (in the middle of it) a substantial masonry party wall incorporating the remains of a large medieval fireplace at first floor level.

      Surely they should have respected these original property divisions in the design and not obscured the whole thing with the imagery of a spec office block.

      This is by the same office that designed the fine contemporary infill on O’Connell Street, but these are two totally different contexts.

      The only objections appear to be from local residents who fear being over-shadowed, there didn’t seem to be any strong in-put addressing the heritage implications.

    • #805638
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      This is a trademark Healy Partners design gunter. Stone cladding and large areas of glazing are usually the order of the day when they’re behind a project.

      Here are a few examples from recent years, all slight variations of the same core design.

      59 – 60 O’Connell Street (2005)

      103 – 104 O’Connell Street (2008)

      Former GPO/Hanging Gardens, Henry Street (under construction)

    • #805639
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @Tuborg wrote:

      It would definitely have solved the problem of the university’s alienation from the city centre anyway. It would be fantastic to have UL right in the heart of the city! Aesthetically speaking, Plassey isn’t exactly a bad location either I suppose!

      One thing is for certain though, Kings Island definitely deserves better than a council housing estate. The area has enormous potential!

      They now do have a presence on the island as the architecture department have taken over St munchins church, previously the home of Island theatre company. located on the same street as bishops Palace

      edit: sorry just saw this was already on UL thread

    • #805640
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @Tuborg wrote:

      36-39 Nicholas Street, King’s Island

      This proposed office development (with ground floor gallery & cafe space) has been appealed to An Bord Pleanala

      Its certainly a pretty risky, ultra modern design in a sensitive setting. Materials include; stone cladding, glazed curtain walling and timber panelling.

      I had another look here and found two more images of the proposal. The third image is from flickr of Augustine Place / Nicholas Street.

      Looks like that the Nicholas and Mary Streets are returning to a four storey built height.

      The design is radical for this location.

      Reflections of the Cathedral onto the glass façade could work out well?

      Will we see more administrative / office type buildings appearing around the Town Hall vicinity?

    • #805641
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Sport Facilities Island Field ~ Corbally

      I wonder what part will sport facilities play in the regeneration of St. Mary’s Park? Athlunkard Rowing Club and Star Rovers Football Club spring to mind.

      Would it not be cool if Shannon Rugby Club returned to its parish grass roots? It’s pretty obvious really and I’m sure such thoughts have crossed Niall O’Donovan’s mind (Island Road native and Independent Chairperson of the local St. Mary’s Park Regeneration Committee).

      I mean what the hell made them move out to such a remote spot in between the now N18 tunnel and its toll plaza! Yet another classical example of Limerick’s doughnut development.

      The Island Field needs to be opened up by bridging it with Corbally thus giving it access to a railway line and another roadway route. Coupled with a healthy mix of public / private housing / apartments and the filling in of the flood lands along both sides of the Abbey River for playing fields etc, etc.

      How about it Shannon RFC?

    • #805642
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @gunter wrote:

      To me, this case illustrates what happens to highly sensitive redevelopment sites in the absence of a strong planning vision.

      This is a corner site on the city’s medieval high street, diagonally opposite the cathedral. The site incorporates the two and a half storey remains of a late medieval party wall (including 1st floor carved fireplace). It would be hard to envisage a site with greater redevelopment sensitivities.

      However, none of these sensitivities appear to have informed the design of the proposed office block (café? on ground floor) which offers the same glass box aesthetic to the streetscape that one imagines it would have anyway, had the site been located anywhere else.

      What was the planning response?

      The Limerick City planner initially expressed concern about ”no account being taken of the gradient of the street (St. Peter’s St.), the scale and bulk of the design and the inappropriate glass box design”, yet nine month later, as the Bord Pleanála inspector’s report stated, virtually the same design proposal was granted permission.

      The ABP inspector then went on to citicise the ‘scale, bulk and design’ of the proposed development, but ”. . . more so in relation to the small scale fabric of the surrounding area rather than the impact on the nearby protected structure . . .”, and recommended refusal.

      Taking up the theme of ‘scale, bulk and design’, the Bord rejected their inspector’s recommendation to refuse and granted permission, but with the omission of a full storey and a block to the rear.

      So the development will still be a glass box, but now it will be a squat glass box!

      Instead of Limerick City Council leading from the front and demanding an architectural response that re-imagines Nicholas St./ Mary Street in the scale and status of it’s once great medieval main street, the city will get anonymous scaled down office park in-fill so as not to visibly obtrude in the eroded streetscape of anonymous truncated two storey houses that inhabit the corpse of it’s civic heritage.

      There isn’t even a condition requiring a plaque commiserating with Limerick on the loss of it’s civic spine?

      A similar contemporary infill glass gabled building from the Cologne Old Market (alter Markt) Quarters might be a nicer alternative than the proposed glass box above. I personally like this steel framed / glass façade especially when a site was completely lost. Unfortunately the images are not the best of quality.

    • #805643
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I hope that gets turned down….

      They can build an new building that has features that blend into the area. I looked at it a few times before. I thought it was ok.But having a look at the sensitivity and character of the street its a no no for me. They need to go back to the drawing board here.

      I think Limerick is a very sensitive city in this regard. Have we not learned from Cruises street and Arthur’s quay. Opera centre is a vast improvement from the contemporary crap we are used to see springing up in our city centres around the country.

    • #805644
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Re-inventing Nicholas Street / Mary Street

      90% of the gabled houses in the old market quarters of Cologne were destroyed during the 2nd world war. They rebuilt this area in 1950’s / 60’s with plain apartments and just a gable roof feature on top thus retaining a feeling from the old original area.

      Whereas the numerous gabled houses on Nicholas Street / Mary Street in the Englishtown fell into decay or were scaled down to two storey dwellings during the advent of the Georgian Newtownpery.

      Would it not be worth exploring the idea of doing something similar here with Nicholas Street / Mary Street by topping up the two story buildings by two floors plus a gabled roof. Look at the building of the infill above. Built in 1721, rebuilt in 1914 and 1954.

      I wonder could the Heritage Council accept this for the Englishtown, just like what was done in Cologne after the war?

      Englishtown (King’s island) posts from the Dutch Billy thread.

      126, 131, 132, 140, 141, 209, 210, 212, 214, 216, 235, 237, 245, 246, 249, 250, 251, 252, 253, 254, 255, 256.

      • Image 1 Nicholas Street (King’s Island)
      • Image 2 Cologne ~ Alter Markt (1950’s)
      • Image 3 Cologne ~ Alter Markt (Today)
    • #805645
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @CologneMike wrote:

      A similar contemporary infill glass gabled building from the Cologne Old Market (alter Markt) Quarters might be a nicer alternative than the proposed glass box above.


      slightly wobbly 1980s sketch towards the Alte Markt area over waste ground

      Some of those Cologne rebuilds can be a bit sterile, especially when they’re neither a reconstruction, nor really contemporary, but reinstating the scale and respecting the plot divisions is really what I’d argue for.

    • #805646
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Nice sketch Gunter of the Town Hall, Cathedral and St. Martins.

      True a fair share of the apartments from post war Cologne re-construction can be a bit sterile, obviously this was due to the naked necessity to house many hundred-thousand people very quickly back then.

      One would have been forgiven to think that parts of Limerick (well into the 1980’s) had also been blitzed :rolleyes:, as large parts of the Irishtown / Englishtown were in a severe state of dereliction due to economic decline.

      Would it not be worth exploring the idea of doing something similar here with Nicholas Street / Mary Street by topping up the two story buildings by two floors plus a gabled roof. Look at the building of the infill above. Built in 1721, rebuilt in 1914 and 1954.

      I must correct an error on what I wrote above. It should read . . . . . . . Look at the building next to the infill above. Built in 1721, rebuilt in 1914 and 1954.

      I wanted to take another look at your Bremen red brick gable in-fill from the Dutch Billy thread alas your “image shack” url was not linking to it this morning.

      It would be an interesting candidate design for the site of the former gables on Mary Street below. Could you post it again.

    • #805647
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      This is that Bremen example again:

      If the Council devised a vision for Mary St. / Nicholas St. that encouraged this type of development; . . . strong urban scale, taking up the plot widths and the grain of the street at the height of it’s development . . . , people would buy into that, why would they not?

      This approach would deliver a higher quantum of development than is being achieved at the moment and if the architecture is stone and contemporary and it utilized all the numerous surviving fragments of original post-medieval structures still standing, the streetscape that could be created could be magnificent.

      A lot of people probably wouldn’t agree with me, but in the case of that ‘Billy’ terrace, I think I’d go one step further, see if an actual shell reconstruction wasn’t possible!


      I acquired (at a fecking outragous cost) a slightly better copy of that Gaol Lane photograph with part of the Mary St. ‘Billy’ elevation in the distance.

      That is assuming that this, largely undeveloped, site retains good archaeological layers that preserve the basement layout, and assuming (although I haven’t had a chance to check out the early O.S. maps yet) that the last of the four houses lined up with the semi-preserved ruin known as Fanning’s Castle, if we put all of that together with the photographic information, we’d have the bulk of what we need.

      Are we right in saying that the outline of the roof below the battlements of Fanning’s Castle, is the same roof that ran to the narrow fourth gable in CologneMike’s ‘Billy’ photograph?

    • #805648
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @gunter wrote:

      A lot of people probably wouldn’t agree with me, but in the case of that ‘Billy’ terrace, I think I’d go one step further, see if an actual shell reconstruction wasn’t possible!

      That is assuming that this, largely undeveloped, site retains good archaeological layers that preserve the basement layout, and assuming (although I haven’t had a chance to check out the early O.S. maps yet) that the last of the four houses lined up with the semi-preserved ruin known as Fanning’s Castle, if we put all of that together with the photographic information, we’d have the bulk of what we need.

      This is very likely as excavations have already revealed foundations of ‘Dutch Billy’ houses on Mary Street. Though I can’t pin point 48-50 Mary Street yet.

      Below a 1960 map of the area, alas the cut off was along the site of Fanning Castle. I think I see a no. 34 opposite Gaol Lane?

      Gunter, as for the picture from the Gaol Lane it’s truly great! 😎 Billy hunting not only consumes time but also hits ones pocket. The Limerick posters will have to return the complement with your next visit there.

      Database of Irish Excavations Reports

      48–50 Mary Street, Limerick

      Urban medieval (2002:1220 R582557 00E0635 ext.)

      Part of this site was excavated in 2000 before development (Excavations 2000, No. 594; Collins 2003). The remainder of the site was tested in 2002 to see whether there were archaeological remains in that part and to investigate further an undercroft feature partially exposed during the 2000 excavation.

      Six trenches were opened on the site, which revealed the remainder of the first undercroft and the remains of two further limestone cellars. Architectural features recorded included corbels, niches and steps, as well as the remains of a red-brick arched passageway, which may be related to the ‘Dutch Billy’ houses that once stood on Mary Street. It was found that access to the undercrofts, averaging 6m wide and 20m long, could be gained from Mary Street to the west, with the northern and southern undercroft also having rear access. The central undercroft did not have rear access. Evidence of vaulting was found only in the northern undercroft.

      A number of architectural fragments were also recovered during testing. Owing to the lack of secure dating evidence, it is difficult to date the structures, but it appears that at least parts may date to the later medieval period. It was agreed with the developers that part of these features will remain exposed as a component of the new structure, with the remainder being reburied and not affected by the building (Collins, forthcoming).

      References
      Collins, T. 2003 Excavations at Mary Street, Limerick. North Munster Antiquarian Journal 42, 69–88.
      Colllins, T. (forthcoming) Stone undercrofts at Mary Street, Limerick. North Munster Antiquarian Journal 43.

      Tracy Collins, Aegis Archaeology Ltd, 16 Avondale Court, Corbally, Limerick.

      The 1907 ‘Sale of Limerick’ Catalogue & Maps (Limerick City Council) See map 14

      Alas trouble shooting: Upload of file failed. 🙁 I will post the map latter.

    • #805649
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      So any development on the Nicholas street proposal

    • #805650
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Originally posted by Junior on the First Brick House thread:

      In the photo of Mary St. the laneway between the Dutch Gabled houses is Ryans Lane,it appears on the 1840 and 1870 Ordnance Survey maps of Limerick,the two closest Billy’s are described in the Civil Survey 1654,they were refaced in brick in the early 18th cent.
      The laneway is not mentioned in the mid 17th cent survey, the next two gabled houses were originally one property according to the civil survey measured 44ft fronting the street by 40ft,I would assume the redevelopment/refacing of these buildings accounts for the laneway where one would assume to find a dividing wall.
      The next two storeyed flat gabled building, that has washing hanging outside is the building which fronts Fanning’s Castle,(not really a castle more a castellated town house dating to the 15th/16th cent, these oppulent merchant class buildings were predominant on Mary St. -then known as High St.)
      The furthest three two storeyed buildings which corner onto Creagh Lane replaced three timber framed cagework houses also in the early 18th cent.

      I thought I’d paste this over here, since this is where we were discussing these houses.

      Thanks for the detailed info Junior, this is a most puzzling terrace. I can see the differences between the second two Billys and the first two; the string courses and the narrower window proportions, but then there’s the grouping of two slightly wider Billys in the centre and two narrower Billys on either end, which suggests a unified composition! And then there’s that central laneway which also seems to imply a unified design approach in the development of the two properties, which would be a bit unexpected for this period.

      So the next house (the one with the washing) lined up with ”Fanning’s Castle”, and therefore would have had a tall gable also, if the roof profile evident at the rear (posted above) followed through to the front. This house would have been a four storey, three-bay, version of the Dutch Billy refronted, five storey, four-bay, stone merchant house beside the Exchange on Nicholas Street.

      What an incredible street this used to be!

    • #805651
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Going on what Junior wrote above, I think I have managed to pin-point “Fanning’s Castle” on this map. If my notes match the photos in my camera then the map should be from 1900, this map and others can be seen in the city library.

    • #805652
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      With a full basement level just waiting to be explored, pretty good photographic records, and nothing of any significance subsequently built on the site, I would seriously consider a reconstruction of this terrace as a first step in the regeneration of this once great street and as a representative example of the city’s record of top class street architecture.

      A stab at a reconstruction of the street elevation just based on the proportions recorded on the O.S. map and a calculation of the dimensions based on the brick courses that can be made out in the quite high resolution photograph looking north-west on Mary St. It’s a pity we don’t know more about ‘F’ it looks like it had an interesting plan with perhaps a Rothe House style sequence of tiny courtyards leading to Fanning’s Castle.

      The fact that these buildings offer a good model of medium density urban development means that we might evem learn something in the process.:)

    • #805653
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Man your elevation of Mary Street above is fantastic! 😎 I’m all for the reconstruction of that terrace.

      Gunter, ever think of moving to Limerick for a spell and get involved in this regeneration stuff.

      Take a look at the poor attempt they made on those 1980’s gabled houses further down Mary Street ~ Baal’s Bridge. Not very inspiring are they! The original Dutch Gables as seen below from 1898 had character!

      Photograph. Glass slide. (1898) Limerick City. Titled: Dutch Gables. View of houses and shop fronts on Mary St, east side near Baal’s Bridge, including Pawn Office with three balls and sign. Man and woman on footpath, laundry hanging out one window. Road unpaved.

      http://www.limerickcity.ie/Museum/image/0000/00003563.jpg

    • #805654
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Yea, one positive thing about the recent stuff at the bridge end of Mary Street is that the medieval narrowness of the street has been maintained, but apart from that it’s pretty depressing.


      Mary Street from Baal’s Bridge

      We’re just not getting any sense that Limerick considers this to be one of the most important streets, if not the most important street, in the city and yet everywhere along it there are still tiny glimpses of it’s former splendour that could be exploited to spark regeneration.

      I don’t want to start sounding like a broken record, but Mary Street/Nicholas Street (arguably Broad Street as well) is collectively such an important street that it really needs the City Council to come up with a pro-active architectural vision for it that captures and illustrates the enormous heritage and civic potential of the street.


      remnants of high status street architecture on Nicholas St. truncated merchant houses with fine dressed stonework to the ground floor and 18th century red brickwork peeping out behind render on the upper floors.


      similar story further down Nicholas St. on the Peter St. corner.

      . . .
      again remains of high quality stonework on both sides of the ruinous site with the late medieval fireplace, where permission was recently granted for a glass office block that doesn’t seem to make any attempt to work with these valuable remnants of stonework, or the original plot widths.


      another nice piece of good quality stonework from one of the two ‘Billys’ that adjoined the Gaol on Mary Street (opposite the terrace of ‘Billys’ discussed earlier), incorporated into one of the 20th century houses built on the site.

      A street like this could be a model for, heritage sensitive, urban regeneration, it could present a masterclass in sensitive contemporary infill, It could be a focal point for pride in the city, not to mention it could be a tourist magnet.

    • #805655
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Quote from Junior from the the ‘Riverside thread’:

      ‘The most puzzling thing about the designation of ‘Medieval Quarter’ is that not only does it exclude Irishtown,thereby diminishing its historical significance but on King’s Island the northern section of the medieval town from Castle St. northwards is also cut off.
      The Bishop’s Palace, the home of the Limerick Civic Trust probably contains quite a bit of medieval fabric,especially in the basement.It was the site of Striches Castle prior to its remodeling as a Palladian structure.
      On Verdant Place along the Shannon north of Thomond Bridge there is a fine stretch of the medieval town wall complete with the remains of two round mural towers.
      I think this is a pointless omission from the medieval quarter, it seems that the council is solely concentrating on King John’s Castle and St.Mary’s Cathedral and not realising the possible economic and tourism potential literally on their doorstep’.

      I think this comment should be copied onto this thread, we really need to build up a head of steam on this. A ‘Medieval Quarter’ designation shouldn’t be just about drawing tourists to the big medieval attractions, it should be about promoting an understanding and an appreciation of the whole historic city and that can be achieved by encouraging sensitive regeneration that respects the historic grain of the city.

      We can see all across war damaged Europe that the heritage of any historic city can be made legible again, even if many of the buildings are new, provided the decision is taken to respect the early patterns and provided the new developments harvest every fragment of early fabric that is available. Research and guided repair are a big part of the solution, but at the end of the day, nothing pays more respect to the heritage of a damaged historic city than good contemporary architecture, but it can’t be the architecture of the office park.

    • #805656
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @Junior wrote:

      . . . . . . it seems that the council is solely concentrating on King John’s Castle and St.Mary’s Cathedral and not realising the possible economic and tourism potential literally on their doorstep.

      Medieval Quarter ~ Shannon Heritage ~ Limerick City Council

      Shannon Development, I presume made this tourist walking route map for the Kings Island a few years back. What looks well on paper, I fear our average visitor would be disappointed with the three hour walking tour option, as some of the drawings just don’t simply live up to expectations. What to do with our remnants?

      1. Merchants Quay
      2. Potato Market
      3. Courthouse
      4. Civic Centre (City Hall)
      5. St. Mary’s Cathedral
      6. Old Courthouse / Gerald Griffin Memorial School
      7. Bourke’s House (Remnants)
      8. Island Road Walls (Remnants)
      9. Dominican Abbey (Remnants)
      10. Bishop’s Palace
      11. St. Munchin’s Church
      12. Villers Alms Houses
      13. Thomond Bridge
      14. Toll House
      15. North Munster Masonic Centre
      16. King John’s Castle
      17. Limerick Museum
      18. Castle Lane (Theme)
      19. Site of St Nicholas?
      20. Alms Cottages
      21. Exchange Façade (Remnants)
      22. Fanning’s Castle (Remnants)
      23. Site of Thosel? (lost)
      24. Barrington’s Hospital

      Larger image here.

    • #805657
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I plotted the extant medieval and 17th century buildings and town walls of the old city onto the most recent Ordnance Survey map in an effort to show that the medieval town plan is still visible in the modern streetscape .
      When I walk around Englishtown and Irishtown I still feel that a lot of the character of the old town remains and that more than enough knowledge is known archaeologically and historically about Limerick to influence future development in a positive way.

    • #805658
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Plans in train to relocate Kemmy Museum to Merchant’s Quay (Limerick Post)

      Mayor Kiely favours Henry Street as best location for District Court

      THE JIM KEMMY Museum, located behind King John’s Castle, is to be relocated in the Merchant Quay building, which has housed the Limerick District Court.

      Mayor Kevin Kiely has confirmed that once the District Court is relocated, the museum will then transfer to the vacant building next door to City Hall.

      Some months ago, Pat Dowling, a director of services with Limerick City Council called for a more prominent relocation of the museum, which he contended is obscured by the medieval castle.

      He argued that visitors were frequently unaware of the museum’s presence in the area and that consequently, its potential to attract visitors was reduced.

      Speaking to the Limerick Post. Mayor Kiely confirmed that he has been in negotiations with the city manager, Tom Mackey and Mr Dowling on the issue.

      “I’ve been pushing very hard for moving the museum Into what will be the former District Court and have also had meetings with the Defence Minister, Willie O’Dea, who has been very helpful and made strong representations to the court services – it’s now just a matter of getting the Office of Public Works, the City Council and the Court Services together to agree a compensation package, sufficient to fit out the building when vacated by the court, to make it suitable for the museum.

      Mayor Kiely said that the council is paying in the region of 60,000 euro annually in rent for the museum building, to Shannon Development. “The transfer will mean the museum will now be in a much more prominent location, a location that is frequented by visitors to the city – they visit St Mary’s Cathedral and automatically wander into Merchant’s Quay. The tour buses depart from here and the Angela’s Ashes walking tours also gather here.”

      The mayor is enthusiastic about transferring the District Court to the proposed Henry Street location.

      “It’s an ideal arrangement, there’s underground parking and forecourts in the old Post Office site and being so close to the Garda Station on the opposite side of the road, it will save on garda patrols and manpower”. Asked if it is envisaged that the Henry Street location will be a short, rather than a long-term arrangement, (there has been ongoing speculation that the court would transfer to a site on the St Joseph’s Mental Hospital campus), Mayor Kiely said he feels it will be a permanent location for the District Court.

      “The HSE has decided against giving land on the hospital campus over for this purpose – the Office of Public Works has been told that the HSE has other plans for it. I’m very happy with the arrangement for the transfer of the museum into what will soon be the vacated court building – I’ll be leaving no stone unturned in seeing this up and running as soon as possible.

      Earlier speculation that the City Library would take up occupancy in the court house building was dispelled by the city librarian, Dolores Doyle, who told the Limerick Post the building is too small for their purposes.

      “The library in the Granary building on Michael Street is 14,500 square metres and is now much too small for our extended services, but the court building is only 8,000 square feet. What we are looking for in a new building we need for the library is 20,000 or more square feet,” she said.

      I feel this is more to do with the issue of rent than anything else. The very fact that the museum is underutilised can be attributed to the City Council’s dismal failure to firstly promote, but also develop Kings Island as a tourist destination. As long as the Council keep kidding themselves over this issue, we are never going to see the area fulfilling its enormous potential!

      Its also disheartening to see Kiely still pushing for the re-location of the District Court to the old GPO like an utter gombeen!:mad:

    • #805659
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @Tuborg wrote:

      I feel this is more to do with the issue of rent than anything else. The very fact that the museum is underutilised can be attributed to the City Council’s dismal failure to firstly promote, but also develop Kings Island as a tourist destination. As long as the Council keep kidding themselves over this issue, we are never going to see the area fulfilling its enormous potential!

      Its also disheartening to see Kiely still pushing for the re-location of the District Court to the old GPO like an utter gombeen!:mad:

      on the plus side, I doubt Kiely has any actual sway over where the Courts Service locate the Courts. This isn’t too unlike when the (circuit and Hiigh?) Courts were temporarily relocated to the Red Church on Henry street. What is hugely positive is that the District Court has been permanently moved away from the city Hall.

      I don’t think the Museum is an ideal fit for that location though, it should be a space the citizens of Limerick can enjoy, will a museum really allow for that?

    • #805660
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @Junior wrote:

      When I walk around Englishtown and Irishtown I still feel that a lot of the character of the old town remains and that more than enough knowledge is known archaeologically and historically about Limerick to influence future development in a positive way.

      Town Wall ~ Island Road

      Looking at both maps (Shannon Heritage / Limerick Civic Trust) above, the former invokes an image of an intact wall running along the Island Road. Unfortunately it does not live up to expectations. The LCT map however outlines the existing remnants of the wall and also the presumed line between the remnants.

      Still though the SH map captures ones imagination as to how the town wall once was. I wonder if an archaeological dig could unravel the foundations of the missing sections on the Island Road. Would it be acceptable to reconstruct the missing sections of the wall in accordance to guidelines on conservation for walled towns (Heritage Council)?

      Some of the remnants are over grown with shrub, need repairing and preservation.

      Image 1: Town Wall Island Road. (Peter’s Cell) see museum links 1 2
      Images 2, 3: Birds-eye-view of Island Road. (Missing sections highlighted)

    • #805661
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      The Irish Walled Towns Network is a Heritage Council based conservation plan which was launched two years ago, its remit is constrained specifically to conservation and education of the existing town walls of Irish cities.
      It has been mooted before to reconstruct stretches of the town wall but it is not archaeologically sound, An Bord Pleanala ,An Taisce ,to name a few organisations would never let it happen. The Irish Walled Towns Network (IWTN) through Aegis Archaeology has already completed a systematic survey of the walls of Limerick whereby the current state of the walls,deterioration & overgrown with shrubbery have been noted and there is a plan already in place to conserve the walls section by section, work has already begun on conservation of the little Gerard Griffith Street/Mungret Gate section of the town walls.
      The section of walls on Island road is apparently the next in line, The Limerick Civic Trust has come into some criticism of late for not having a continuous management plan for the upkeep of the numerous sections of the town walls that they conserved in the early nineties.
      Hopefully the IWTN will ensure that the surviving sections of walls are conserved and appreciated to the fullest extent.

    • #805662
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @Tuborg wrote:

      I feel this is more to do with the issue of rent than anything else. The very fact that the museum is underutilised can be attributed to the City Council’s dismal failure to firstly promote, but also develop Kings Island as a tourist destination. As long as the Council keep kidding themselves over this issue, we are never going to see the area fulfilling its enormous potential!

      I don’t know what the numbers for visiting the museum are like. But given that entrance is free and its location alongside the castle, I always get the impression that it is very well visited in the summer months. The castle and museum seem to complement each other.

      The Museums real drawback is that the ground floor is way too small to properly display its exhibits. In my opinion it’s simply too crammed and one would be forgiven to think that one had just walked into an exclusive antique shop.

      By the way, as for the City District Court moving to Henry Street, I’m curious to know as to what use will be made of the “Hanging Gardens”. 😉

    • #805663
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @gunter wrote:

      The Exchange was probably built as an open structure on the ground floor, like the Tholsel, with a stone flagged floor.

      With the ground level being so much higher on the cemetery side of the wall, there’s a good chance that much of this stone paved ground floor survives, along with the lower sections of the back and side walls. If the burials could be relocated, it would be great to see the floor plan of the old Exchange excavated and the Tuscan arcade opened up again as some kind of outdoor exhibition space.


      the Tuscan columns peeping through the masonry in-fill on the inside of the street facade.

      Exchange Wall 24, 25

      Gunter, I’m jumping threads again as your idea fits in nicely with the other “potential candidates” discussed here for reconstruction. I would even contemplate its full reconstruction (1778 building). Space for re-internment of those graves could be available within the cemetery. The original site of the exchange does not appear to be that large. The ground floor I believe was a covered market and the first floor was the council chamber (1673 building). This would be an amazing add on for the Cathedral for administrative / residential purposes as their corner church house (Nicholas Street / Saint Augustine Place) is not really fitting for such a Cathedral.

      The fate of the old Exchange was to be a sad one. It was abandoned by the Corporation and gradually fell into ruins. In 1884, it was purchased from the local authority by a wealthy member of the Church of Ireland named Robert Hunt who then presented it free of charge to St. Mary’s Cathedral. It was immediately demolished and the site was used to extend the burial ground surrounding the Cathedral. However, the colonnade at the front of the Exchange was salvaged and was incorporated into the wall of the burial ground.

      (History of Limerick Corporation by Mathew Potter)

    • #805664
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      It’s interesting that they appear to have re-used the parapet moulding and capping stones at first floor cill level when the building was dismantled.

      I wonder is there a well preserved and probably very substantial medieval basement under that great ‘Billy’ re-fronted stone merchant house as well. Would they have filled it in and just started burying people above it? . . . . stranger things have happened 😉

      The cemetery does function as a sort of landscaped square, even if we regret all the demolitions the created it. There probably isn’t a good case for trying to reverse this now by attempting reconstructions, but I’d certainly look at re-locating the burials that prevent the archaeological investigation of these two significant buildings and look at ways of presenting their lower level remains, if they prove as interesting and as complete as I suspect they may be.

      As you say, it would add greatly to the legibility of Nicholas St./Mary St. as the High Street of the medieval city, and open up glimpses of the cathedral which looks a bit walled-off from the street.

    • #805665
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @gunter wrote:

      It’s interesting that they appear to have re-used the parapet moulding and capping stones at first floor cill level when the building was dismantled.

      . . . . . . There probably isn’t a good case for trying to reverse this now by attempting reconstructions, . . . . . . .

      As you say, it would add greatly to the legibility of Nicholas St./Mary St. as the High Street of the medieval city, and open up glimpses of the cathedral which looks a bit walled-off from the street.

      You seem to be in two minds about a reconstruction of the Exchange.

      The areas highlighted below shows what exists today, by inserting a floor with six windows plus a little roof on top and we have our Exchange restored to its original state.

      Would make an excellent building as a Registry Office for performing civil marriages.

    • #805666
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Damn that wealthy Protestant man anyway! :p Although to be fair, considering Limerick’s record of preserving it’s historic fabric, something would surely have happened to it regardless! Presumably Ireton’s house was acquired for the cathedral under similar circumstances?

      Re-instating the exchange sounds exciting in theory but in reality would it be an acceptable solution? Maybe it would be best to follow gunter’s lead and try and make the most of whats left of it?

      Also, I wonder how St. Mary’s would feel about re-locating those graves, would they be open to it?

    • #805667
      Anonymous
      Inactive
      Tuborg wrote:
      Damn that wealthy Protestant man anyway! :p Although to be fair, considering Limerick’s record of preserving it’s historic fabric, something would surely have happened to it regardless! Presumably Ireton’s house was acquired for the cathedral under similar circumstances?

      It has only recently dawned on me that Ireton’s House or Galway’s Castle as it was previously known is in fact not the dutch gabled house adjacent the Exchange. All photographs of ‘Iretons House’ show an empty plot of ground on the corner of Nicholas st and Bridge street, We know from the Civil Survey 1654-56 that this corner location was the position of Galway’s Castle.
      In the attatched photo from the Limerick Museum showing the delapidated rear of the Billy next to the Exchange there is a spread of rubble(formerly Iretons House) which would suggest that given the fact that the graveyard of the St. Mary’s Cathedral is raised behind the Exchange the cellar/undercroft of the two billy’s may remain reletively intact

    • #805668
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @Junior wrote:

      It has only recently dawned on me that Ireton’s House or Galway’s Castle as it was previously known is in fact not the dutch gabled house adjacent the Exchange. All photographs of ‘Iretons House’ show an empty plot of ground on the corner of Nicholas st and Bridge street, We know from the Civil Survey 1654-56 that this corner location was the position of Galway’s Castle.

      In the attatched photo from the Limerick Museum showing the delapidated rear of the Billy next to the Exchange there is a spread of rubble(formerly Iretons House) which would suggest that given the fact that the graveyard of the St. Mary’s Cathedral is raised behind the Exchange the cellar/undercroft of the two billy’s may remain reletively intact

      Yeah spot on. In the photograph below you can clearly see the boundary wall of St. Mary’s/graveyard entrance from Bridge Street with a vacant plot next to that building.

      Higher quality image here

      So currently there are no images available of Ireton’s House/Galwey’s Castle? Presumably it would have been pulled down some time in the 1890s?

    • #805669
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @Junior wrote:

      It has only recently dawned on me that Ireton’s House or Galway’s Castle as it was previously known is in fact not the dutch gabled house adjacent the Exchange. All photographs of ‘Iretons House’ show an empty plot of ground on the corner of Nicholas st and Bridge street, We know from the Civil Survey 1654-56 that this corner location was the position of Galway’s Castle.

      In the attatched photo from the Limerick Museum showing the delapidated rear of the Billy next to the Exchange there is a spread of rubble(formerly Iretons House) which would suggest that given the fact that the graveyard of the St. Mary’s Cathedral is raised behind the Exchange the cellar/undercroft of the two billy’s may remain reletively intact

      I think you could mention this to Larry Walsh (Limerick Museum), for they could be spreading misinformation about Ireton’s location.

      Link: Limerick City. Ireton’s house, rear and side, c.1890

      Link: Glass slide. Limerick City. Titled: Gridiron Inn. View of Nicholas St from the north side of Mary St near corner with Athlunkard St. Derelict site at corner of Bishop St – Nicholas St, then two Dutch gabled houses (including Ireton’s House), the Exchange (intact, with windows), gable of St Mary’s Cathedral.

      Are these two Dutch gabled houses in fact then just a twin Billy building (two shop fronts) sharing one roof?

    • #805670
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @CologneMike wrote:

      Are these two Dutch gabled houses in fact then just a twin Billy building (two shop fronts) sharing one roof?

      @gunter wrote:

      Dutch Billy Thread (page 6, posts 132, 133)

      That five storey beside the exchange is astonishing, and totally Dutch in the proportions of solid to void on the first floor (second and third floors altered to 3 windows?).

      (There is a serious warning here not to trust prints, if that Exchange print is supposed to represent the same house)

      Could it be possible that the 1820 picture below did represent the existence of two Dutch gables as there are two narrow plots to be seen in Junior’s map (insert) and that in the c. 1880 image above, they had been latter altered to a twin gable with one roof?

    • #805671
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @Junior wrote:

      The Irish Walled Towns Network is a Heritage Council based conservation plan which was launched two years ago, its remit is constrained specifically to conservation and education of the existing town walls of Irish cities.

      It has been mooted before to reconstruct stretches of the town wall but it is not archaeologically sound, An Bord Pleanala ,An Taisce ,to name a few organisations would never let it happen. The Irish Walled Towns Network (IWTN) through Aegis Archaeology has already completed a systematic survey of the walls of Limerick whereby the current state of the walls,deterioration & overgrown with shrubbery have been noted and there is a plan already in place to conserve the walls section by section, work has already begun on conservation of the little Gerard Griffith Street/Mungret Gate section of the town walls.

      The section of walls on Island road is apparently the next in line, The Limerick Civic Trust has come into some criticism of late for not having a continuous management plan for the upkeep of the numerous sections of the town walls that they conserved in the early nineties.

      Hopefully the IWTN will ensure that the surviving sections of walls are conserved and appreciated to the fullest extent.

      I came across this report on the Limerick Museum section of the City Council’s site.

      Limerick City Walls ~ Conservation & Management Plan

      ÆGIS Archaeology Limited
      Architectural Conservation Professionals
      Minogue & Associates

      Report Prepared for:
      Limerick City Council and The Heritage Council

      May 2008

      Follow link.

    • #805672
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      http://www.property.ie/commercial-property/Athlunkard-Street-Limerick-City-Co-Limerick/25981/

      Some redevelopment on the pipeline on Athlunkard Street here.

    • #805673
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      The new “Irish Historic Towns Atlas ~ Limerick” reveals some gems. 😎 There is an 1845 impression of Nicholas Street (Wilkinson p. 130) which really grabs the imagination. In the selected bibliography, it mentions a book from George Wilkinson called the “Practical Geology and Ancient Architecture of Ireland” (Dublin and London 1845), so I’ll make an educated guess and presume this drawing originally came from it. I wonder when anybody is browsing the next time around the National Library and could confirm this.

      This image fuels my support for some form of reconstruction of Dutch-gables as discussed in the previous page.

      The map of Nicholas Street is from 1840. Was the drawing made from the corner of Abbey Street looking towards the direction of the castle?

    • #805674
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      That image stood out for me too – I think you are possibly correct in your guess as to the location. Nicholas st from Bridge st to Baals bridge has a gentle decline.Assuming that the row of buildings in the image starts at the corner of the lane opposite Abbey st – there are roughly nine buildings on the map as far as Kelly’s lane – where the building with the high square top is shown on the image. I take it Abbey st is now Newgate lane… looking at that section of street on bing maps there isnt much of interest really.Wonder what those 2 grey stone buildings are halfway along the block

    • #805675
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Castle Street ~ Dutch-Gables

      The 1842 drawing of the new Thomond Bridge and King Johns Castle (W.F. Wakeman NLI) more or less confirms what the Brocas Print from 1826 showed.

      Both reveal similar Dutch-gables on Castle Street with The Parade (Nicholas Street) in the background.

      It seems they cleared the houses running alongside the castle to make way for the then new wider bridge and road.

      See previous post

    • #805676
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Tourist trail ‘a disgrace’ (Limerick Post)

      Written by Colum Coomey

      NICHOLAS Street is a disgrace and left to decay, warn locals, demanding immediate attention from the authorities.

      What angers them is that the street is a main artery to a number of tourist attractions, and also within yards of City Hall.

      Patience is running out for traders and residents.

      It is even claimed there is open dealing of heroin on the narrow street, which has been described as a meeting point for sellers and addicts, with often up to a dozen gathering to buy drugs.

      A gate was erected to close off one alleyway to undesirables.

      The passageway, to the rear of City Hall, is regularly littered with syringes, it has been claimed.

      Councillor Maurice Quinlivan condemned the volume of drug dealing in the area and is particularly concerned in that there are three schools in the vicinity.

      He said: “This is the main thoroughfare for tourists walking from King John’s Castle to the Cathedral and the Treaty Stone, and it is a disgrace the way it has been neglected”.

      He said that Gardaí recently raided one property.

      Four pubs, an amusement arcade and takeaway, a printers, two antique shops, two newsagents, a polish foodstore and a number of offices dot the street.

      Others have closed, and traders feels that unless Limerick City Council address recurring problems, there will be more casualties.

      The one-way traffic system and lack of parking spaces are blamed for loss of business.

      One trader consistently receives parking fines while unloading goods.

      He pointed to the number of derelict properties.

      “They have done nothing for us in the past 20 years. They widened the footpaths to make the street more attractive and look at the results; we now have 23ft of footpath and 13ft of road…”.

      Nicholas Street, it was said, should be a tourist hub, but one resident commented: “The few tourists we do see only come to photograph the weeds”.

      It’s very disappointing alright, though in fairness the city council did a fine job of repaving Mary and Nicholas Streets.

      See also map of tourist trail.

    • #805677
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Part of shop front falls on city street (IrishExaminer)

      By Jimmy Woulfe, Mid West Correspondent

      A CITY street in Limerick was near-empty when parts of a derelict building crashed to the ground yesterday.

      But a former mayor said if the incident had happened in a few weeks’ time, when schools were re-opened, there could have been a major tragedy.

      The incident occurred in Nicholas Street around 9am. Some locals warned the street is a potential ‘death row’ due to the bad condition of some unoccupied buildings.

      City Hall councillor John Gilligan said: “A huge part of a shop front fell down. If there had been anybody waiting there they would have been killed. This is normally a very busy street at around 9 o’clock when schools are open, as hundreds of children pass along the street to a local national school.

      “If it happened when the schools were open we would have had a major tragedy on our hands. I have been calling for action to be taken on this particular building for years due to its dangerous condition.

      Mr Gilligan said investors had acquired old premises in the good Celtic Tiger years.

      “Now they have walked away and left these buildings in a deteriorating condition. The city council must now move on the owners of these building and compel them to make them safe.”

      The section of shop facia which fell yesterday measured about 20ft x 4ft.

      Maybe the council should issue hard hats to the school kids if they intend to keep ignoring the state of the streets surrounding the town hall. 😡 Anybody know exactly which building collapsed?

    • #805678
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      hi there,
      i am wondering if anyobody knows whether or not the Dutch houses situated between st. john’s castle and the FAS almshouses off Nicholas Street are orignal or reconstruction/totally new? they look pretty pristine.
      thanks!

    • #805679
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Nope, they were newly built for tourists back in the 90s.

      @speckybecky wrote:

      hi there,
      i am wondering if anyobody knows whether or not the Dutch houses situated between st. john’s castle and the FAS almshouses off Nicholas Street are orignal or reconstruction/totally new? they look pretty pristine.
      thanks!

    • #805680
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Yep, a Shannon Development tourist project.

      Devin posted this Irish Times (1998) article on the Dutch Billy thread.

      Historical pastiche a dubious tribute to Limerick’s heritage

      Shannon Development rolled out the red carpet last weekend for the official opening of its latest flagship project, a £3.8 million tourism development involving the construction of a street beside King John’s Castle and the refurbishment of its visitor centre.

      Castle Lane contains “a blend of several different examples of Limerick’s architectural heritage” – a mid-18th century granary, two early 18th century “Dutch Billy” gabled houses, a more humble urban labourer’s cottage and a stone-fronted merchant’s house with a 17th century appearance.

      All beautifully built by Michael McNamara and Company, the complex is the end-product of market research commissioned by Shannon Development which identified the need for a “magnet tourism project” for Limerick that might transform it into an “international tourist destination”.

      The State’s only regional development company had a problem. The grey metal-clad visitor centre at the castle, built in 1990, had never won public approval; Cllr John Gilligan, an independent member of Limerick Corporation, once invited “the entire populace” to throw stones at the offending structure.

      Browbeaten by this continuing controversy, Shannon Development turned away from contemporary architecture towards quasi-historical pastiche when it came to building Castle Lane – despite strenuous objections from the Heritage Council, which felt such a solution would lack authenticity.

      The National Monuments Service opposes the scheme because it meant building in the early 13th century castle moat, parallel to its southern wall. This involved abandoning earlier plans to line Castle Lane with “medieval” buildings, forcing Shannon Development to pick a later period for its project.

      Murray O’Laoire, the award-winning architects’ firm which designed the castle’s visitor centre, believed a contemporary building would be the most appropriate solution. But its advice was rejected, although it was persuaded to stay on, at least, as project managers, leaving the design work for others.

      Mr Hugh Murray, who heads the firm’s Limerick office, said last weekend he was unhappy about a Shannon Development press release listing Murray O’Laoire as the architects. “I’ve always said that, no matter what happens, I’ll be defending the visitor centre but I won’t be defending [Castle Lane].”

      To counter public loathing of the visitor centre, Event Ireland – which specialises in heritage projects – was commissioned to improve its appearance by fixing a series of full-height heraldic banners on both sides of the structure. These give the building a lift, making it look more festive.

      The visitor centre forecourt has also been re-ordered, with the moat and bridge removed and steel handrails replaced by timber. Inside, the “complete refurbishment” includes covering up the main windows to provide space for wax dummies in full regalia of James II, William III and others involved in the Siege of Limerick.

      As for the buildings on Castle Lane, the “mid-18th century” granary at the corner of Nicholas Street will be the new home of Limerick City Museum; it is relocating there from a real Georgian house on John’s Square. The remaining buildings constitute a very large “themed pub”.

      The pair of Dutch Billys, nicely tuck-pointed and “authentic” in every detail, house the kitchen and toilets of the new Castle Lane Tavern; one entrance is a fire exit from the pub. And the humble labourer’s house next door is also part of this “re-created early 18th century tavern”.

      Executed by McNally Design, responsible for numerous Irish “themed pubs” abroad, it has beams decorated with old carpenter’s tools to evoke a workshop while upstairs visitors are seated at trestle tables in a room with painted trompe l’oeil blockwork on the walls and even the ceiling.

      At both levels, the “labourer’s cottage” opens out into the “17th century merchant’s house”, which contains a “gentry bar” with a stone-built fireplace on the ground-floor and an even larger one upstairs, where the high ceiling, supported by king-post trusses, is decorated in mid-19th century Gothic Revival style, after Pugin.

      The piece de resistance is an oriel window in the corner, which offers a panoramic view over the River Shannon; otherwise, because the windows are relatively small and there are few of them, the building fails to capitalise on its location – though Castle Lane does link Nicholas Street with the riverside walk.

      “In essence, from an architectural viewpoint, the buildings which make up Castle Lane represent different examples of Limerick’s built heritage of which some [notably the Dutch gables] are now largely lost to us,” says Shannon Development. “They represent a tribute to an architectural legacy which is being increasingly destroyed.”

      This is part of the problem. While the new quasi-historical complex was clad in brick and stone salvaged from buildings demolished in Limerick, it is clear the city is failing to look after its real architectural heritage; a plethora of PVC windows deface the Crescent, centrepiece of Georgian Limerick.

      Shannon Development is on firmer ground with its latest project at Bunratty Folk Park. This involved re-erecting a redundant Regency Gothic Church of Ireland parish church from Ardcroney, near Borrisokane, Co Tipperary. There are even plans to plant yew trees to make it look as if it has always been there.

      Bunratty Folk Park also contains several invented buildings, and there is nothing wrong with that because they stand within a corral. But was it right to build quasi-historical buildings at Castle Lane in the heart of Limerick?

      Frank McDonald

      © The Irish Times, May 22, 1998

      Here are other Englishtown (King’s island) posts from the Dutch Billy thread.

      126, 131, 132, 140, 141, 209, 210, 212, 214, 216, 235, 237, 245, 246, 249, 250, 251, 252, 253, 254, 255, 256.

    • #805681
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @rumpelstiltskin wrote:

      Nope, they were newly built for tourists back in the 90s.

      Looking at the maps and pictures in the ‘Historic Town’ series produced by the RIA, many, if not most, of the buildings along Nicholas Street were of this design in the 1800’s.

    • #805682
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Whatever may have been the controversy about the ‘repro’ buildings on Castle lane, they look in their current state to be about to join the long list of streets/buildings in Limerick which are slowly (or rapidly) crumbling away to their basic elements. Is there something in the Limerick air? Apart from all the regular media horror stories about Gangsterville (aka Moyross), all the threads here point to a city bent on destroying (or having already destroyed) what architectural/townscape quality and character it has/had.
      Yet, on my one visit, it seemed to me to have the most ‘urban’ character in Ireland. I am genuinely puzzled – Limerick surely cannot be as dysfunctional as it appears.

    • #805683
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I think you’re right johnglas, a lot of the character is still there [just], but the overwhelming sense that I get when I go down there is that they have absolutely no idea how to embrace that character, beyond the usual token jestures. So much of the local authority energy in Limerick seems to be spent trying to address the problems of the out-lying ‘problem’ estates that they’ve lost all focus on the city core and the spec developers have made hay in their usual way with suburban sprawl and trademark out-of-town shopping centres, which in turn have further drained the life out of the city centre.

      They can convince the Government to throw all the millions they like at Moyross etc. but Limerick is going nowhere as a city until it gets the message that you can’t fix urban problems without employing urban solutions and the first urban solution is always – make the city compact.

      There’s a simple test that should be applied to all development proposals, as a city official you just ask yourself; does this proposal:
      [a] contribute to the regeneration of the city centre in a way that respects and utilizes the urban heritage? or
      would this proposal have a detremental effect on the goal of creating a compact, lively, city centre that respects and utilizes the urban heritage? or
      [c] would this proposal have no effect on the city centre, good or bad?

      If the answer is or [c] . . . . just feck it out.

      I would love to run the planning office for a week, just me, a coffee machine and an industrial sized shredder

    • #805684
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I agree Johnglas, Limerick ’s high crime profile is peculiar. :confused:

      The city has grown under the jurisdiction of three local authorities. Its dysfunctional problems stem from there.

      I think Peter Coyne and Edward Walsh give a very good snap-shot of the city today and how it should be.

      The Vision of a Revitalised Limerick ~ The Fundamental Vision

      Arising from the 20 interviews with a selection of leading figures in the wider city area, a uniformity of expression was evident concerning the present state of the city and the fundamental or intuitive vision of its future:

      What Urban Limerick Looks Like
      • Retail moving out to suburbs – retail values falling;
      • Nobody manages the entirety of the city: it’s divided up between 3 competing local authorities;
      • Depopulating and looking a bit derelict;
      • It’s going nowhere – even though it could be great;
      • Little development compared to other cities;
      • No joined up thinking – or doing;
      • Economy hanging on a shrinking base;
      • Three huge concentrations of inner city deprivation;
      • City centre dragged down by social and economic imbalance;
      • No heart to the city;
      • Absence of vibrancy and culture;
      • The river could be so much more;
      • Hardly any tourism – very little to attract them;
      • Business areas abandoned after work;
      • The bigger city has no leadership;
      • The city is not embraced by the people – they don’t own it;
      • Not even a cinema;
      • Terrible reputation for crime that’s probably undeserved but these things are self-fulfilling;
      • There is no vision

      How Urban Limerick Should Look
      • A growing city for the region – could be a 250,000 metropolitan population;
      • A proper city with ambitious and accountable government with a can-do attitude;
      • A honeypot for inward investment – a counterbalance to the overheated east;
      • A bustling and exciting waterfront – an iconic heart to the city;
      • Vibrancy in the city centre – 18-24 hour city;
      • A critical mass of tourist attractions;
      • Family-friendly city with the homes and amenities that encourage people with economic choice to live in the city;
      • The retail centre for the region;
      • The university an inextricable element of the city brand – connecting socially and culturally with the city as well as economically,
      • New economic activities – a knowledge industry growth centre – renewed synergies with a growing 3rd and 4th level;
      • Excellent transportation infrastructure and interconnectivity with other Atlantic cities – people able to commute between them;
      • Docklands and King’s Island new and wonderful mixed use extensions to the city centre;
      • Several big civic pride icons – buildings and places to put us on the world stage;
      • Citizens taking pride and caring for their city;
      • Leadership;
      • A city known for arts and culture;
      • A city with a vision

    • #805685
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @CologneMike wrote:

      Maybe the council should issue hard hats to the school kids if they intend to keep ignoring the state of the streets surrounding the town hall. 😡 Anybody know exactly which building collapsed?

      Bella Arts and Crafts- Hasn’t been open for about 6-7 years now. Owned by someone with a three lettered surname I think.
      It is the blue building at the very right of your photo in this post
      https://archiseek.com/content/showpost.php?p=108169&postcount=60

    • #805686
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Thanks everybody for the comments; the ‘solutions’ to the problems are well known, but it’s the need to implement them with some sense of purpose that’s required – the ‘vision thing’. The fragmenation of the city into three l/a areas clearly doesn’t help and the sooner the boundary is extended the better. But there needs to be a much stronger feeling for what urban and urban heritage is; King’s Island should be like York or Chester (can’t think of a good example from here – Perth’s probably the nearest), but I think the ‘contemporary’ intervention at the Castle was a mistake (it’s far too industrial) and you clearly don’t need to invent building types from some fake past, but the area does need some life and activity about it – maybe by the time of the next boom there will be some kind of plan in place (now’s the time to do it).
      The river is, of course, magnificent, but Moyross… The army should just blitz it in a night, grab all the guns and get all the hoods in court and jail them for possession of offensive weapons, for a very long time. I know, it will never happen. Query, why did all the ‘decent’ pepole allow the situation to develop to the point it has, and are the Gardai just afraid of the thugs? No city should have an area as persistently and notoriously violent as Moyross. We don’t, and I come from Glasgow.

    • #805687
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I think they would be better off trying to polish up the outlying areas around Newtown, up by the station, top of William St., etc. and yet retain the old buildings and streetscapes here. And indeed build on the planned redevelopment of William Street and the work on Thomas/Catherine St. by focussing not on Opera Centre area, but on Newtown/the other side of William St.

      King’s Island to me seems a lost cause, and between there and William Street seems irrevocably wrecked by poorly thought-out modern failures.

      Best to try to preserve Newtown and the old areas between St. John’s Cathedral and the Station (and even what’s left on Broad/John’s St. and High St. – especially with the redeveloped market – plonking in just one well-thought out development on Mungret St. where the furniture store is, or the units nearer Broad St. would do a lot). There are still so many wee shops around these areas too, even if they are local and some a bit down-market (although some are just traditional).

    • #805688
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      The King’s Island Seminar (Saturday 28th August)

      The King’s Island is situated on the Abbey and Shannon Rivers and is featuring King John’s Castle and Saint Mary’s Cathedral. It is both an important link with Limerick’s Past and a vital part of Limerick’s Present. Find out more about King’s Island and its Heritage!

      Programme:

      9.30am Registration
      10.00am Welcome
      10.15am King’s Island from Prehistory to the Vikings
      11.45am Tea Break
      12.00pm King John’s Castle
      12.45pm Lunch Break
      14.00pm Medieval and Post-Medieval Developments on King’s Island
      14.45pm Industry on King’s Island
      15.30pm Tea Break
      15.45pm King’s Island today and in the Future
      16.30pm Finish

      Booking recommended. Places are being allocated on a first-come, first-served basis. For further information about our events contact: 061-490080 or email education@huntmuseum.com

      National Heritage Week Events ~ Hunt Museum

    • #805689
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I obviously cannot be there, but a brief summary from someone who can be would be very welcome. I hope this will be a briskly discursive event and not just a stroll through urban history.

    • #805690
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Nicholas Street Protest ~ Absentee Landlords

      Limerick Sinn Féin Councillor with local party members, residents and traders protesting at the deterioration of Nicholas Street.

      “Absentee Landlords” funny how Irish history seems to repeat itself!

      On Bridge Street there is a new planning application (10173) fronting onto St. Mary’s Cathedral.

      Pity that the two-storey building to the right could not be incorporated too, in order maximise the street frontage.

      Previous posts 10, 19.

      Alterations to planning permission reference P08/269, change use from a 4 storey office building to a 4 storey building with a retail unit (cafe/restaurant use) at ground floor, and 11 apartments at ground and above ground level, (4 two bed & 7 one bed), alterations to the elevations, works to the existing boundary walls and all associated ancillary works at the site adjacent to the former post office.

    • #805691
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      More promises ? From Limerick Post this week

      I see that the local SF protest put a number of posters on the derelict buildings. A really simple and good idea which others should consider.

      A MAJOR revamp is proposed for the run-down Nicholas Street area, spearheaded by City Council and Shannon Development, who want to change Limerick city from a service to a destination centre.

      Moves are also afoot to boost trade by transporting passengers from ships that dock at Foynes Harbour to the city. Shannon Development’s chief executive, Eoghan Prendergast, confirmed that, in co-operation with council, it is driving forward a major revamp of King John’s Castle.
      “The castle’s performance has slipped, but we have an application in for funding to develop it and bring in tourism – we hope to have 100,000 visitors annually.
      “The project we are going after will be the linchpin for further development of Nicholas Street, as well as a major development for Castle Lane”.
      Reminding a meeting this week that in 1985, the council demolished 26 houses inside King John’s Castle, Cllr Kevin Kiely said that people had been told then that the castle and Nicholas Street area would become Limerick’s Temple Bar
      “With 75% of Nicholas Street derelict, it needs a major investment. When we closed the street to traffic it was to develop tourism, but I believe that the reason it did not succeed was competition between Bunratty Castle and King John’s – we should have a separate management.
      “Speculators got buildings on the street for half nothing but we must now develop the street and we need to consult with the businesses and let them know of our plans”.
      Meanwhile, Mr Prendergast revealed they were working with the Shannon Foynes Port Company to get people off the ships that berth there, to visit Limerick city, and also get visitors from Cork Harbour to Limerick – in Belfast, they bring in 100,000 visitors annually from cruisers.
      “The Irish naval vessel, the LE Eithne, has told us they love coming to Limerick because the port is in the middle of the city – Cllr Jim Long is right in his suggestion that ships could sail into and berth in Limerick Docks”.

    • #805692
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @cheebah wrote:

      More promises ? From Limerick Post Nicholas Street revamp on agenda

      Mary has informed Willie . . . . . .

      Investment in Limerick’s medieval area could make it our ‘Temple Bar’ (Limerick Leader)

      By Anne Sheridan

      KING John’s Castle and the Nicholas Street area could still become ‘Limerick’s Temple Bar’ by 2012 as a major €5 million redevelopment plan is due to be signed off at Government level.

      Deputy Willie O’Dea said he has been informed by Minister for the Arts, Sport and Tourism, Mary Hanafin, that she has given approval for a significant redevelopment of King John’s castle and Nicholas Street.

      It is understood the full scale of works could cost in the region of €5 million, but this has not been confirmed.

      Spearheaded by Limerick City Council and Shannon Development, the plans are part of a proposal to turn Limerick into a major tourist destination.

      Shannon Development had applied to the department earlier this year for funding for the works. As part of the overall proposals, some of the derelict units in Nicholas Street would be converted to shops specifically aimed at tourists, while there would be apartments on the upper floors.

      Deputy O’Dea welcomed the announcement of funding, which is expected to provide additional employment and boost trade for retailers,

      He said he understood from Shannon Development that the Castle’s performance has slipped in recent years, “but they hope that this redevelopment will attract 100,000 visitors annually.”

      “This will be a major boost for traders in the area who I know are desperate for something to be done to improve the area,” he said.

      Shannon Development’s chief executive, Eoghan Prendergast, told a council meeting earlier this month that the project will be “the linchpin for further development of Nicholas Street, as well as a major development for Castle Lane.”

      Fine Gael Cllr Kevin Kiely said 75 per cent of Nicholas Street is derelict, even though the area was primed in in the 1980’s to become “Limerick’s Temple Bar.”

      He said the volume of people that visit the area is “unparalleled”, due to the clustering of “unrivalled” attractions such as King John’s Castle, St Mary’s Cathedral, the Treaty Stone, St Munchin’s Graveyard, and Clancy Strand in the general area.

    • #805693
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      How much would 5 million achieve and how many derelict sites do Shannon Development own on Nicholas street?

      The problems with Nicholas street go far further than needing to open a few tourist shops, welcome as that might be (if done correctly). Why are Shannon Development so afraid of setting out their own vision for the Island?

      Also, it’s worth mentioning that CAB are supposedly about to target the houses owned on the Island field by the gangs. If they can remove the gangs from the Island field (very unlikely, imo) they could completely alter the security of the entire King’s Island.

    • #805694
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @johnglas wrote:

      Thanks everybody for the comments; the ‘solutions’ to the problems are well known, but it’s the need to implement them with some sense of purpose that’s required – the ‘vision thing’. The fragmenation of the city into three l/a areas clearly doesn’t help and the sooner the boundary is extended the better. But there needs to be a much stronger feeling for what urban and urban heritage is; King’s Island should be like York or Chester (can’t think of a good example from here – Perth’s probably the nearest), but I think the ‘contemporary’ intervention at the Castle was a mistake (it’s far too industrial) and you clearly don’t need to invent building types from some fake past, but the area does need some life and activity about it – maybe by the time of the next boom there will be some kind of plan in place (now’s the time to do it).

      The river is, of course, magnificent, but Moyross… The army should just blitz it in a night, grab all the guns and get all the hoods in court and jail them for possession of offensive weapons, for a very long time. I know, it will never happen. Query, why did all the ‘decent’ pepole allow the situation to develop to the point it has, and are the Gardai just afraid of the thugs? No city should have an area as persistently and notoriously violent as Moyross. We don’t, and I come from Glasgow.

      Just wondering are you confusing Moyross with St. Mary’s Park?

      Moyross is the large council estate out near Thomond Park, it’s not really a city centre problem (but yes it is a city problem), it’s been reasonably quiet for a good while now.

      St. Mary’s Park is the housing estate near King John’s castle, which is a city centre problem, imo.

    • #805695
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @johnglas wrote:

      Thanks everybody for the comments; the ‘solutions’ to the problems are well known, but it’s the need to implement them with some sense of purpose that’s required – the ‘vision thing’. The fragmenation of the city into three l/a areas clearly doesn’t help and the sooner the boundary is extended the better. But there needs to be a much stronger feeling for what urban and urban heritage is; King’s Island should be like York or Chester (can’t think of a good example from here – Perth’s probably the nearest), but I think the ‘contemporary’ intervention at the Castle was a mistake (it’s far too industrial) and you clearly don’t need to invent building types from some fake past, but the area does need some life and activity about it – maybe by the time of the next boom there will be some kind of plan in place (now’s the time to do it).
      The river is, of course, magnificent, but Moyross… The army should just blitz it in a night, grab all the guns and get all the hoods in court and jail them for possession of offensive weapons, for a very long time. I know, it will never happen. Query, why did all the ‘decent’ pepole allow the situation to develop to the point it has, and are the Gardai just afraid of the thugs? No city should have an area as persistently and notoriously violent as Moyross. We don’t, and I come from Glasgow.

      Well that’s true, but mainly because Glasgow is more democratic and likes to spread its violence around. If you walk alone at night in ANY area of Glasgow, besides the West End, you ought to be carrying pepper spray.

      Besides, Moyross isn’t even the most violent place in Ireland. It might be the most notorious, but mainly because the Dublin based media want to deflect attention away from their own cesspits.

    • #805696
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Castle Street ~ Dutch-Gables Brocas Print from 1826

      Here a few images of Castle Street and The Parade (Nicholas Street) from the 1920’s to 2000.

      Castle Street Corner prior to present day development (Limerick Civic Trust).

      Castle Street gable building (demolished to make way for the Northern Relief Road / Abbey Bridge).

      Aerial of Castle Street Corner / The Parade, prior to construction of the Northern Relief Road.

      Castle Street Corner / The Parade (Nicholas Street) 1920’s. The five gabled buildings on the right are also gone.

      Birds-eye- view / blue arrow indicates the travelling direction of the truck for the image above.

      Source Limerick Civic Trust, Limerick Museum and Bygone Limerick.

    • #805697
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Why can’t we upload photos any more ?

      I’d wanted to show the 20 year heap of rubbish behind the Island Field houses.

    • #805698
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @teak wrote:

      Why can’t we upload photos any more ?

      I’d wanted to show the 20 year heap of rubbish behind the Island Field houses.

      In this case, divine providence must’ve stepped in…

      ^^
      UU~

      ONQ.

    • #805699
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Such nonsense from Jan O’Sullivan.

      Only 33 houses built in the regeneration program because “there was no planning or co-ordination”.

      The planning for these schemes was nothing short of extravagant, just look at all the firms who got a grand oul swing out of it :

      http://www.limerickregeneration.ie/the-masterplans/

      It’s clear that the dough allocated for this “transformation” was directed elsewhere in amongst the jigs and reels of new government’s scratching around.

      Thing I don’t get in this is why the Head of Regeneration, John Fitzgerald, just doesn’t walk away from it all.

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