Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

some other ideas…

Very nice!

The tradition on Archiseek seems to be to develop old threads related to the topic in question, where possible. I’m sure there is already a College Green thread, somewhere.

@missarchi wrote:

some other ideas…

That’s actually really cool. I’d be in for it, but they’d need to figure out a way so that traffic could still get where it needs to go and have a good underground/overground (luas) system in place.

@Seamus O’G wrote:

The tradition on Archiseek seems to be to develop old threads related to the topic in question, where possible. I’m sure there is already a College Green thread, somewhere.

https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=3377

Love it, although I’d like to see what the alternative route for traffic will be. It will never happen of course because it’s very adventurous and any sort of creativity doesn’t cut it in Ireland. My faith was lost in this country when ABP insisted on scaling the size of the main enterence into Dublin Central from a grand public walkway to a narrow gap between two buildins with sharp corners on either side, pitiful.

I think that any future scheme for the pedestrianisation of College Green does, almost, cry out for a fountain, of some sort, to be included.

In addition, what would be the chances that the area in front of the House of Lords entrance of the Bank of Ireland, would be included in any pedestrianisation?

@kinsella wrote:

I think that any future scheme for the pedestrianisation of College Green does, almost, cry out for a fountain, of some sort, to be included.

In addition, what would be the chances that the area in front of the House of Lords entrance of the Bank of Ireland, would be included in any pedestrianisation?

Is that the entrance facing Pearse Street? If so, almost 0% – the road would presumably turn directly into Pearse St, which would become 2 way, for this to work.

And yes, it’d be tragic to build this without a fountain. It doesn’t have to be huge, I think the most important point is you want to fill the square with that wonderful sound of running, cascading water. So atmospheric.

Perhaps something low lying like this? So as not to obscure the architectural views:

@cgcsb wrote:

Love it, although I’d like to see what the alternative route for traffic will be.

I was thinking, include Grafton Street outside TCD in the plaza. Somehow make St. Andrew Street wider and 2 way. Then, rather than make Pearse St. 2 way the whole way down, improve Fleet/Townsend Street as 1 way the opposite way. Of course, have luas running through the plaza and a good dublinbikes station and it wouldn’t disrupt traffic too much. How the buses would divert is beyond me though!?

Here’s a quick sketch of what I mean:

@OisinT wrote:

I was thinking, include Grafton Street outside TCD in the plaza. Somehow make St. Andrew Street wider and 2 way. Then, rather than make Pearse St. 2 way the whole way down, improve Fleet/Townsend Street as 1 way the opposite way.

I hope this is a joke

1) road-widening – widening St Andrew St – are you insane?
2) urban streets wider than one lane should be two way, end of story.

Andrew St is not suitable at all for two way traffic, it can barely get one bus down it, it’s also very steep, far too dangerous for a one way system. To make this happen, it will require a hard engineering solution, like a tunnel.

@notjim wrote:

I hope this is a joke

1) road-widening – widening St Andrew St – are you insane?
2) urban streets wider than one lane should be two way, end of story.

Yes, I am insane – posting this from Dundrum actually! Your ability to spot my illness is amazing… but your grasp on the meaning of the word insane is, however, slim at best.

1) only a suggestion, and without actually going out and surveying the street could either of us know that it is possible or not. While it is highly likely that it would be impossible impractical, one has to start somewhere.
2) yes, as notjim declares all streets wider than one lane should be two way, so it shall be. How is that working out for you thus far?

As for tunnel, that’ll probably never happen – barring some other more practical solution I’d say that makes this idea void ab initio.

1) It can’t be widened without knocking buildings and anyway any urban scheme which involves widening roads for traffics is by definition insane.
2) Very well, the two way streets, sadly not universal, are much kinder on pedestrians, cyclists and other urban users.

Andrew street is narrow, it has a very pleasant atmosphere, it’s very narrow, why destroy it by widening the carriageway? It would never work, a new solution needs to be found,

I’m not attacking your idea by any means, but from a civil engineering point of view, it is a non starter, a tunnel would be a runner, but very expensive and time consuming, I’m sure a simpler traffic solution will be met. I think buses should share space with luas and there should be 2 bus lanes maintained through college green between trinners and dame st.

The whole philosophy is wrong: the idea isn’t to try to cope with the same traffic and think of distructive or expensive ways to hack out a little car free space so it can be decorated with prissy features, the goal is to get heavy traffic completely the fuck out of the city center where it has no business being.

@notjim wrote:

The whole philosophy is wrong: the idea isn’t to try to cope with the same traffic and think of distructive or expensive ways to hack out a little car free space so it can be decorated with prissy features, the goal is to get heavy traffic completely the fuck out of the city center where it has no business being.

what would you suggest?

If the flow of Anglesea street were reversed, traffic coming from O’Connell Bridge should turn from D’olier st onto fleet street (Fleet Street needs to be resurfaced) across Westmoreland street down past the Thunderoad and left onto Anglesea street where there will be right turns only

Those wishing to travel towards O’Connell street from the Patrick St/ Christchurch direction should divert via Winetavern street and head east along the quays.

Get rid of the taxi rank on College Green, Get rid of the taxi rank on Grafton Street (beside Molly Malone)

Allow busses and luas through college green only. change Nassau street to busses and Luas only.

Pedestrianise Suffolk St. and reverse the flow of Andrew street between Trinity St and the Enfo centre.

This will allow north bound busses to take a more direct route (via grafton st).

Pedestrianise the part of Westmoreland St. south of the bag shop, and allow traffic to turn right onto Westmoreland from college street.

Reduce the width of Westmoreland Street from 5 lanes to, say 3, to accomidate Northbound luas and buses as well as widening the pavement on the west side of Westmoreland st.

Sacrifice one lane on O’Connell Bridge for widening the footpath on the west side.

This will improve the experience of walking between the Henry and Grafton Street shopping areas significantly

@cgcsb wrote:

what would you suggest?

What the council seems to be doing, but perhaps too slowly; the gradual re-routing of traffics away from the whole urban core through a series of incremental and small measures, banning this turn or that, widening that footpath or this, banning non-bus traffic here and there and hopefully, eventually, changing road to streets by making them two-way, with generous footpaths and leisurely pedestrian lights. We don’t need a grand scheme to make a small traffic free space in the midst of traffic hell, we need to radically reduce the amount of traffic.

@cgcsb wrote:

what would you suggest?

I’d suggest pedestrianizing everything between High St/Patrick St., Kevin St., Dawson St., and the Quays. Phase one of a long-term plan to pedestrianize everything between the Canals, replacing cars with rail and trams. Christchurch and College Green become city squares, and Dame Street linking them becomes a long pedestrianized centre of focus in Dublin, like the Royal Mile in Edinburgh.

Yixian, you have my full support for pedestrian college green but the key problem with Dublin is how people move about. Unlike most cities in the world Dublin is massively dependent on the motor vehicle and i cant see college green being given back to the people until this is resolved. Then lower grafton st, college green, westmoreland street and possibly even Dame st could all be pedestrianised. Dublin once had one of the finest tram systems in the world but since independence we have added very little to this system and destroyed an awful lot that was excellent

@rumpelstiltskin wrote:

I’d suggest pedestrianizing everything between High St/Patrick St., Kevin St., Dawson St., and the Quays. Phase one of a long-term plan to pedestrianize everything between the Canals, replacing cars with rail and trams. Christchurch and College Green become city squares, and Dame Street linking them becomes a long pedestrianized centre of focus in Dublin, like the Royal Mile in Edinburgh.

That’s far too extreme, everything inside the canals? including the suburban housing estates of Cabra? come off it. There is no need for pedestrianisation on that scale.

@pulp wrote:

Yixian, you have my full support for pedestrian college green but the key problem with Dublin is how people move about. Unlike most cities in the world Dublin is massively dependent on the motor vehicle and i cant see college green being given back to the people until this is resolved. Then lower grafton st, college green, westmoreland street and possibly even Dame st could all be pedestrianised. Dublin once had one of the finest tram systems in the world but since independence we have added very little to this system and destroyed an awful lot that was excellent

I wouldn’t suggest doing this before DARTu/MN come into play, but when they do there’ll be no excuse anymore not to force heavy traffic out of the centre of Dublin as has been done in near enough every other European capital to great success.

Some of the streets such as College Green, Dame St, Westmoreland street could be fully pedestranised while Dawson street et all could be open to traffic but made so awkward that most would avoid it but once there is an alternative to getting in and around the city which is still a longe way off at the moment. This could be a wonderful city if it was freed up from traffic and we started to think big. Think of all those European cities full of narrow cobbled streets where people are very happy to live, work and socialise all within walking and cycling distance. How is this made possible? the absence of traffic belching out noxious fumes, filling the city air our lungs and staining our buildings, threatening people with every turn.

I don’t think Westmoreland St and Dame st warrent pedestrianisation. They are both very wide and could be very useful from a traffic management perspective. That being said Westmoreland st needs it’s western footpath widened by at least one traffic lane and there needs to be dedicated space to northbound bus/luas

Have you ever tried crossing Westmoreland street? A wall of buses?

If we could pedestrianise College green, it would be a massive improvement to the city.

In Madrid they’ve tunnelled a road beneath the plaza infront of the Royal Palace. It’s only about 300m long and the entrance isn’t very intrusive.

See it here: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=40.415867,-3.713383&num=1&t=k&sll=40.416691,-3.700345&sspn=0.272119,0.512238&ie=UTF8&ll=40.41599,-3.713218&spn=0.00096,0.002411&z=19

@rumpelstiltskin wrote:

I’d suggest pedestrianizing everything between High St/Patrick St., Kevin St., Dawson St., and the Quays. Phase one of a long-term plan to pedestrianize everything between the Canals, replacing cars with rail and trams. Christchurch and College Green become city squares, and Dame Street linking them becomes a long pedestrianized centre of focus in Dublin, like the Royal Mile in Edinburgh.

Here, Here!!!

@damcw wrote:

If we could pedestrianise College green, it would be a massive improvement to the city.

In Madrid they’ve tunnelled a road beneath the plaza infront of the Royal Palace. It’s only about 300m long and the entrance isn’t very intrusive.

See it here: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=40.415867,-3.713383&num=1&t=k&sll=40.416691,-3.700345&sspn=0.272119,0.512238&ie=UTF8&ll=40.41599,-3.713218&spn=0.00096,0.002411&z=19

Yeah, that’s actually a pretty good idea.

No it’s not.

underground car park is an option as per other thread whether this is desirable is another question.

http://architecturelab.net/2010/03/15/place-de-la-republique-proposal-by-mateo-arquitectura/

@notjim wrote:

No it’s not.

Why not ?

@Global Citizen wrote:

Why not ?

While that looks ok from the air, when you’re there you just get the impression of a bunch of motorways and concrete structures all over the place. It’s really unpleasant, and would look a lot worse in an Irish climate. We need to be getting rid of traffic, not building huge ugly concrete things which cut up and uglify the public realm.

@Global Citizen wrote:

Why not ?

It is completely wrong approach, it’s arseways nonsense: it conceptualizes the city as a series of heritage or architectural set-pieces linked by expensive and destructive pieces of traffic infrastructure: Dublin-land, now easier to enter! We need to think about the city, the whole city, the whole historic fabric, the whole issue of how people live and work in the city and have faith that when we sort that out, or at least improve that, a College Green civic space, free, or at least un-hindered, by traffic will emerge.

@notjim wrote:

It is completely wrong approach, it’s arseways nonsense: it conceptualizes the city as a series of heritage or architectural set-pieces linked by expensive and destructive pieces of traffic infrastructure: Dublin-land, now easier to enter! We need to think about the city, the whole city, the whole historic fabric, the whole issue of how people live and work in the city and have faith that when we sort that out, or at least improve that, a College Green civic space, free, or at least un-hindered, by traffic will emerge.

You either don’t live in Dublin or you don’t drive. For some, the option to not drive doesn’t exist and ease of navigation in the city is important. Sorry, the car has been invented and roads have been built – if we want to reclaim the heritage and concept of how people live and work it must be done in harmony with the automobile and traffic solutions other than “drive around it” need to be worked out.

Just because you don’t think it’s a good idea, doesn’t mean that it isn’t a conceptual start to the right idea. You don’t seriously believe that people come up with anything perfectly on the first go?

You see what I mean, scratch one of these make-College-Green-special people and they start preaching the need to build the city around sub-urban commuters!

I’m actually an urban commuter my main commute is from the Docklands to Church St. but I cannot take public transportation.
You seem to think that to make anything better you just need to ban the car. I’m saying why can’t we find a solution that makes the city better without destroying functionality of city centre.

So which is it, don’t live in Dublin or don’t drive?

* walks away whistling *

@OisinT wrote:

I’m actually an urban commuter my main commute is from the Docklands to Church St. but I cannot take public transportation.
You seem to think that to make anything better you just need to ban the car. I’m saying why can’t we find a solution that makes the city better without destroying functionality of city centre.

So which is it, don’t live in Dublin or don’t drive?

Do you drive from Docklands to Church St? I presume you need the car for your work then? No bike? And it couldn’t be more than a half hour walk?

@notjim wrote:

* walks away whistling *

I’ll take it neither.

@alonso wrote:

Do you drive from Docklands to Church St? I presume you need the car for your work then? No bike? And it couldn’t be more than a half hour walk?

I don’t need the car for work, but there are days I have literally 2 or 3 large boxes filled with binders and paperwork. (most days actually) I used to walk/bus everywhere and I still do if I’m going anywhere besides work.
I definitely think that city centre ought to be more geared for pedestrians and mass transit, but just to say “ban the car” totally is a bit excessive. Pedestrianising College Green would be fantastic for the city, but needs to include a way to keep traffic flowing

Hmmm lots of files on the way to Church st? Sounds like we have a legal eagle here on Archiseek 😉

Anyway yeh I don’t agree that we can ban the car from a massive swathe of the city centre but there’s ways to make College Green car free. There’ll have to be. It’s going to be dug up at some stage.

@alonso wrote:

Hmmm lots of files on the way to Church st? Sounds like we have a legal eagle here on Archiseek 😉

good guess 😉

Even if you banned cars of College Green tomorrow, there is still the matter of the hundreds/thousands of Dublin Buses which use College Green in both directions. If you pedestrian college green without a tunnel like I linked to above, what the hell is going to happen to these buses?

@rumpelstiltskin wrote:

While that looks ok from the air, when you’re there you just get the impression of a bunch of motorways and concrete structures all over the place. It’s really unpleasant, and would look a lot worse in an Irish climate. We need to be getting rid of traffic, not building huge ugly concrete things which cut up and uglify the public realm.

Well I’ve been there, and it was raining, and the thing is barely noticable. Look at it in street view, if it took a couple of those to create an entirely pedestrianised college green, then I think that is a worthy trade off.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=40.415867,-3.713383&num=1&t=k&sll=40.416691,-3.700345&sspn=0.272119,0.512238&ie=UTF8&ll=40.41599,-3.713218&spn=0.00096,0.002411&z=19

Dublin is in a fairly unique situation; the centre is made up of small narrow streets and roads but the only way for the vast majority of people to transit is via private car or bus; both using road space that was never designed for this level of traffic. This is an issue of lack of infrastructure and poor planning over the last 100 years. Most cities Dublins size even in far less developed countries have mass transit systems.

There are far too many cars and buses in the city centre but as things exist there is no alternative. We need a number of underground lines including the 2 already planned and possibly another north south from Navan Road via Heuston to Terenure/rathfarnham and possibly a West/East motorway tunnel; combine N4/N6/N7 west of Heuston going underground and surfacing around the Docklands but charge to incentivise people to use the Metro. Then we can pretty much pedestrianise, restrict traffic as much as we like.

@OisinT wrote:

I’m actually an urban commuter my main commute is from the Docklands to Church St. but I cannot take public transportation.
You seem to think that to make anything better you just need to ban the car. I’m saying why can’t we find a solution that makes the city better without destroying functionality of city centre.

So which is it, don’t live in Dublin or don’t drive?

Luas red line, Docklands to the Four Courts, or Smithfield, right around the corner from Church Street.

I’ve used one of these: http://www.bikehod.com/bike-hod/index.html
and it works pretty well, clips off the bike and you can wheel it into your office.

If I were you I would also drive this journey because it’s easier and more comfortable and convenient and because at the end of the day I am a lazy bastard.

@cgcsb wrote:

Luas red line, Docklands to the Four Courts, or Smithfield, right around the corner from Church Street.

With 3+ boxes of files and books? I’ve taken the Luas many times when I don’t have too much to carry. Realistically just bringing the court rules with me is a pain!

@damcw wrote:

Well I’ve been there, and it was raining, and the thing is barely noticable. Look at it in street view, if it took a couple of those to create an entirely pedestrianised college green, then I think that is a worthy trade off.
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I’m with damcw on this one.
An underpass would be ideal under College Green.
Like the one mentioned in Madrid, similar tunnels work well in other cities.
Avenue du Général Lemmonier in Paris is invisible as you walk unhindered from The Tuilries to The Louvre.

An underpass would be ideal under College Green.
Like the one mentioned in Madrid, similar tunnels work well in other cities.
Avenue du Général Lemmonier in Paris is invisible as you walk unhindered from The Tuilries to The Louvre.

I agree it would be ideal. Pity Metro North isn’t deeper underground

“I agree it would be ideal. Pity Metro North isn’t deeper underground”

But it is, someone correct me but AFAIK it is some 25m down under College Green

The underpass thing would be a good idea I think; yes, it would probably cost more than its worth in fiscal terms, and knowing Ireland it would cost twice that again and no one would think to do it in tandem with the metro and have to retrofit it costing even more money and the conservation nazis would get their knickers in a twist; but its good to think big, we need projects with more balls.

Major flaw for the underpass idea would be our buses being 2 storey…

Why not go even further? We could build a whole city underground if we wanted to! Toronto has a massive subterranean shopping centre and Edinburgh used to have large parts of itself underground so why can’t Dublin be like that? It’d be a great way to get 20/30 storey buildings built in the middle of Town without aggravating the anti-high rise brigade.

@shed wrote:

Major flaw for the underpass idea would be our buses being 2 storey…

How is that a problem? Have you never used an underpass in Ireland?

@Cathal Dunne wrote:

Why not go even further? We could build a whole city underground if we wanted to! Toronto has a massive subterranean shopping centre and Edinburgh used to have large parts of itself underground so why can’t Dublin be like that? It’d be a great way to get 20/30 storey buildings built in the middle of Town without aggravating the anti-high rise brigade.

Yeah… let’s just aggravate the high-rish brigade 😛

An underpass would be pretty ugly to be honest.

@Yixian wrote:

An underpass would be pretty ugly to be honest.

It all depends on how it would be built, where it would be located and how tastefully it would integrate with the streetscape. Did you look at that one damcw posted earlier in Madrid? Stockholm is full of them and it’s not an ugly city by any stretch. Here’s an overpass and underpass together. There are prettier ones but I can’t find them right now.

@shed wrote:

Major flaw for the underpass idea would be our buses being 2 storey…

This reminds me of the time the Port Tunnel was being built.
Half way through its construction somebody noticed that it wasn’t big enough to accommodate the new generation of super cube trucks.
The governments solution – Ban the trucks altogether.

If an underpass beneath College Green is ever given the go ahead, perhaps someone on the job will get the tape measure out and suss out the height of double decker buses before they start digging.:)

@markpb wrote:

It all depends on how it would be built, where it would be located and how tastefully it would integrate with the streetscape. Did you look at that one damcw posted earlier in Madrid? Stockholm is full of them and it’s not an ugly city by any stretch. Here’s an overpass and underpass together. There are prettier ones but I can’t find them right now.

Actually you’re right the one in Madrid looks pretty good, I was thinking of some of the absolutely revolting underpasses you get here in the UK – they are just horrendous.

An underpass would have to be very elegant and subtle so as not to detract from the Plaza, the only problem is that the roads around there are so narrow, I wonder how it would look given that.

@Yixian wrote:

Actually you’re right the one in Madrid looks pretty good, I was thinking of some of the absolutely revolting underpasses you get here in the UK – they are just horrendous.

An underpass would have to be very elegant and subtle so as not to detract from the Plaza, the only problem is that the roads around there are so narrow, I wonder how it would look given that.

I totally agree with you.

If we could find some streets that could take the entrance/exit without destroying the area, then a pedestrian College Green the fantastic prize!

Damn it, you double posting fiend!

I really don’t think that we should build a concrete tunnel, that not only make it simple for cars to choke our city with noxious fumes, but creates a large porthole in the ground that detracts hugely from the buildings around it..Even that “nice” picture of the one in Madrid looks out of place.I think an Irish built one would look fairly awful.The NRA seem to believe that bulky is beautiful.Seethe third picture here-

http://www.nra.ie/media/Media,4614,en.jpg

There are other roads in the city that the buses can use.I don’t even understand why they clog the most attractive area of our city in the first place..Surely people could get where they want to go from Aungier street on the southside and the north lotts on the northside…Or something like that

Not an expert, but here’s what I would propose.

Thisa still leaves College Street, Westmoreland and D’Olier Street as major bus routes. However, it would require buses that currently go south through College Green to divert down Townsend Street, towards a reversed Westland Row and on towards Merrion Square. I haven’t yet worked out what route they would take going north. Maybe Sandwith Street by the Dart Underground entrance? Any suggestions?

I’m hoping to start a mockup competition on the facebook group soon, but am having trouble producing a “blank canvas” pedestrianised College Green photo with which people can play with – does anyone here have superior Photoshop skills that might be able to help with that?

@CraigFay wrote:

Thisa still leaves College Street, Westmoreland and D’Olier Street as major bus routes. However, it would require buses that currently go south through College Green to divert down Townsend Street, towards a reversed Westland Row and on towards Merrion Square. I haven’t yet worked out what route they would take going north. Maybe Sandwith Street by the Dart Underground entrance? Any suggestions?

Could a redeveloped Hawkins House area replace Nassau Street as the current bus hub? Hawkins House will be close to the O’Connell St metro north station, the proposed connection of the 2 luas lines, and Tara St Dart station. Just a thought.

@damcw wrote:

Could a redeveloped Hawkins House area replace Nassau Street as the current bus hub? Hawkins House will be close to the O’Connell St metro north station, the proposed connection of the 2 luas lines, and Tara St Dart station. Just a thought.

Now there is a good idea !

Or, more simply, why do you need a bus ‘hub’ in the center at all? Buses should go through the centre, not have it as a terminal destination (i.e. no or very little idle time in the centre).

I would prefere if busses could continue to use the green, sharing with luas and the Lucan Line terminating on College Green doesn’t appeal to me, it should continue down Pearse st offering passangers connections to Pearse st station as well as serving the south docks, ringsend and Irishtown areas. The Lucan line in general is a joke, and needs to be rethought and rerouted.

@CraigFay wrote:

Not an expert, but here’s what I would propose.

Thisa still leaves College Street, Westmoreland and D’Olier Street as major bus routes. However, it would require buses that currently go south through College Green to divert down Townsend Street, towards a reversed Westland Row and on towards Merrion Square. I haven’t yet worked out what route they would take going north. Maybe Sandwith Street by the Dart Underground entrance? Any suggestions?

Would that not leave a large unsightly portal right in front of the Houses of Parliament?
I still don’t understand why the buses HAVE to terminate in college green..Bring them through town via another route, terminating outside of the city center.

If a pedestrianised college green is wanted by 2016, a tunnel is not the way to do it.
How long did it take for the port tunnel to get through planning and be built?

Perhaps a tunnel could work if there was a longer time time to do it.

@EIA340600 wrote:

Would that not leave a large unsightly portal right in front of the Houses of Parliament?
I still don’t understand why the buses HAVE to terminate in college green..Bring them through town via another route, terminating outside of the city center.

If a pedestrianised college green is wanted by 2016, a tunnel is not the way to do it.
How long did it take for the port tunnel to get through planning and be built?

Perhaps a tunnel could work if there was a longer time time to do it.

I didn’t suggest a tunnel :confused:

@johnglas wrote:

Or, more simply, why do you need a bus ‘hub’ in the center at all? Buses should go through the centre, not have it as a terminal destination (i.e. no or very little idle time in the centre).

Sorry if I caused confusion!

I didn’t mean redevelop Hawkins House as a bus station for routes to terminate at, instead I meant moving all the bus stops that are currently on Nassau Street (dozens of bus routes stop here) to outside Hawkins House which would allow the buses to take a new route out of the city centre (via Townsend Street) as suggested by Craig. This way, we wouldn’t have thousands of Buses needing to use the “pedestrianised” College Green, and my previous tunnel suggestion could be avoided.

It also puts the dozens of bus routes in close proximity to the Luas, Metro North and DART stops that are planned.

@EIA340600 wrote:

Would that not leave a large unsightly portal right in front of the Houses of Parliament?
I still don’t understand why the buses HAVE to terminate in college green..Bring them through town via another route, terminating outside of the city center.

If a pedestrianised college green is wanted by 2016, a tunnel is not the way to do it.
How long did it take for the port tunnel to get through planning and be built?

Perhaps a tunnel could work if there was a longer time time to do it.

In fairness, at first I also thought it was a map of tunnel entrances, but Craig’s map is of the planned Luas lines and stops.

damcw: pesky foreigner – just ignore me! (But I think the real problem is the attitude of Dublin Bus.)

yep totally agree, what most people fail to realise is that Dublin is choked with a wall of Dublin Buses. Unfortuneatly i have to drive down the quays a couple of times a week (when id dont take the train and luas) and im constantly amazed as the amount of buses nearly empty and the vast majority of them parked.

1) run all buses through the city and terminate each end as Irish Rail plan to do witht their 2 lines.
2) get them away from the central core of O Connell street, westmoreland street and Nassau street.

Result – pedestrianise the core, faster, quicker buses, access to more of the city, less road space used up, less diesel used, less pollution.

Downside – bus drivers cant go for coffee en masses together.

@CraigFay wrote:

I didn’t suggest a tunnel :confused:

Ooops..Sorry about that Craig.

@pulp wrote:

1) run all buses through the city and terminate at each end as Irish Rail plan to do with their 2 lines.

2) get them away from the central core of O Connell street, Westmoreland street and Nassau street.

It would take decades for such a common sense approach to filter through to those who run Dublin Bus.

Not to mention the millions it would cost to pay all the staff their disturbance money in the wake of such drastic changes to their coffee break routine.

@EIA340600 wrote:

Would that not leave a large unsightly portal right in front of the Houses of Parliament?
I still don’t understand why the buses HAVE to terminate in college green..Bring them through town via another route, terminating outside of the city center.

currently, there are no busses terminating services on College Green.

@EIA340600 wrote:

If a pedestrianised college green is wanted by 2016, a tunnel is not the way to do it.
How long did it take for the port tunnel to get through planning and be built?

It took 6 years.
@EIA340600 wrote:

Perhaps a tunnel could work if there was a longer time time to do it.

we have all the time in the world, it is not a critical situation.

@johnglas wrote:

Or, more simply, why do you need a bus ‘hub’ in the center at all? Buses should go through the centre, not have it as a terminal destination (i.e. no or very little idle time in the centre).

Part of the problem is that Dublin City Centre does not have any PROPER city bus terminals (and by the way at least 50% of Dublin buses go through the city centre, the problem is that as the city centre is such a popular stopping point that through buses spend nearly as much time stopped in the city centre as one that terminate there because they are emptying out and refilling)

What Dublin needs is a proper BUS TERMINUS (in a big building) both north and south of the Liffey.

The Northside buses could terminate at Parnell Street and the Southside buses could terminate somewhere around St.Stephens Green.

There could be small “City Imp” style buses that radiate out from each bus terminus and in through through the city centre and over to the other terminus.

did you see arops proposal for tallart?

@cgcsb wrote:

currently, there are no busses terminating services on College Green.

Several buses make their last stop (aka their “terminal” stop) at college green, or just before or after it.

@cgcsb wrote:

we have all the time in the world, it is not a critical situation.

That’s why I said “IF a pedestrianised College Green is wanted by 2016.”
If you read the title of the thread you’ll note that the thread starter had a pedestrianised college green in mind for 2016. 😉
I also said that a tunnel could work if we had ’till after 2016 t do it.

@EIA340600 wrote:

Several buses make their last stop (aka their “terminal” stop) at college green, or just before or after it.

no not one. The nearest terminals are on fleet st and Hawkins street. Not one of them is on College Green.

@EIA340600 wrote:

That’s why I said “IF a pedestrianised College Green is wanted by 2016.”
If you read the title of the thread you’ll note that the thread starter had a pedestrianised college green in mind for 2016. 😉
I also said that a tunnel could work if we had ’till after 2016 t do it.

if the Port Tunnel can be comleted in 6 years. Why not this tunnel? it’d be far shorter, would have no under water sevtions and need not be of motorway standard.

forrestreid: Glasgow has no bus terminal at all for any of the ‘city’ (actually Firstbus) buses; they originate at simple stops or terminals at the beginning and end of each route. (For example, in a Dublin context, Route no.1 would go from Tallaght to Ballymun via the City Centre.) There is a large bus treminal at Buchanan St, but that is the equivalent of Busaras and is for longer, out-of-town routes. A small no. of buses (I can at present think of only one) do have a terminal destination in the ‘city centre’ – not in the ‘deep centre’ – and there is a hub (connecting to subway and overground rail) at Partick, but that is about 2 miles west of the centre.
Buses simply do not need to stop in the centre for any length of time and the last thing you need is some kind of over-engineered tunnel fantasy.

Double post

@cgcsb wrote:

no not one. The nearest terminals are on fleet st and Hawkins street. Not one of them is on College Green.

1, 2, 3, 7b, 7d, 7n, 11/a, 13/a, 14, 14a, 15, 15a, 15b, 15e, 15f, 15n, 16, 16a, 19, 19a, 20b, 25, 25a, 25x, 25n, 26, 27n, 29n, 31n, 33n, 37, 38/a, 39b/c, 39n, 40n, 41x, 41n, 42n, 44, 44b, 44n, 46a, 46b, 46c, 46d, 46e, 48a, 48n, 49n, 50, 51n, 54n, 56/a, 63, 66, 66a, 66b, 66d, 66x, 66n, 67, 67a, 67x, 67n, 69n, 70/a, 70n, 74, 74a, 77, 77a, 77x, 83, 84n, 88n, 92, 116, 118, 121, 122, 123, 128, 140, 142, 145, 151, 150, 746 all stop , according to Dublin Bus, at Trinity College…I can’t be sure, but I know that at least 5 of these that I’ve traveled on call “last stop” there.

Anyway, it dosn’t really make a difference whether or not they make their final stop at college green.What matters is that they pass through it, stopping and lingering on the way.

@cgcsb wrote:

if the Port Tunnel can be comleted in 6 years. Why not this tunnel? it’d be far shorter, would have no under water sevtions and need not be of motorway standard.

Because there is no money and no vision to do it..Other than the vision of some people on this forum.

Do you really think it appropriate to spend money on a tunnel for cars in the city center rather than spending every spare euro on an improved mass public transport?(A tunnel would only be of modest benefit to bus travel times.)

I believe a pedestrianised Green could be achieved without the large amount of cash required to build an underground tunnel in the city center.

@EIA340600 wrote:

1, 2, 3, 7b, 7d, 7n, 11/a, 13/a, 14, 14a, 15, 15a, 15b, 15e, 15f, 15n, 16, 16a, 19, 19a, 20b, 25, 25a, 25x, 25n, 26, 27n, 29n, 31n, 33n, 37, 38/a, 39b/c, 39n, 40n, 41x, 41n, 42n, 44, 44b, 44n, 46a, 46b, 46c, 46d, 46e, 48a, 48n, 49n, 50, 51n, 54n, 56/a, 63, 66, 66a, 66b, 66d, 66x, 66n, 67, 67a, 67x, 67n, 69n, 70/a, 70n, 74, 74a, 77, 77a, 77x, 83, 84n, 88n, 92, 116, 118, 121, 122, 123, 128, 140, 142, 145, 151, 150, 746 all stop , according to Dublin Bus, at Trinity College…I can’t be sure, but I know that at least 5 of these that I’ve traveled on call “last stop” there.

Maybe If I wrote it in capitals, you would understand better, NOT ONE OF THOSE BUS SERVICES TERMINATES AT COLLEGE GREEN!!!!!!!

@EIA340600 wrote:

Because there is no money and no vision to do it..Other than the vision of some people on this forum.

Do you really think it appropriate to spend money on a tunnel for cars in the city center rather than spending every spare euro on an improved mass public transport?(A tunnel would only be of modest benefit to bus travel times.)

I believe a pedestrianised Green could be achieved without the large amount of cash required to build an underground tunnel in the city center.

I don’t advocate for a tunnel myself, some traffic calming measures and diversions are enough to handle the private traffic, I think busses should be allowed access to College Green as long as they share space with the luas and only stop at luas platforms.

@cgcsb wrote:

Maybe If I wrote it in capitals, you would understand better, NOT ONE OF THOSE BUS SERVICES TERMINATES AT COLLEGE GREEN!!!!!!!

Like I said..It dosn’t matter whether or not they terminate there, what matters is they ALL stop there, linger there and pollute there.

Surely we could have a system like johnglas mentioned was in Glasgow.

This will probably make me the brunt of many an ire as usual but – Am I missing something here? What is the point of this? WHY is everyone obsessed with pedestrianising college green? What is this obsession with inconveniencing users of public transport? College green is a transient place for both people and traffic. It is a nightmare to walk around for 2 simple reasons – Trinity and the 5 lane superhighway that runs through the centre.

How would it actually benefit the city? So that tourists could take a photo of the bank and / or trinity without a bus in it? Who would actually choose to go and sit around there and why?. It is surrounded on all sides by tall imposing buildings which allow it virtually no direct sunlight for most of the day, most of the year

All it would do is allow those people travelling from north / south or east / west to avoid waiting for a few sets of traffic lights

Here’s a much cheaper option

Permanent inclusion of the bus corridor

Removal of the wide median in the centre and relocation of the trees to the sides.

Reduction of traffic in both directions to one lane only – adjacent to each other in the centre. Feck the taxi drivers somewhere else and get them the hell out of Foster Place. 2 lanes of traffic are quicker to cross meaning shorter green man times, longer green lights and better traffic flow despite the loss of lanes

Additional space freed up given over to creating 10 metre wide pedestrian areas in front of trinity and the bank. (10m is the equivalent width of Grafton street). This would be even larger if Trinity would move their fence line back (yeah yeah sacrilege etc) but, really, what use is that green space?

This would also allow Foster Place to interact more with College Green with at least one end of it bathed in some form of sunlight. It also allows fluid pedestrian movement whilst allowing people to linger without being shoulder charged into the path of a bus. If you want somewhere nice to sit and have your lunch go into Trinity

There’s no need for tunnels, no need for underpasses or overpasses. People have been crossing roads for years. Buildings aren’t lit up at night any more. The central bank is a dreary thing to look at. WE DON’T HAVE ANY MONEY FOR FRIVOLITY ANYMORE

We don’t have money to not build something public. No country has ever saved their way out of a recession.

@OisinT wrote:

We don’t have money to not build something public. No country has ever saved their way out of a recession.

ummm. yeah

anyway – there’s 589 suggestions on here

https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=3377&page=11

(in case anyone forgot)

@EIA340600 wrote:

Like I said..It dosn’t matter whether or not they terminate there, what matters is they ALL stop there, linger there and pollute there.

Surely we could have a system like johnglas mentioned was in Glasgow.

but that’s not what you origional post was, you said “why do so many busses HAVE to terminate there” I merely pointed out that none do

If this is going to be done, it should be done in small phases. First, something we can all agree on. Get rid of the taxi’s out of foster place and get them off Gafton st. Make the bus gate permanent, put in a zebra crossing then asses the situation. Then if the situation still warrents it, reduce the permanent bus gate to one lane each way, sharing with luas.

@cgcsb wrote:

but that’s not what you origional post was,

Coming from you who originally suggested a tunnel as a solution, and then said-

@cgcsb wrote:

i don’t advocate a tunnel myself

I was just trying to point out that an underground tunnel here seems ridiculous to me.

@EIA340600 wrote:

Coming from you who originally suggested a tunnel as a solution, and then said-

I actually didn’t origionally suggest a tunnel as a solution if you’ll kindly read back on my posts.

the world is your crayon children:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uovMpapeCJQ

erm, relevance?

We’re now accepting mockup submissions on our facebook group, and we’re providing a sample imageto work from.

Here’s my first attempt:

@cgcsb wrote:

I actually didn’t origionally suggest a tunnel as a solution if you’ll kindly read back on my posts.

Yes you did.

@cgcsb wrote:

. To make this happen, it will require a hard engineering solution, like a tunnel.

@Yixian wrote:

We’re now accepting mockup submissions on our facebook group, and we’re providing a sample imageto work from.

Here’s my first attempt:

Not bad…Love the huge cobblestones!!;)

Haha yes, I should probably go back and resize/repeat that texture xD Cobbles would be nice, although flat stone would be nice too, perhaps with a celtic pattern around the fountain in marble.

Actually I forgot to add two stone arches rather like the Fusilier’s arch (or possibly ornate cast iron) on the entrances to the square on Westmoreland and Grafton St.. in fact I will add those in later.

the ball has started rolling and the tap has started dripping…
Yeah I would get rid of those kind of seats!
The arc idea sounds interesting…
it would be good if someone had a wide angle shot from about 30-50 metres back from this photo
that could be used to add more context.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/39464557@N05/3629145725/sizes/l/

sharpen your images if you make them small it makes them more readable.

I quite like that style of bench but I’d definitely move them way out of the way way on reflection, not sure what I was thinking there.

I’ll do a second attempt soon.

@EIA340600 wrote:

Yes you did.

then quote it, I merely discussed it’s advantages/disadvantages never once said I was in favour of it.

I’d prefere a more walkable surface for the bust through pedestrian traffic, cobbles are hard especially when you’re sporting a pair of sensible heels.

my favourite so far is this one with some adjustments:

@cgcsb wrote:

then quote it

I did.You were the first person on the forum to suggest “a hard engineering solution, like a tunnel.”

@EIA340600 wrote:

@cgcsb wrote:

then quote itQUOTE]

I did.You were the first person on the forum to suggest “a hard engineering solution, like a tunnel.”

no, I talked about a hard engineering solution, I never said it was the best solution.

@cgcsb wrote:

I’d prefere a more walkable surface for the bust through pedestrian traffic, cobbles are hard especially when you’re sporting a pair of sensible heels.

Yeah I’m no cobble diehard, just experimenting with some ideas. I see your point – does suit the area though, but then sowould flat stone I imagine.

@cgcsb wrote:

@EIA340600 wrote:

no, I talked about a hard engineering solution, I never said it was the best solution.

But that’s not what you said.You suggested a tunnel then put forward reasons as to how it could work aginst rerouting some traffic.

@EIA340600 wrote:

@cgcsb wrote:

But that’s not what you said.You suggested a tunnel then put forward reasons as to how it could work aginst rerouting some traffic.

Oh for crying out loud…………
Pack it in you two.

This image infers grattan should be moved…
I would tend to agree…

Restoration of Dublin to its Georgian glory urged by report
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0428/1224269221820.html

not wishing to piss on your (pedestrianised) parade but I want to reprint a letter in last week’s Irish Times with regard to commemoration:

Madam, – In 1916, we were a constituent part of that state to which Kevin O’Connor (April 3rd) refers. Whatever its faults in the administration of our affairs, a foreign state it most certainly was not. We had a fully democratic representation in the UK parliament. We elected a majority supporting Home Rule, with a minority favouring the status quo. The Government of Ireland Act 1914 granted us the initial element of independence – autonomy. Our post-war status was to be on a par with the other dominions, all of whom are now successful independent states (Canada and Newfoundland merged in 1949). This achieved, we volunteered in Europe to do our national duty as urged by our Irish leaders.

JOE GEOGHEGAN

if nothing else it’ll give you another 5 years to thrash this thread to death

@wearnicehats wrote:

if nothing else it’ll give you another 5 years to thrash this thread to death

maybe lodge is more appropriate or yesmisterhouse:D

@wearnicehats wrote:

Surely 2021 is the appropriate time to celebrate our first century of independence?

Fair point wearnicehats, celebrate a century of independence on the centenary and not five years early. However, 2016 will not be about celebrating 100 years of independence, it will be about marking the deaths of people who fought and willingly died for it. Who cares is the rising was a bit half arsed in the end, taking over a mill and a post office hardly struck fear into the hearts of the British. Im sure most will agree marking the deaths of some of our greatest patriots is more important then the signing of a piece of paper.

Easter 1916 is a date that is and always will be etched into the hearts and minds of Irish people and this should be celebrated. Just like the millennium was celebrated on 31st December 1999 (at the end of 1999 years, not 2000 which would have been a millennium), it offers a date which is easier to understand and easier to sell.

Anyway, getting back to the point at hand, “Pedestrianise College Green”, 2016 offers a set date to work towards. We all know that a definite completion date which can not be overrun is vitally important to completing publicly funded projects on time. Unfortunately the original budget is usually blown out of the water to ensure the project is completed in time.

As for a tunnel, why go to such lengths to accommodate drivers? The city centre should be kept car free, so far as is possible. Drivers traveling from north to south or south to north should be forced to use the M50, instead of cutting through town to avoid the toll, or all the money spent on upgrades is just a waste. Improved public transport would allow for this, such as Metro and extended Luas Green Line north. Again 2016 gives a set date to achieve this. If we are still just talking about it by then we should just give up on it all.

vote now please…

http://proposals.yourcountryyourcall.com/ct/ct_a_view_idea.bix?c=D284E307-BEF9-4396-AF6E-14009EAB8647&idea_id={AE8374D2-09F0-42B2-89E1-6EEA42821DD1}

(copy n paste)

If we’re going to start linking an urban upgrade of College Green with celebrating1916/1921, I take it re-assembling the equestrian statue of King Billy is off the agenda?

I’m sure this must have been posted before, but it’s probably worth looking again at that real low point in the urban history of College Green, when in 1929, ‘Billy’ was briefly replaced by a facsimilé of an Irish round tower as part of the Eucharistic Congress hysteria 🙂

.

Billy might have been the venue for much vulgar triumphalism of the nasty in-your-face sectarian kind, back in the day, and that probably made the act of sticking a round tower on his plot all the sweeter, but history is history and it would be nice to think that we might be mature enough by now to deal with all aspects of our deep and complex heritage.

Not that Dublin City Council would have anything like enough brass in the coffers to reinstate the horse, let alone the monarch.

Billy isn’t going back; he’d block the QBC coming down Andrews Lane!

In terms of his removal you’d wonder was it a mob that thrashed it or if the provost of Trinity didn’t want the horses rear end pointing at the college and had it removed as was the case with the Pizzaro statue the horse of which had its rear end facing the Cathedral on the Plaza de Armas in Lima.

@PVC King wrote:

Billy isn’t going back; he’d block the QBC coming down Andrews Lane!

On that subject, Suffolk Street / Church Lane has to be one of the least suitable thoroughfares to route such a high volume of buses through. I understand the reasons for it, but in any re-planning of vehicular traffic on College Green, surely this bus channel has to go and the much wider bottom of Grafton Street [at the Hunky-Dory-Molly-Malone] reinstated as the north-south route in both directions.

Obviously, this would only work if east-west traffic on College Green is restricted to just public transport and then seriously reduced, or better still, confined to the Luas only.

another vintage photograph of a clutter-free College Green

It is Church Lane as you say; the (Lower) Grafton Street Angle could work very well but you would need to remove the bus stops on the East side and relocate them and completely declutter the west side of all statues, boxes and poles as the residual space would be quite tight if the road were widened even slightly. The stretch between Dawson Street and College Green is not that long but with a major volume of buses trams etc it is not a very pleasant environment; that said one would hope that post the Luas link up and interconnector that the bus network can be rejigged to stop the majority of buses using O’Connell St and or College Green; I see no need for say a 15 bus to go into college Green as it intersects with Luas at Harcourt stop; equally why does a 31 bus need to go into Marlborough Street as it intersects at Clontarf Dart with trains that go to Tara Street. The strategy with London’s Oxford Street is to reduce bus traffic 10% year on year until people complain about there not being enough buses; the bus companies are as a result keeping capacity for peak times and not running virtually empty buses.

The benefits would be the ability to create a boulevard type pedestrianised street in Suffolk Street; i.e. a longer version of Harry Street, from a tourism point of view it would be convenient to come out of the tourist office in the church and have a pedestrianised environment to either access College Green down Church Lane or Grafton Street via Suffolk Street.

. . . . and then can we have Billy back?

If you replace Ulster Bank with some pastiche infill in the style of Dutch Billy gables it may be possible to have a dutch billy very close by!

As a site for a statue it would be very good; just not convinced that the subject matter proposed would be that popular. Brian O’Driscoll maybe?

Not immediately popular perhaps, but it could be a small but meaningful gesture of reconsiliation towards the people that everyone attempting to commemorate the 1916/1921 events have always said they want to the re-unite the country with.

When you think about it, we’ve allowed Orange-ism to become an ‘Ulster’ thing, when it was always, and uniquely, an ‘Irish’ thing.

It’s just a thought, I’m not starting any facebook campaigns over it 🙂

I’m not convinced that the majority of Ulster folk would be that fussed, recognising the contribution of all Irish war dead from the Somme to Lebanon and doing so on Armistace day would really hit parity of esteem in a much more uniform way that they could buy into; celebrating 1916 in a mature manner reflecting that it was an episode led by poets and trade unionists who rebelled in the full knowledge that theirs was a blood sacrifice against a regime they found unjust and not an ethnic conflict would really display just how far we have come as a country.

Then you could truely say that sectarianism would have one last home in these islands; Glasgow albeit that the SFA aren’t a million miles from erradicating the cancer from the football terraces there either.

@PVC King wrote:

I’m not convinced that the majority of Ulster folk would be that fussed,

They certainly wouldn’t admit to being that fussed, but I think the message would still be received.

@PVC King wrote:

. . . . recognising the contribution of all Irish war dead from the Somme to Lebanon and doing so on Armistace day would really hit parity of esteem in a much more uniform way that they could buy into;

I agree that that would be a more meaningful action, [although I’ve never been totally comfortable with cultures wearing their war dead as collectable trophies] but in terms of Dublin doing something urban and monumental with all these nationalist centeraries coming up, we could do worse than include some civic gesture that begins to, not just acknowledge, but actually celebrate, our huge protestant heritage.

Billy, with all his contradictions, might be one way of doing that.

@PVC King wrote:

. . . celebrating 1916 in a mature manner reflecting that it was an episode led by poets and trade unionists who rebelled in the full knowledge that theirs was a blood sacrifice against a regime they found unjust and not an ethnic conflict would really display just how far we have come as a country.

We’re drifting way off-topic here, but there’s an argument that the men of 1916 were fully conscious that their actions would have profound sectarian consequences [they bought their guns after all from the same source that armed the Ulster Volunteers], but in their self-absorption, they chose not to deal with that.

@gunter wrote:

Not immediately popular perhaps, but it could be a small but meaningful gesture of reconsiliation towards the people that everyone attempting to commemorate the 1916/1921 events have always said they want to the re-unite the country with.

When you think about it, we’ve allowed Orange-ism to become an ‘Ulster’ thing, when it was always, and uniquely, an ‘Irish’ thing.

It’s just a thought, I’m not starting any facebook campaigns over it 🙂

While I agree entirely with you gunter on the reinstatement of King Billy, you must remember our views are not the norm, and the majority of the public (riled up by tabloid press and republicans) would be set against it.

As a compromise, I would like to see a Cenotaph placed there as a focal gathering point for Remembrance Day ceremonies, similar to the one in London (and Cork). Post WW1 there was a Celtic cross in remembrance of the fallen and this was the focal point of Remembrance day ceremonies, with over 100,000 people gathering there in the 20’s for the 11th.

We need more proactive in the urban and civic remembrance of the fallen in WW1 and 2. Everywhere one turns there are monuments to 1916, Civil War, etc. and more recently a disgusting memorial to the “Border Bombers” of the 1950’s in Enniscorthy which was erected by a republican ground with the full approval of the town council.

@lauder wrote:

While I agree entirely with you gunter on the reinstatement of King Billy, you must remember our views are not the norm, and the majority of the public (riled up by tabloid press and republicans) would be set against it.

As a further gesture towards reconciliation and acknowledgement of tradition, notices of invitation to tender for specific consultancy services could be advertised in selected publications, requesting applicants to submit documentation detailing expertise in public marching and cultural expression, with a view to increasing the level of professionalism in the predicted civil protests directed against governmental performance. The establishment of a marching season would assist our ailing tourist industry and provide further economic opportunity to the traditional street-sellers of Dublin Town, particularly those with large stocks of as-yet unsold oranges.:D
.

Rosnawlagh in Co Donegal has catered to that trade for many many years in a welcoming, almost carnival like atmosphere; sadly when one looks at the Love Ulster Fiasco of a few years ago it is clear that certain elements in Dublin haven’t moved on yet. However we could probably get shed loads of cash from the EU to pour loads of concrete by the Boyne for the ‘King Bill Experience’ we could even grant the management concession to Donie Cassidy on condition that he vacates the Wax Museum from Foster Place to an annex at the Boyne it could be The President Billo Museum.

I’m with Lauder on the cenotaph idea; many good Irish people died in the WW’s, Congo, Lebanon amongst other missions; we have a great tradition of protecting people be it the Belgians in WW1 or refusing to shoot spear wielding opponents in the Congo because they didn’t have guns; that needs to be celebrated.

To be honest gunter. I think most people would rather see a big heap of excrement dumped on College Green than have a triumphalist monument to imperialism re-instated!

As a society I think we get too hung up about what others think of us. In more recent times the focus has shifted to a mild obsession about displaying “maturity”. Mostly in terms of our attitude towards Britain. Im sure that most reasonably intelligent people will recognise that Britain has had a major influence on this country.

But then, there are also some elements who almost harbour a sense of guilt, shame or embarrassment over the ending of British rule here. As a result we see some rather pathetic attempts at pandering & appeasement taking place at times. By all means acknowledge the past but equally theres no need to go too far either. Just move forward and get on with it!

Aaaaaaaanyway. In this instance, instead of recreating some relic from the past. Would it not be better to fashion something that’s representative of modern Ireland? Whatever that is.

the only way I can see it happening…

http://www.flickr.com/photos/14980862@N03/2099583097/sizes/l/

it will melt away unless the iceage is coming.

@Tuborg wrote:

Would it not be better to fashion something that’s representative of modern Ireland? Whatever that is.

………….a statue of Charles Haughey? 😉

@lauder wrote:

While I agree entirely with you gunter on the reinstatement of King Billy, you must remember our views are not the norm, and the majority of the public (riled up by tabloid press and republicans) would be set against it.

I would say the majority of the public would be against it for entirely natural and understandable reasons, regardless of the tabloid press and republicans.

As a compromise, I would like to see a Cenotaph placed there as a focal gathering point for Remembrance Day ceremonies, similar to the one in London (and Cork).

A good idea!

Tuborg, I know I’m in a hole and I should stop digging, but . . . .

@Tuborg wrote:

To be honest gunter. I think most people would rather see a big heap of excrement dumped on College Green than have a triumphalist monument to imperialism re-instated!

That’s probably true, but Billy wasn’t some sinister Soviet representation of a scowling Lenin imposed by alien forces, he was erected by the people of Dublin [the majority of] in an act of celebration. Of course it was devisive, all monuments worth erecting are devisive to some extent, the O’Connell monument and the re-naming of Sackville Street was a devisive and triumphalist act of Catholic nationalism!

I wouldn’t have any interest in ”pandering or appeasement”, but I think a more realistic appraisal of our history, and the monuments that celebrate it, wouldn’t do us any harm

Putting Billy back on his horse in College Green may well be seen as a token of our coming of age as a nation. A statement to the wider world that we have cast off the shackles of our colonial past and are no longer hung up about the legacy of the Williamite victories in The Boyne and Aughrim. However as we know only too well in this country, the past is always present where statues and symbols of historic figures are unveiled. And while those calling for the return of King Billy’s statue do so with the best of intentions, I believe such a gesture would be met with a large degree of triumphalism on the part of many within the loyalist community and the love Ulster brigade.
Not something I would encourage.

@gunter wrote:

I wouldn’t have any interest in ”pandering or appeasement”, but I think a more realistic appraisal of our history, and the monuments that celebrate it, wouldn’t do us any harm

There is of course, the legacy of Eric of the Hairyback, the original Viking founder of Dubbelin Town. Legend has it that Eric’s sanitary facilities were located somewhere in the locality around College Green. A fitting memorial would be the provision of a modern 21st century public toilet, which would serve as both a practical public facility as well as representing the current technologically advanced culture of modern day Erin.
As a gesture to the Orange brethern present, I propose that a representation of the Dutch horse-rider could be incorporated into the design of the wc facilities.

And lest it be forgotten, to all dreaming of a London-on-the-Liffey, a war memorial already exits in Islandbridge, namely the Irish National War Memorial Gardens.

@PVC King wrote:

However we could probably get shed loads of cash from the EU to pour loads of concrete by the Boyne for the ‘King Bill Experience’ …

For a moment there, I thought that read the “Kill Bill Experience”…….

Re returning billy, wouldn’t it make more sense if we had some form of the park in budapest where they moved all their communist statues to. Realistically what’s the point in putting it back, it’s going to be vandalised or blown up whatever about all here may think. And it’s about as relevant as replacing dublin bikes with penny farthings. A single location, maybe in phoenix park with all the old removed statues representative of the empire could be placed there for all to view, could be an attraction. And there’s no element of people possibly being offended, it is what it is, a graveyard for a past regime.

As for some of these proposals for college green, no stainless steel bollards. please. PLEASE.

@Global Citizen wrote:

Putting Billy back on his horse in College Green may well be seen as a token of our coming of age as a nation. .

@gunter wrote:

Billy wasn’t some sinister Soviet representation of a scowling Lenin imposed by alien forces, he was erected by the people of Dublin [the majority of] in an act of celebration.

Would a reinstatement of Hitler (no comparison obviously) busts and statues in germany in 200 years time represent a maturing of germany, they did vote him in! sounds more like senility.

This is the king that stood over the penal laws, laws that set a deep rot into most of irish society destroying any sense of ambition, entrepreneurialsim, forward planning and civic mindedness. A day to day, hand to mouth society that walked into a famine and probably spawned our current directionless gombeen political system.

@kinsella wrote:

………….a statue of Charles Haughey? 😉

I think Bertie has well and truly taken over that mantle at this stage.

@gunter wrote:

I wouldn’t have any interest in ”pandering or appeasement”, but I think a more realistic appraisal of our history, and the monuments that celebrate it, wouldn’t do us any harm

I wasn’t referring to you there gunter. I was merely pointing out that there are those who perhaps cling to the past a bit too much. Almost yearning nostalgically for the days of the empire. 😮

The way I see it. If that monument still existed, maybe lying in a scrapyard. Then it could have been put back on display somewhere. However seen as it was destroyed, blown up or whatever. I really don’t see the point in going to the bother of creating a replica. Im my view that would smack of desperation really.

@Global Citizen wrote:

And while those calling for the return of King Billy’s statue do so with the best of intentions, I believe such a gesture would be met with a large degree of triumphalism on the part of many within the loyalist community and the love Ulster brigade.
Not something I would encourage.

I think thats a good point. While many down here would see such a move as progressive. The neanderthal element of those loyal Ulster folk would see it as a victory for their bigoted ideology. Some people actually forget just how hostile the average nordie can be towards “The Free State”.

As regards that charade, the love Ulster march. It was to be nothing more than a lap of honour for the anti-Irish brigade up there. Looking back, it was embarrassing to see just how many people were hoodwinked by the whole thing. Although not as embarrassing as those scummers tearing the place asunder! :rolleyes:

It would probably be better all round if we drop the whole Billy thing [on this thread anyway] Sorry for bringing it up, it’s a distraction from the main subject matter which is the future of College Green. Even if there was ever to be a full reinstatement of the Billy statue on College Green, the impact on the space would probably be quite minimal.

A couple of final points:

@Bago wrote:

Would a reinstatement of Hitler (no comparison obviously) busts and statues in germany in 200 years time represent a maturing of germany, they did vote him in! sounds more like senility.

It seems that, sooner or later, every twisted tyrant, or rampaging hoard of blood thirsty killers, re-enter popular culture as a figure of fun, like Vlad-the-Impailer, or Tayto’s pal, Eric-the-Hairyback, so I suppose it’s only a matter of time before the future equivalent of the Viking Splash tours will take to future city streets with landing craft full of snarling school-age Nazis resplendent in swastika armbands and brandishing inflatible V2 rockets.

@Bago wrote:

This is the king that stood over the penal laws, laws that set a deep rot into most of irish society destroying any sense of ambition, entrepreneurialsim, forward planning and civic mindedness. A day to day, hand to mouth society that walked into a famine and probably spawned our current directionless gombeen political system.

My history is a little rusty, but I came across an early 20th century history of Clonmel recently, and the author, a protestant vicar, made exactly that point, that it was the small-minded pernicious penalties and regulations under the umbrella of the Penal Laws that drained the will and the hope out of the catholic population and turned them into the squalid mass of down-trodden humanity that travellers to this country took as evidence of a national character flaw.

In that context Bago’s summary is right on the money, except that the bulk of the penal laws were enacted well after William’s death in 1702, and if the people responsible for this subsequent penal regime were almost certainly prominent amongst those parading in Orange celebrations, does that make it fair to find William guilty of this by posthumous association?

@Tuborg wrote:

The way I see it. If that monument still existed, maybe lying in a scrapyard. Then it could have been put back on display somewhere. However seen as it was destroyed, blown up or whatever. I really don’t see the point in going to the bother of creating a replica.

That’s a fair point.

The way I heard it, the monument ‘was damaged in an explosion’ in 1929 and the decision was taken to remove it and that this coincided with the Eucharistic Congress etc.
That doesn’t sound like it was destroyed, I wonder if it’s dismantled remains are lying forgotten in a store somewhere?

@Tuborg wrote:

As regards that charade, the love Ulster march. It was to be nothing more than a lap of honour for the anti-Irish brigade up there. Looking back, it was embarrassing to see just how many people were hoodwinked by the whole thing. Although not as embarrassing as those scummers tearing the place asunder! :rolleyes:

I think the whole ‘Love-Ulster’ thing was just misjudged. I think the authorities down here wanted the event to come in under the radar, pass off after attracting only mild attention as if it was no big deal and then afterwards everyone could take their time digesting the huge significance of the fact that it had actually taken place.

Unfortunately not everyone was on the same page.

That it turned into a dangerous fiasco shouldn’t detract from the fact that it was a brave thing to attempt.

There is rumoured to be parts and remnants old statues in the OPW yard at the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham.

Bits could be lying around there. I understand some of Lord Gough, King George IV (from St. Stephen’s Green) and other have parts there.

Will dig out a few books and confirm.

Still thing the advantages available in the opening up of College Green, should allow for a central rallying spot, and ideal for a Remembrance Cenotaph. Ideal target for 2018!

@gunter wrote:

so I suppose it’s only a matter of time before the future equivalent of the Viking Splash tours will take to future city streets with landing craft full of snarling school-age Nazis resplendent in swastika armbands and brandishing inflatible V2 rockets.

Obviously you’ve been on the ‘nazi splash’ in Brest, i wholeheartedly embrace the citys acceptance of it’s recent nautical history.
Billy – Booooh, hisssss……
College green – no stainless steel bollards please. thanks.

@lauder wrote:

There is rumoured to be parts and remnants old statues in the OPW yard at the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham.

Bits could be lying around there. I understand some of Lord Gough, King George IV (from St. Stephen’s Green) and other have parts there.

Will dig out a few books and confirm.

Still thing the advantages available in the opening up of College Green, should allow for a central rallying spot, and ideal for a Remembrance Cenotaph. Ideal target for 2018!

Good idea. The old scrap could be recycled in the form of cast iron bollards.
What about a centrally located maypole? We could invite a few cockney lads over to hop around it singing “Any Old Iron” to mark special days of the Empire.
.

@Tayto wrote:

Good idea. The old scrap could be recycled in the form of cast iron bollards.
What about a centrally located maypole? We could invite a few cockney lads over to hop around it singing “Any Old Iron” to mark special days of the Empire.
.

Or, they could be moulded into something of our own as a symbol of how we’ve taken the remnants of the “empire” and made something of it that is ours.
That’s a bit much though…

As a contrarian by nature, this resurrect King Billy suggestion is just too juicy to let pass.

Does anyone admire the deliberate destruction of Buddhist statues in Afghanistan? Or the Chinese destruction of “imperial” buildings and monuments (and books, pottery, etc.) during the Cultural Revolution? Or any of the iconoclastic movements during history from the Christian destruction of Roman temples to the communist destruction of Christian churches during the Russian revolution? All of these actions could be justifiable in terms of a “wronged” group eventually becoming dominant.

But still, these actions look petty and vindictive from the outside particularly when the symbols no longer represent any sort of threat. And yet the notion of removing/destroying/denying the symbols of an earlier culture always seems to have some sort of appealing logic from the inside.

I worked for a multinational a few years back. One particular work assignment involved spending time in Casablanca. My local colleague drove me around for a look at the city (profoundly disappointing for someone with fond notions influenced by Michael Curtiz). Most was quite bland an uninteresting until I spotted what looked like an almost intact Roman colosseum standing forlornly opposite a normal city block. I started enthusing about this only to be informed, to paraphrase, that the Romans were a bunch of complete bastards in Morocco and killed and enslaved huge numbers of north Africans and it couldn’t happen soon enough that an apartment block or office building would replace this symbol of oppression.

It may well be true that the Romans inflicted terrible misery on the natives but this destruction of a historical remnant sounded horrific to me.

In fact, I’m convinced that “right” and “wrong” have nothing to do with this issue. If it was, then how can anyone stomach the fact that one of the most potent symbols of human moral degeneracy – Auschwitz – has not been leveled into the ground? Yet anyone calling for it’s destruction these days would be laughed at. To draw parallels in this area is very very dodgy indeed but the fact that neo-nazis could derive satisfaction that Auschwitz still stands shouldn’t have any bearing on it. Similarly with extremists from the north and a statue of King Billy.

Personally I think the Brits have gotten off quite lightly in terms of guilt for their record in Ireland (certainly if you read an English history book, it’s shocking to find that you might be lucky to find more than a couple of paragraphs on Ireland) but I have no time at all for the idea that removing remnants of their legacy in Ireland can be justified because of this. Perhaps in the immediate aftermath of the overthrow of an oppressor (Saddam statues and Lenin status or Nazi monuments for example) it is understandable but hundreds of years later, it looks stupid.

So I guess that makes it 2 (assuming gunter hasn’t switched sides in the meantime?) in favour of King Billy being put back in his spot and 4,459,298 against.

@jimg wrote:

So I guess that makes it 2 (assuming gunter hasn’t switched sides in the meantime?) in favour of King Billy being put back in his spot and 4,459,298 against.

I was planning to tip toe quietly away from this one [while I still had kneecaps], but you’ve gone and made a very persuasive case . . . . albeit from the comparative safety of Zurich :rolleyes:

As Tuborg said, even floating the idea hinges, somewhat, on whether substantial remains of the Billy monument actually exist.

God knows who was in charge of proceedings back in 1929, would it have been the Office of Public Works, or Dublin Corporation? It could have been the Legion of Mary for all I know.

@gunter wrote:

I was planning to tip toe quietly away from this one [while I still had kneecaps], but you’ve gone and made a very persuasive case . . . . albeit from the comparative safety of Zurich :rolleyes:

As Tuborg said, even floating the idea hinges, somewhat, on whether substantial remains of the Billy monument actually exist./URL]

God knows who was in charge of proceedings back in 1929, would it have been the Office of Public Works, or Dublin Corporation? It could have been the Legion of Mary for all I know.

Make that 3 in favour, although I’m a floating voter and would except a compromise of a Remembrance Cenotaph!

Interestingly, Lord Gough’s statue late of Phoenix Park, has been reinstated in Ballymun, or at least his horse has!! So it is obviously financially reasonable to do for Billy!

[

http://www.john-byrne.ie/project.php”]http://www.john-byrne.ie/project.php”]http://www.john-byrne.ie/project.php

@gunter wrote:

I was planning to tip toe quietly away from this one [while I still had kneecaps], but you’ve gone and made a very persuasive case . . . . albeit from the comparative safety of Zurich :rolleyes:

I’m not so keen on testing the argument on some of my kith and kin in north Kerry/west Limerick the next time I’m back for a visit. I’d have to time it just as they were taking a sip of tea and then quickly make my goodbyes while they were purple from a mixture of choking and indignation.

As Tuborg said, even floating the idea hinges, somewhat, on whether substantial remains of the Billy monument actually exist.

Indeed – I would go further and say it completely depends on the existence of most of the monument. Constructing a replica would make no sense at all to me. The whole argument may well be academic.

And lauder – my apologies for not including you. With support growing at this rate (50% a day), I can soon see a majority demanding that “our” King Billy be re-instated.

@missarchi wrote:

some other ideas…

Wow!

I only dropped into this thread tonight.

That looks amazing!

What did you do it with?

ONQ.

Looks like we can stop agonizing about reinstating the Billy statue.

I found this post on the Politics.ie forum

. . . so Billy suffered a meltdown!

@jimg wrote:

As a contrarian by nature, this resurrect King Billy suggestion is just too juicy to let pass.

I think you should let it pass.

Buildings – depending on their former uses – may or may not be symbols of oppression.
They may have housed a use in later years that was supportive of the local community.
Look at all the fine Georgian buildings we practically revere today in Dublin.
And I share your concern about the Roman building in Morocco.

However…

Equestrian statues are a quintessential symbol of victory over a defeated foe/symbol of oppression.

I’m not a rabid Republican, but an equestrian statue of King Billy would not go down well with me.

You could put it up, then I could paint bomb it – if I had some paint bombs. 😀

ONQ.

The horse monument looked good in College Green. Appropriately pompous for the location.

It’s a great pity the Free State didn’t get on the case a bit quicker and make the necessary political changes to the King Willian, Nelson, Gough, et al monuments (as they did to Royal motifs on the Four Courts and GPO) and thus spared them their philistine fate 🙁 They were sitting ducks. O’Connell or one of those geezers must have rode a horse …

@Devin wrote:

O’Connell or one of those geezers must have rode a horse …

O’Connell had four horses.
He famously drove them through any piece of legislation he didn’t like.
Its no wonder he got his way in the end.:)

Billy died as a result of a fall from his horse

. . . . if that makes anyone more comfortable with it

@Devin wrote:

It’s a great pity the Free State didn’t get on the case a bit quicker and make the necessary political changes to the King Willian, Nelson, Gough, et al monuments (as they did to Royal motifs on the Four Courts and GPO) and thus spared them their philistine fate

You should have been a revisionist historian!!!

Interesting concept; you could build a faceless horseman and simply add a new face each time a new hero came along or the old one became a little stale. More applicable to dictatorships; imagine that statue of Sadaam which was pulled down by the tank; they could have taken off the face and simply waited for a new hero or dictator whichever the earlier!!

@gunter wrote:

Billy died as a result of a fall from his horse

. . . .

Really? Then as a gesture to the King Willie brigade, I propose re-instating the horse.

@Tayto wrote:

Really? Then as a gesture to the King Willie brigade, I propose re-instating the horse.

Why not a memorial of Shergar it could double up as a memorial to the human disapeared?

@PVC King wrote:

Why not a memorial of Shergar it could double up as a memorial to the human disapeared?

How about Marengo ?
Napolean’s horse. Born and bred in Ireland and purchased
at the Ballinasloe Horse Fair. A belated nod of appreciation
to our French cousins for their efforts in trying to dismount
King Billy themselves 320 years ago.;)

You want to up-grade College Green with a nonument to the unknown traveller?

. . . well I suppose it would be reaching out to a minority :rolleyes:

Venturing into the realms of horseshit altogether now.
How bout this fella ? (The one on the left).
Apologies. 😮

Lets get back to discussing tunnels under College Green and cobblestones etc..:)

Not finished yet…recent proposal received by Dublin City Council……..

http://www.pbase.com/geej/image/84507997

This is derivitive tat – typical forelock touching by the grateful tenantry.

We need to move beyond this pathetic servility – Ireland has now taken her place among the Nations -it’s time to leave Billy (and Gough and his colonial cronies) in the graveyard where they belong.

College Green is too important for this sort of rubbish. We need something that speaks of the values of our modern republic, while connecting it to key elements of our Irish (not Anglo-Irish) culture.

Money for public art is tight at the moment, and we will always have naysayers, but we could start with the attached artwork – facing the Bank of Ireland (albeit it may have some Anglo Irish connotations).

In time it could be made more permanent (or at least gilded).

Being this Handsome does have its drawbacks…

http://www.flickr.com/photos/farmergiles01/3451316642/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lesec/521347747/sizes/o/

The fact that the statue has been melted down renders the Billy discussion pointless as far as I’m concerned. Sad really – I think I would have enjoyed a protracted argument with onq and publicrealm on this one as I find their arguments to be unconvincing. Onq’s claim that it is the equestrian nature of the statue which renders it particularly offensive rings hollow; I suspect onq would still have a problem with a statue of Billy in a standing pose in College Green. Publicrealm’s blind spot is less subtle – the immediate response being an ad-hominem attack branding those with opposing views as suffering from “pathetic servility”. Nothing could be further from the truth in my case – there are many times in my life where a little servility would have served me well but I’ve always reacted badly to individual authority or the authority of majority opinion. Besides that, I’d fancy my chances against most in a dick-waving contest on family (old) republican credentials. Anyway, that’s it for me on this one; back to pedestrianising College Green.

Sorry jimg, I dont think we can getback to pedestrianising College Green. There have been 46 posts on the subject of you know what (I dont feel comfortable saying it myself anymore) and they have turned what was an interesting thread into more horse sh*t then you know whos horse produced while he was alive.

At least if the proposed Luas does pass through a pedestrianised College Green,
we would have the modern day street version of the iron horse passing through every few minutes !

Any chance the Luas line passing through College Green won’t be overhead powered? >_> Would pretty much be one step forward and two steps back in terms of the view of Trinity from Dame St..

http://www.pivotdublin.com/index.php/agenda/event/design_competitions_delivering_excellence_in_public_realm?utm_source=Newsletter+recipients&utm_campaign=b5d273306e-April_Newsletter4_5_2011&utm_medium=email

pretty steep…

@Yixian wrote:

Any chance the Luas line passing through College Green won’t be overhead powered? >_> Would pretty much be one step forward and two steps back in terms of the view of Trinity from Dame St..

Yeah, it would reduce the visual clutter to the place if a third rail was used. People always go on about Bordeaux as an example of high-tech third rail technology but San Francisco’s famous trams also use third rail on its low tech carriages. Perhaps we should send the RPA there to see how they do it. That said, the priority should be to get some form of tram line through that area. Luas BXD is critical to realising the full potential of Luas and make it an option for far more people.

yes we can?

obamasize…

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0516/1224297037787.html?via=rel

Yeah, it would reduce the visual clutter to the place if a third rail was used. People always go on about Bordeaux as an example of high-tech third rail technology but San Francisco’s famous trams also use third rail on its low tech carriages. Perhaps we should send the RPA there to see how they do it. That said, the priority should be to get some form of tram line through that area. Luas BXD is critical to realising the full potential of Luas and make it an option for far more people.

Nice is a good example of both the negative impact cable networks can have on a streetscape and what can be done about it where required.

Cable infrastructure terminating as the tram line enters Place Massena.

What is essentially a wider version of the Luas, passes through Place Massena.

However, I absolutely disagree that Luas should pass through College Green – the whole point of any future pedestrianisation is that College Green would be elevated from the mere conduit it is today to become a key destination within the city, a relaxed pedestrian friendly environment. Despite the scale of Place Massena and the measures taken to minimize the impact of the tram line as it passes through, the space is in my view compromised nonetheless – its central space is not only dead, but dangerous – resulting in pedestrian activity drifting to the fringes. Given the comparatively tight confines of College Green, 40m long trams passing through every 5 minutes with or without their associated cable network will severely detract from the kind of public space we all know College Green can be.

it is the truth however hard it may be to swallow…

@Peter Fitz wrote:

However, I absolutely disagree that Luas should pass through College Green – the whole point of any future pedestrianisation is that College Green would be elevated from the mere conduit it is today to become a key destination within the city, a relaxed pedestrian friendly environment. Despite the scale of Place Massena and the measures taken to minimize the impact of the tram line as it passes through, the space is in my view compromised nonetheless – its central space is not only dead, but dangerous – resulting in pedestrian activity drifting to the fringes. Given the comparatively tight confines of College Green, 40m long trams passing through every 5 minutes with or without their associated cable network will severely detract from the kind of public space we all know College Green can be.

That’s not exactly accurate. As you say yourself that tram line runs straight through that public square. That obviously would have an impact on the ability of the square to act as a meeting place and centre of activity. However Luas BXD is not going to go through the centre of College Green, it will only be at its fringes, right up alongside the path around the West Front of Trinity College. There would still be ample space in the rest of College Green (and Foster Square) to create a public space while facilitating a Luas line through it.

If college green was a pivot point then no trams would cross it.

Why? because it would be a place to meet and switch modes.

The argument of a single luas line only has more weight if you remove the railings ect.

back to the future…

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0520/breaking16.html

pivoting without a degree of certainty?

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/bydesign/stories/2011/3209507.htm

However Luas BXD is not going to go through the centre of College Green, it will only be at its fringes, right up alongside the path around the West Front of Trinity College.

What you refer to as the fringes, I consider to be the core. Trinity’s relationship with College Green is not exactly helped by it’s railings, add to that a tram line, and the result is to introduce a further barrier of sorts between its fine western facade and the city itself. For me, the way both Trinity & the Bank of Ireland interface with the space is key.

On a side note, given that the council have seen fit to remove their own clutter for Obama, any chance those damn London Planes could be, ahem, temporarily removed too !?

@Peter Fitz wrote:

However Luas BXD is not going to go through the centre of College Green, it will only be at its fringes, right up alongside the path around the West Front of Trinity College.

What you refer to as the fringes, I consider to be the core. Trinity’s relationship with College Green is not exactly helped by it’s railings, add to that a tram line, and the result is to introduce a further barrier of sorts between its fine western facade and the city itself. For me, the way both Trinity & the Bank of Ireland interface with the space is key.

On a side note, given that the council have seen fit to remove their own clutter for Obama, any chance those damn London Planes could be, ahem, temporarily removed too !?

Fair enough, but there is still ample space in College Green besides the area used for the tram line that could be made into a great public square. I do agree that it would be wonderful to integrate the grassy area surrounding the West Gate of Trinity College but it will probably have to be limited by the necessity of putting the Luas line through there. We could redirect the Luas line around Trinity via Nassau St, Westland Row, Pearse and D’Olier St.. This would have the advantage of linking with Pearse Station. However the problem in Ireland is that people talk endlessly about alternatives and plans and take a long time to actually do something. Re-directing the Luas line for a pedestrianisation project would be yet another delay in a litany of delays to essential pieces of infrastructure. Luas BXD has its faults but it”s the best bet we have to connect the two Luas lines, start a third line (D) and maximise the potential of our light rail system.

1.1. As outlined above, DCC and the RPA have adopted an agreed position in relation to the 107 of the draft conditions suggested by Dublin City Council in its submission dated 17th August 2010. Dublin City Council has thoroughly examined the EIS and attached documents. Dublin City Council is not recommending the attachment of any conditions to any Order issued by the Board pursuant to this process. Dublin City Council expects the RPA to honour and meet its commitments in the Agreed Position document of 18th May 2011.

where is this agreement?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0521/1224297466761.html

The apparent reality is that this project was conceived at a time when there was no vision for College Green and its future role in the city. The RPA stepped into this vacuum before anybody else in authority made up their mind or realised what was happening, hence the present mess.

Whatever of the wirescape and the intrusion into the public realm of College Green – both of which I agree are central issues, having harped on about them for years here – the hostile impact of Luas on the leisure atmosphere of College Green has not been adequately assessed, and most certainly is not addressed in the EIS.

Just imagine at peak times, trams will be passing through at five minute intervals – indeed probably three minutes at times – BOTH ways. Essentially there will be a tram passing here every 120 seconds or so. Let us be clear about Luas and its impact on the city core. Luas is not a charming Hornby tram happily winding is way through narrow continental streets – it is a high capacity, and often high speed, railway that operates virtually on a segregated embankment basis. This has the potential to be incredbly damaging to the appeal of College Green as a premier civic space.

As James Nix has recently highlighted, studies have already been carried out in European cities about the deadening impact of light rail on urban life when deployed in certain ways. So this is not exclusively an Irish phenomenon, yet we refuse to talk about it or acknowledge the kiss of death that Luas has given to every inner urban street it touches. If we are to save College Green and the many primary associated streets that BXD passes through, we have to acknowledge what has happened to date in Dublin with Luas, and propose meaningful solutions for the future deployment of the network.

In the meantime, College Green is getting the Obama treatment.

The stage overlaps the railings of the Bank of Ireland, as per Clinton’s visit.

Dignitary seating.

A giant construction site in the centre. All signage and the silly repro lamp standard have been removed from the median. Oh, and the taxis – which we now know can only be removed by US Presidential decree.

Broadcast and photography scaffold on the other side.

Foster Place appears to be the communications hub.

Dame Street is entirely closed down to South Great George’s Street. Great to wander carefree down the centre of the road.

Giant daylight lamps have been erected on cranes to better illuminate the event, which is expected to take place around 5-6pm. In this respect I do hope the stage will be presentable as an architectural construct, rather than a typical utilitarian performance stage that depends on lighting for effect. Its fabulous surroundings are fully presentable in daylight hours – so too should the stage.

The proceedings being stoically supervised.

Really and truly though, the trees are beyond embarrassing at this stage. If ever there was a case of a city authority shooting itself in the foot by not taking action, this is it. Spectacular wide shots of College Green as the centrepeice of a sophisticated European capital for an international audience are unattainable thanks to the short-sightedness regarding this preposterous planting. The tourism benefit to Dublin from this event is almost certainly substantially negated by this ridiculous state of affairs.

It’s beyond embarrassing.

The perspex screens being carefully erected this afternoon.

The blind opes of the back wall of the colonnade are being attractively illuminated.

It appears President Obama will arrive via the quays and Westmoreland Street, his car pulling in underneath a full canopy erected beneath the House of Lords portico.

What a stunning processional scene he will be presented with upon entering, passing through Gandon’s magical stone entrance hall, up the steps into the theatrical top-lit rotunda beyond, and through the muscular Pearcian corridors to the Cash Office, Lords chamber and private rooms.A fabulous first impression of Dublin city centre.

Part of Trinity’s lawn appears to have been comandeered for a media tent.

While the other side is hosting more broadcast vantage points it seems.

Lower Grafton Street is like a ghost town, but does also look the tidest it’s been in half a century too.

In contrast to the shameful attitude of commercial and civic interests to the UK state visit, where only Brown Thomas saw fit to fly a Union Jack and where the quays were lined with commercial flags, now the city streets are filling up with stars and stripes and the quays are flying high with tricolours. In spite of the financial and arguably cultural meltdown of the past decade, we can see where allegiances still lie…

Well the Americans have pedestrianised the area for us.. does anyone else think the removal of traffic light was a tad over the top?

Thanks for the photos!
The obama treatment?
No doubt we will get some monumental photos shortly…

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0523/1224297547770.html

http://www.celtcia.com/obama/obama%20college%20green%20dublin%20ireland.jpg

@GrahamH wrote:

It’s beyond embarrassing.

Indeed it is, all the more frustrating that it could be sorted out in a matter of minutes. Who in DCC has direct authority over this area?

I would suggest a quick email from interested parties to the City Architect suggesting that now all the clutter is down it stays down. The trees are much more problematic and they cant just be chopped. I imagine DCC would baulk at the public reaction. The trees can only come down in the context of a design for the space…and unfortunately that wont happen with the proposed RPA works for Luas BXD (incidentally look closely at the plans – Luas F to Lucan is likely to result in a triangular shunting arrangement slap bang in the centre of College Green so any suggested minimal inpact is likely to be quickly dispelled if both plans go ahead. You can way goodbye to College Green as a civic space).

What can be acted upon is the unnecessary clutter and perhaps getting some new smarter street lighting installed such as the columns found at the GPO. But if you never ask…you never get. Guaranteed no one in the Civic Offices is thinking about this…..

cityarchitects@dublincity.ie

or maybe Ali Grehan’s personal email….or is that cheeky?

Fully agreed. The Parks Department still have control over the planting Peter, but ultimately it’s a planning and managerial decision about removing them…

Current scenes at Christchurch Place. Crowds are slowing winding their way through myriad cattle herding barriers on Lord Edward Street, while those accessing from Werburgh Street are being allowed intermitant access in large groups via Castle Street.

Great atmosphere, and thankfully the weather has improved.

@StephenC wrote:

The trees are much more problematic and they cant just be chopped. I imagine DCC would baulk at the public reaction. The trees can only come down in the context of a design for the space…and unfortunately that wont happen with the proposed RPA works for Luas BXD (incidentally look closely at the plans – Luas F to Lucan is likely to result in a triangular shunting arrangement slap bang in the centre of College Green so any suggested minimal inpact is likely to be quickly dispelled if both plans go ahead. You can way goodbye to College Green as a civic space).

What can be acted upon is the unnecessary clutter and perhaps getting some new smarter street lighting installed such as the columns found at the GPO. But if you never ask…you never get. Guaranteed no one in the Civic Offices is thinking about this…..

Sadly true Stephen, I disagree on the trees however – I doubt they feature much in the public consciousness given their random positioning, relative youth and poor condition. The public reaction to the removal of the O’Connell Street planes, arguably the most prominent urban trees anywhere in Dublin was relatively muted. Fully agreed that in an ideal world their removal should happen as part of a coherent redesign of the entire space, but that is unfortunately years away with seemingly no realisation or determination in DCC to treat the place as anything other than a home for every type of galvanised pole known to man.

So in the short term; remove the trees, repave the islands, reclaim the vistas.

looks like college green is stuck!

I see Sierra and Co back in there quick as a flash. Signage going back up this morning.

Wow that was fast hope people got some photos!
It just shows you speed bumps can stop anyone… (except a monster truck)
Obama did mention green things… and Kenny’s speech was powerful.
It would have been the perfect speech opportunity to reclaim the bank…
Which bank?

Thanks for the pics, Graham. What building did you get access to to obtain such lovely shots?

For all reading this, someone has uploaded some parts of the film “Irish Destiney” from 1926. You must check out the old shots of Dublin and College Green. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_PHkfQVvvU

And some old pics of Irish emigrants here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5MCRFFEVXU

wires…

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0523/breaking31.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0524/1224297639067.html

the future of Ireland…
count the bicycle lanes…

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

and check out the new pavement lines…in green
and note the connection for a future Line F…bye bye Mr Grattan and his lamps
and note only minimal intervention with all those trees we so love
and check out the “cool” delineating with brass strip of the disused toilets beside Mr Moore (who thought of that one!)
and finally, mots of you are design professionals….just imagine the awful awful mess that will ensue here if all that the RPA want comes to pass

The oral hearing continues….

RPA = Ruin Prevailing Architecture

Have they given any credible explanation for non-inclusion of a third rail as per Bordeaux? With a €3bn white elephant in the soon to be completely binned Metro North they can’t exactly raise cost as an issue…….

I think the issue they have is white stuff snow.
Heated rails?
I wonder what ice does…

Are you trying to suggest that Luas with overhead wires worked during recent white outs? How many service interuptions, suspensions etc were there?

In contrast TfL managed to operate virtually the entire tube network the majority of which is above ground and all on a third rail system on the ground….

The agency has submitted photographs of similar lines in France, which utilise underground power supplies, where snow falls have caused the network to close.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0523/breaking31.html

Anyway if they make metro north third rail two they might be able to share the stock…

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1127/breaking1.html

All Luas services have been suspended until 5.30am because the level of snow on sections of the track is causing faults in some trams. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1202/breaking5.html

This is a complete red herring and more evidence of the RPA selecting the easy engineering solution and ignoring all other concerns; the senior management at this agency need to go as this is the last straw of mendacity in another attmept to spin themselves away from yet another unacceptable decision.

I am amazed they just didn’t say their reasons were that they considered it but that supplier of the product deemed it too ‘commercially sensitive to release’

Bit of dodgy Photoshop I did. You get the gist.

it’s all part of the plan!
So it’s pivot or nothing?

@Morlan wrote:

Bit of dodgy Photoshop I did. You get the gist.

An even cruder attempt to give it the gunter treatment:

What are all those dot things getting in the way of the buses?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2011/0709/1224300392083.html

???

I think that image looks great; I don’t think it is fully acheivable as this will need to be a Luas route but the space it would create would create a really really great space. On the subject of number 2 I am at a loss as to why the Bank needs to change use to a museum. To put this area into context the building with Starbucks was Dolmen Securities, BoI had their HQ until the 1970’s , AIB’s constituent banks had major offices there, the Stock Exchange is around the corner, the Central Bank was down the Street. This was Dublin’s commercial core as distinct from retail core. Looking at Bank in London no one ever suggests that the Bank of England should up sticks to turn the Old Lady into a museum.

I fear a real danger of getting fixated on a project that is not deliverable and missing the real prize which is the urban space in the image; to give Dublin an urban space of this scale and quality would be the real winner.

Imagine diverting all Westmoreland Street trraffic originating in Pearse Street up D’olier Street and terminating all traffic from Dame Street at Trinity Street which would be a trickle if there was no through route to OCS. This would give a huge virtually pedestrianised corridor from George’s Street to O’Connell Street save as to Luas. That is the real prize, the public have access to number 2 Monday through Friday which should be extended to Saturdays at this branch. Why kill a real prize with an unfundable pipe dream?

I see the Irish times has 2 articles outlining the backing to pedestrianise college green & plans to become a GREAT SQUARE :

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2011/0709/1224300374128.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0709/breaking7.html?via=mr

Has anyone costed what it would take to create a World class museum at this location?

Being purely cynical, you remodel a traffic free College Green, pack it full of cafes and use it soften up tourists going between the north and south retail cores to spend more money on their weekend breaks; on important civic occiasions you have one of the best public spaces in Europe.

Why gunther that by linking it to an unfundable museum project when all it takes is to strong arm the BoI to give better public access as we move closer to a more paperless financial system and the security risks that paper money creates diminish.

Temple Bar cultural quarter of Museums.
Hueston Gate cultural quarter of Museums
Smithfield cultural quarter of Museums
DDDA cultural quarter of Museums

Just pedestrianise College Green and actually do it…….

The traffic arguements for college green are flawed…
If there are no kerbs and just bollards ect the designs and traffic flows can be changed when required.
It can go from being completely closed of to open to limited traffic including cars.

I think the mueseum or what ever you want to call it is a little bit of a distration.
You can look to the past but the future might be a little more important.
There is no issue with the bank maintaining a very small presence providing rent ect.

The danger with the the Bank of Ireland is that you remove a functioning historic buiding and replace it with a museum/tourist site that requires money to keep it running.. All the best ideas in the world cannot predict the future, and it could easily turn into a segregated museum/coffee shop/tourist office/hotel, that rather than being the centerpeice of the whole gig, turns out to be a multi-business interest.. I’m slightly against the idea, unless the National Museum moves in, and even then, only if the ‘plaza’ is in fact that, and not a semi-paved ared with Luas running through it…

College green can only handle half a luas line with no wires…
Even then it’s completly pushing it…

How about we use the Old Parliament Building as a venue for show trials of the bankers, developers and politicians who have us in the mess we’re now in?

@Cathal Dunne wrote:

How about we use the Old Parliament Building as a venue for show trials of the bankers, developers and politicians who have us in the mess we’re now in?

What a splendid idea. :thumbup:

“How about we use the Old Parliament Building as a venue for show trials of the bankers, developers and politicians who have us in the mess we’re now in?”

I think your forgeting they all have accounts with banks which allows leverage and credit default swaps…
Bankers,politians,developers ect might be more transparent if they had a special bank and they could not hold any assets/liabilitys outside it.
Of course any one in the public has access to records and you can claim the accounts if you find errors.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2011/0712/1224300558272.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0715/1224300761776.html

That article argues against something which not a single person has ever suggested – that this project would somehow rescue Ireland. Improving College Green and doing something better with the Bank of Ireland are actually about improving the quality of life in Dublin and creating a capital city we can be proud of – in both good and bad times. You can travel to places all over Europe which are a lot poorer than Ireland and see a higher quality of life in cities due to the presence of livable public spaces. And even if you didn’t attach importance to that, it’s about time we had a capital city that had the ceremonial grandeur of most capital cities, that represents the solidity of our nation even in troubled times.

I agree that an enhanced environment would increase the quality of life of residents of and visitors to the city; the journey from Grafton Street to O’Connell Street could not be any less pleasant. The problem is simple, a misconception that it is ok to turn the centre of the City into an unregulated bus station and arterial traffic route for people going from suburb to suburb.

What I do not get is why the Bank of Ireland needs to become a museum

National Museum of Ireland has two great museums at Kildare Street and Collins Barricks which are free and not critisicised.

National Gallery of Ireland / NCAD which have high level art to the requisite standard; if there is a gap for more culture it is at a much lower level in terms of providing exhibition space for emerging art.

National Parliment – didn’t Piggygate not symbolise what is really important in Irish politics – distractions from dealing with what is actually important…..

Close the linear bus station…… Let the bank repay the billions that are owed, they won’t be able to that without premises…..

In terms of culture it could be turned into a new home for the Abbey. The old parliamentary chambers could be remodelled as theatres.

Another idea would be as a new home for Dublin City Council. Again, the parliamentary chambers could be occupied by our elected representatives. A directly elected Mayor could have their offices here too. Given that there are a number of major MNCs looking for large, high-profile offices in the city, the current Civic Offices could be sold to them.

There is one decent room in 2 College Green the great banking hall and former legislature; it is too small to accomodate an opera in any event the NCH or Liebskind theatres are both far superior.

For good or bad Bank of Ireland have made this home; carried out a number of pre 1963 modifications which work for them but are not text book; this is a building of European importance and is the last building anyone with half an once of conservation respect wants to see compromised by inserting a new use into. If this were off Place Vendome then perhaps a private hotel might work; At this location no other bid rent would come within the distance of Listowel to the Leprechaun museum of creating the budget to interfere with a use that has earned its keep over roughly 200 years. Where would you put the Bank of Ireland’s South inner city main branch if they are deprived of this one for a whimsical vanity project; they sold their old one across the road 7-8 years ago and don’t have another major branch close to this in Dublin 2.

On the Civic offices they are a materpiece of segregated use civic architecture; STW really rescued a gunthered execution of a goof Stephenson concept built on the wrong site; no private corporation wants this type of architecture; Tara Street off the plan with the ability to heavily influence final detailing is what a large corporate wants.

@Cathal Dunne wrote:

In terms of culture it could be turned into a new home for the Abbey. The old parliamentary chambers could be remodelled as theatres.

Another idea would be as a new home for Dublin City Council. Again, the parliamentary chambers could be occupied by our elected representatives. A directly elected Mayor could have their offices here too. Given that there are a number of major MNCs looking for large, high-profile offices in the city, the current Civic Offices could be sold to them.

I seriously doubt that BoI would be suitable as a theatre without substantial changes. For one, a two story fly box would need to built on top of one of the chambers!

Secondly, I doubt that there’s enough space there to hold all the DCC staff. Perhaps if combined with the office building beside it on Westmoreland St but id imagine that would need significant renovation
There would also be the loss of public space used for talks and displays and the loss of the amphitheatre and outdoor areas used for festivals.

@PVC King wrote:

There is one decent room in 2 College Green the great banking hall and former legislature; it is too small to accomodate an opera in any event the NCH or Liebskind theatres are both far superior.

Righteo, that’s that ruled out then.

For good or bad Bank of Ireland have made this home; carried out a number of pre 1963 modifications which work for them but are not text book; this is a building of European importance and is the last building anyone with half an once of conservation respect wants to see compromised by inserting a new use into. If this were off Place Vendome then perhaps a private hotel might work; At this location no other bid rent would come within the distance of Listowel to the Leprechaun museum of creating the budget to interfere with a use that has earned its keep over roughly 200 years. Where would you put the Bank of Ireland’s South inner city main branch if they are deprived of this one for a whimsical vanity project; they sold their old one across the road 7-8 years ago and don’t have another major branch close to this in Dublin 2.

Tough. They and the rest of their ilk have bankrupted the country and giving up this building is a good way for them to express gratitude to the people of Ireland for all the billions they injected into the bank to keep it operational. Some public function for the Old Parliament Building is likely to be the only return we see from the rescue of the banks.

@Cathal Dunne wrote:

Righteo, that’s that ruled out then.

Not really metro north could have the college green stop or provide a celluar arch that would suit a place of entertainment.

So say BOI stay in some form what should the rent be?

1,000,000 a month or is that to cheap?

If for BXD they did not build the additional bridge over the liffey the money could help the redesigning college green…

While we are at it…

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0716/1224300819396.html

@Cathal Dunne wrote:

Tough. They and the rest of their ilk have bankrupted the country and giving up this building is a good way for them to express gratitude to the people of Ireland for all the billions they injected into the bank to keep it operational. Some public function for the Old Parliament Building is likely to be the only return we see from the rescue of the banks.

I am looking at the Superquinn collapse 24 supermarkets, €400m in debt, I think all bankers involved in that deal should not still be in employment and should be banned from ever working in a financially regulated environment again. However there is a real danger at this point of the cycle of ‘going after the banks’ rather than the specific bankers who made the banks the zombie banks that they are; it is not the retail bank network that took the banks down it is the top 50 NAMA debtors of which at least 30 of whom the president of the SCS had never heard of before the list was published; does that not strike you as strange; leading valuer has never heard of 60% of top debtors? 24 supermarkets and 3 banks syndicate a loan of €400m to a business with no other income stream to cover the debt; as the FT said last weekend; Crazy lending…… Crazy taxpayer to keep any of the people responsible employed in a loss making bank.

2 College Green is a building that houses a bank branch a coincidence but no more than that.

@PVC King wrote:

I am looking at the Superquinn collapse 24 supermarkets, €400m in debt, I think all bankers involved in that deal should not still be in employment and should be banned from ever working in a financially regulated environment again. However there is a real danger at this point of the cycle of ‘going after the banks’ rather than the specific bankers who made the banks the zombie banks that they are; it is not the retail bank network that took the banks down it is the top 50 NAMA debtors of which at least 30 of whom the president of the SCS had never heard of before the list was published; does that not strike you as strange; leading valuer has never heard of 60% of top debtors? 24 supermarkets and 3 banks syndicate a loan of €400m to a business with no other income stream to cover the debt; as the FT said last weekend; Crazy lending…… Crazy taxpayer to keep any of the people responsible employed in a loss making bank.

Who says we have to choose? Those people should be pursued and made account for their folly. At the same time the Old Parliament Building can return to public use as a gesture of atonement by Bank of Ireland. The discussion should now be what public use that should be.

Serving the interest of taxpayers in their capacity as shareholders of Bank of Ireland…

Examining who made the crisis happen and jailing them makes far more sense than venting anger on a building that not only would have to be replaced at full market costs of acquisition and fit out not to mention the significant 8 figure sum it would cost get any other use right in this building. Think Millenium Dome London if you want to see a great national project go from ‘World Class Science Museum’ to concert venue to great cultural icons such as Madness….

The key to College Green is pedestrianising it, encouraging cafe culture, taking more business rates and providing more enjoyment to the citizens of and visitors to the City. It is vital that An Bord make a third rail system a condition of any planning grant for the Luas link up / Luas to Ballymun

temporal interventions running rings… let the…

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Trafalgar Square is not a particularly pleasant public space due to its configuration and heavy traffic load on two of its sides. College Green has the capacity to be far more like Las Ramblas in Barcelona http://www.barcelona-tourist-guide.com/en/ramblas/barcelona-las-ramblas.html in that it could be calmer and yet less contrived; don’t get me wrong London is a far better City than Barcelona any day but Trafalgar Square is a location that few Londoners use other than those taking trains from Charing Cross. Think organic atmosphere that morphs in an unplanned way post pedestrianisation

College green can be a much more intimate space that you stumble apon…

I had just been considering the plight of poor College Green, 5 months after it was cleared for the Obamathon, when lo and behold I noticed a DCC Lights work crew (on Sunday) out and about this morning installing Scotch lamp standards in a typically haphazard manner around the square. So far there is one on the median (not centred like the one removed for Obama, but to the side – probably requiring the removal of another granite flagstone) and one at the corner of Foster Place.

Im also wondering what happened to Abercrombie & Fitch

There was an article in property week last week confirming they will open but didn’t confirm a date; they know it will do very well based on their enormous concession sales in department stores. As it is a pure destination they could open on Killarney Street and people would travel, it will I suspect act as the catalyst to transform, the non-pedestrianised section of Grafton Street.

Interesting report on the whole thing…
It will be curious if something starts to happen with this whole thing maybe Weinstein can make a film one dane and two br…

http://collegegreensharedspace.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/synopsis-thorsten-peters3.pdf