O’ Connell Street, Dublin
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Also as another suggestion, would it be possible to put a railing at the ends of Talbot Street and Henry Street and force pedestrians up to a new crossing somewhere around the amusement arcade?
Graham, do you not think it is a bit of an over reaction to raise the plaza & replace with a traditional tar macadam roadway ? don’t necessarily agree that continuing the roadway line through the plaza with tar macadam would be more pleasing to the eye …
… or do you think the whole concept of the plaza in front of the GPO was ill-conceived in the first place, & disrupts the lines of the street as a whole ?
Just interested as the plaza was an integral part of the IAP from the outset, the overall effect would be gone if the roadway line continued through the space.
Thanks, P.
@Graham Hickey wrote:
I
As Greg says, there’s a perfectly simply solution – put a kerb back in and lay black tarmac as present on the rest of the street – it not only makes the arrangement so much safer, it is more pleasing to the eye.
You have a wide stretch of pedestrians both walking towards each other on the median but they are forced to funnel themselves to either side of the Spire. As a result they often cannot see where they are going, and often continue on walking past the kerbline on the other side – the Spire as an obstacle and all the bollards help generate this confusion.
Perhaps some of the brown super-sticky tarmac that’s in use in some parts of the city would be more appropriate here? I actually think it looks quite well and it’s tone would that little bit more subtle too…
The pedestrian crossing is indeed chaos, but are there other solutions? Railings at the bottoms of Henry St and Nth Earl St would surely only funnel the crowds into each other at each corner and would further congest the pavements..
I can immediately think of why an underpass wouldn’t work, particularly for people crossing specifically for the Spire but would there be any way of implementing this?
This is a good point about tourists being distracted looking up at the spire.
Graham is so keen on the way things look, that I’m amazed he is suggesting that the plaza would look better with a conventional road driven through it. He may well be right of course.
@kefu wrote:
Also as another suggestion, would it be possible to put a railing at the ends of Talbot Street and Henry Street and force pedestrians up to a new crossing somewhere around the amusement arcade?
Placing pedestrian barriers at roadsides leads to an increase in average traffic speeds, as drivers unconsciously set their speed according to their perceived estimate of the safety of the road. The unintuitive corollary is that removing safety guidelines from roads such as white lines, traffic lights and kerbs may cause drivers to slow down.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4213221.stmI guess that removing the traffic lights from O’Connell Street would not work given the volumes of road and pedestrian traffic that intersect at the spire. This brings us back to reducing traffic volumes on the street. I regularly drive up and down O’Connell Street,. I’m not on the street because I have any business there, I’m just using it as a north-south rat run. You can get around the restrictions on entering the street, if you choose the right backstreets.
Dublin Bus seems to route nearly all their buses up this street, yet when I get off a bus in O’Connell Street, I’m usually on my way West to the Henry Street/Capel Stret area, or else going East to the IFSC. I get taxis from O’Connell Street fairly often but there’s no reason I couldn’t get a taxi from Cathal Brugha Street.
So I’d like to see the street pedestrianised. And a subway station at the GPO.
@Alek Smart wrote:
Now that we know that the point(!!) of the Tower of Light is to draw the viewers gaze skywards perhaps once again im being a phillistine if I suggest that the middle of a very busy pedestrian crossing is not exactly an ideal location for such a gaze inducing device,however artistic it may be.
Blame those crazy bastards back in 1806 for building the Nelson Pillar there.
Sorry but has the health and safety brigade been let run loose in here? Cities have things that catch your eye, sad that the accident was, at the end of the day isn’t the city better to have things of interest in it. All this talk of underpasses etc is a nonsense – we need more pedestrian movement on O’Connell St not less, you may as well suggest a pedestrian bridge while you’re at it, nobody will use that either!!!
Also how often on the continent have you been on a street where you are not 100% sure where the kerb was due to the street being cobbled? Were you killed? Probably not. Did you contact the mayor of Paris’ office when you were distracted by seeing the light on top of the eifel tower? No. All this talk is nonsense and an utter overaction
Why don’t the Gardai enforce the restrictions on cars driving onto O’Connell St from Parnell Sq.
While waiting for the No. 10 in the mornings a lot of cars drive down tha square without any Garda ever being there to sort them out.I also saw a poor old lady almost mowed down on the roadway outside Clery’s. As was mentioned before she wandered off the pedestrian area into the traffic. She got a terrible fright and said that she assumed that she was still on the footpath!!!
It is a problem, though with older people it seems rather than the population at large (not that this makes it any less a problem). Also dare I say it’s a female ‘issue’ too – sorry but women do tend to walk about the place with their heads in the clouds, nattering away or moving from one shop window to the next 🙂
Of all ‘incidents’ I have seen or heard of on O’Connell Street, they’ve all been women…But I fully agree that you do have to have your wits about you in urban spaces, especially in a major civic location like outside the GPO in the heart of a capital city – you expect ‘unorthodox’ paving schemes! The Plaza, whilst somwhat awkward in the context of an avenue-like street, works well overall and the paving on the carriageways and median is beautiful.
Peter and Frank I don’t mean replacing the Plaza paving with tarmac (are you mad? :)) – rather these ridiculous stretches of wishy washy granite slapped down on the carriageway either side of the Plaza:
It is this utterly pointless paving that causes so much confusion at the Spire junction, and likewise to a lesser extent outside Clery’s.
Not only is is unsafe, it dilutes the potential stark contrast between the street’s liner roadways and the civic plaza space as they merge. Hence the Plaza tends to spew out bloatedly beyond its lime-treed boundaries into the rest of the street.Rory makes a good point I think about the Pillar – blame the Trustees for the congestion at the current crossing (still going I think!). It really is something that just has to be put up with, though it could be made safer by laying tarmac instead of that granite to define the pavement and median from the carriageways.
Hmmmm…I smell a Rat here……!!!
Just Looka dah pic…….Not a Bleedin Motor Bike to be seen.! I Mean C`mon Graham Bud…….Although I think that pic may have been taken BEFORE DCC put up it`s NO MOTORBIKE PARKING signs which would explain the lack of the same yokes…..Its only when the signs go up that the Fir agus Mna na hEireann rush to prove their resilience to this Imperialist Regulatory stuff !”!!……………….. 😮Gardai seek assistance over O’Connell St crash
From:ireland.com
Monday, 19th September, 2005Gardaà are appealing for witnesses to an incident on Dublin’s O’Connell Street in which two women were struck by a bus last week.
The incident in which two British tourists were hurt, one seriously, happened at around 4 pm last Thursday.
The women were injured as they crossed at pedestrian traffic lights on the North Earl Street side of the recently constructed plaza at the Spire.
Dublin City Council launched an inquiry into the “boulevard” design of the intersection after witnesses suggested the women may have failed to determine the difference between road and footpath because the surfaces are made of the same material and are at the same level.
Store Street gardaà are also seeking public assistance in tracing the whereabouts of one of the women’s handbag and a hold-all which were removed from the scene.
A purse containing cash and bank cards, keys, a mobile phone and a passport were in the handbag.
EndsFrank Taylor wrote:that removing safety guidelines from roads such as white lines, traffic lights and kerbs may cause drivers to slow down.Quote:Doubtless this is also the real, and hidden reason for the near complete absence of useful roadsigns in much of Ireland.
@dc3 wrote:
@Frank Taylor wrote:
that removing safety guidelines from roads such as white lines, traffic lights and kerbs may cause drivers to slow down.
Doubtless this is also the real, and hidden reason for the near complete absence of useful roadsigns in much of Ireland.
In actual fact, we Irish have set new standards of road safety. If the absence of road signs slows drivers down, the use of obviously misleading and dangerous road signs makes us drive at a snails pace. This is the reason that the Government in all of its red-neck intelligence puts a 100km/hr sign immediately after a serious of SLOW-SLOWER-GET OUT AND CRAWL YOU LAZY BASTARD signs on an extremely dangerous stretch of the Sligo0-EnnisKILLen road. Oh, I forgot, no politician has stepped outside the M50 in the last 13 years, so how would they know about something like that. Indeed, the problem of pedestrain area surface blending in with road traffic surface in O’Connell Street is replicated in a number of areas of the country where cow area surface blends in seemlessly with the road surface area.
With all of this development of O’Connell Street, it would have been a good opportunity to actually initiate the building of a metro line – if the cut and refill technique was used, the resurfacing of the street could have been done in tandem with the construction of a metro station. Would have saved money. Just a casual observation. Anyway, why bother I suppose. ONce Dublin Gas, Eircom, th eESB etc get going the surface will have been carved up a hundred times before I have finished writing this.
Here here, PDLL
They should have at least done some pre-emptive utility works, or even some feasibility studies…..maybe they have. But seriously, do any of us believe that they are that ahead of the game….?
As a Dubliner who no longer lives in Dublin, and who rarely gets into the city, I was pretty surprised and very impressed by the work that has thus far been carried out on the street. Admittedly it looks really, really good. Any changes to it now, to facilitate easy crossing of the street (!?!) would be wrong, wrong, wrong.
Standing in the median of O’Connell Bridge and Looking up the street is such a thrill now. It looks awesome – clean, planned, modern, historic, impressive. I was always in favour of the Spire, but wasn’t sure (before now) if it was in context…it integrates extremely well with the progrssing development. I’m raging I didn’t have my camera…..@electrolyte wrote:
But seriously, do any of us believe that they are that ahead of the game….?
Singularly unlikely. It would have requried a brain. Sometimes when I arrive in Dublin airport I try to imagine what it would be like getting in a lift and going down to a train platform under the airport and then gliding along under the north-side and getting out at the door of the GPO 15 minutes later. What would that feel like! Like most other European capitals I suppose. No worries, Bertie has his state limo so that is all that matters. I better not let cynicism spoil the virtual reality of the Celtic Tiger (me arse).
he he…..I so know that feeling….how cool would it be.
Mind you, plans and designs for the new airport developments are to be released today, so ya never know….there might be some shocking ambitions that could actually see this become a reality by 2009…if RTE news is correct.
Were I a first time visitor to the city, emerging from a subway station onto O’Connell Street for my first ever glimpse of Dublin, I’d be mighty impressed. Not by the fact that I have just taken a metro from the airport to town, coz let’s face it, it seems a given in most other European cities anyway….but how fresh and clean it all looks….its deadly.
Whereas I’d agree with your frustrated sentiments on a broader level PDLL – in the case of O’Connell Street DCC have been very astute and forward-thinking in planning underground service provision during the IAP works.
Indeed this is what is making so much of the project take so long: the roadways are being gouged downwards to a depth of several feet to cater for the renewal of most if not all services. There are still cast-iron water mains down there believe it or not (as with much of the city) all of which, along with telecoms and gas, are being renewed with sturdy plastic equivalents which hopefully will last another 100 years with any luck.Regarding the pedestrian crossing, clearly TV3 News will have a piece on it this evening:
There is quite a lot of interest amongst the public at the crossing now, with people looking along the ‘kerbline’ etc.
This is the view presented to the individual when approaching from North Earl St – yoo can see how there is confusion:
Indeed even as I was standing there for about 30 seconds, no less than two women walked right out onto the roadway without even noticing and then jumped back in again!
The visibility from the other side is a little better given the bollards and the nature of the median, but still isn’t great:
From certain angles the different areas are simply invisible:
The difference with the Plaza is the marked increase in levels which makes the roadway stand out more, whereas at the crossing the pavement just flows right into it.
And just another pic of that pointless granite paving on the roads – sorry but it really bugs me! It’s just thrown down for the sake of it and erodes the otherwise strong lines of the paving scheme on the street – blandly ‘plazafying’ it.
Rip it up and lay down tarmac; the existing border of the pink granite and basalt(?) around the Plaza is more than adequate a ‘buffer’ between the two.
I entirely disagree with this ripping up; I like the way the plaza is laid out as it is refreshingly different and it reacts very well with the other materials used. I would suggest that there have been many more accidents at the College Green junction particularly at the blind spot at the Bank of Ireland and that all of the accidents here are ultimately down to driver/pedestrian/cyclist behaviour. What is required in my opinion is that further traffic reduction is carried out on O’Connell St once the Upper section is completed; in particular proper enforcement at the Parnell St northern access point. Signage should be errected at O’Connell Bridge to advise motorists to turn onto Eden Quay to Access N1 N2 N3 and the Airport. Only one lane of traffic should be encouraged onto O’Connell St and there should not be one bustop South of the GPO.
TP-
You seem to think that “driver/pedestrian/cyclist behaviour” is independent of environmental stimuli? Surely behaviour is a result of cues in the environment? What has been said above is that pedestrians have been misled by a combination of confusing ground treatment and visual distraction (in the form of the Spire)- a theory I would fully endorse.
What is it about College Green / BoI that has caused the accidents, if it’s not “driver/pedestrian/cyclist behaviour” you cite in the case of O’Connell St? I can’t place the blind spot you mention. In fact, can a curved building have one? 😉
I’d think that, if anything, the behaviour:environment ratio would be leaning more towards the behaviour in College Green than in OCS, i.e. it’s less the ‘fault’ of the designed environment.Graham-
Instructive pictures indeed. I’m usually paying too much attention to the traffic and trying to stay on my mount to notice such effects as that perceived from North Earl Street. And what about those discreetly placed service hatches? Such subtlety.
But what are the chances of DCC admitting their error? Or risking further alienating the public with more works?One thing I would just want to say is that I hope any of the images don’t come across as jumping on the reactionary ‘outrage’ bandwagon. Having used the North Earl St junction most mornings since it was laid, it was instantly notable how vague the paving parameters were and potential for danger.
It must be said that when standing on the median side, individuals are much more aware of the roadways by definition of having had to cross a carriageway on one side of the street to get onto the median in the first place; hence these pedestrians are much more cognisant of the traffic lanes. Saying that, there is still room for improvement by redefining the roadway.
For some reason approaching from Henry St seems to be less of a problem than from Nth Earl St as people do tend to stop here – yet to figure out exactly why. It could be the huge volume of people at this GPO corner that makes pedestrians more aware of the crossing.Perhaps the use of the term ‘ripping up’ was unwise earlier – essentially all the job would involve is the lifting of a small amount of granite cobbles and their replacement with simple tarmac, in line with the rest of the roadways.
It seems to me one of the main reasons this granite was laid down was to cover up the fact of just how narrow the median is around the Spire – so small infact that the Spire base fills the entire width of the median, even forcing the bollards beyond where is desirable. Having same granite paving on the roadway conceals just how narrow the space really is…
Not sure what could’ve been done about this though.On the related issue of buses, I have never seen a more ridiculous scene in all my life as I saw at 9.30 this morning on O’Connell St. No less than at least 25 buses were inching along in a slow-moving procession down one side of the street alone! – the eastern southbound carriageway. ONE side of the street! Crossing over from the bridge outside the Irish Nationwide there you could see them stretching far into the distance the whole way along the thoroughfare, all piling up at various traffic lights. It was unreal!
The vast majority of course being Dublin Bus, with about 4-5 private operators, all forming a two-storey broken yellow and blue wall between us and the other side of the street. It really has got beyond a joke.Also had the amusement yesterday of seeing this driver pull out outside Eason’s only to rip his mirror off on the parked bus in front – much to the delight of passers-by 😀
The driver meekly scurried out, picked it up and chucked it back into the bus and continued on 🙂
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