O’ Connell Street, Dublin
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The canal idea certainly seemed inspired all right – was reading about it too, and I think it highlights the much broader context in which this Luas link must be held.
Obviously all options are being considered by the RPA, no doubt with DCC and other bodies’ input and it’s up to their expert opions to decide what to do, but to make a rather obvious point, the idea of extending the Green Line solely to terminate at O’Connell Street in light of the greater transport needs of the city seems rather short-sighted, whatever about the visual impact on the city’s core.Still I do find it quite amusing how pople can be diametrically opposed on aesthetic grounds to exactly the same idea – either being concerned about the wirescape, or wanting sleek trams running through the streets 🙂
First of all, could I suggest that maybe the debate about the Luas link be somehow moved out of the O’Connell Street thread?
Kefu & Graham, it is nonsense to suggest that I am being “incredibly disengenious” to include short journeys in my calculation. I did it for simplicity and in actual fact it understates the advantages of having a linked up system. If you restrict the analysis to longer journeys, the relative advantages of integrating the system actually increases. For example, if you only consider journeys of five stops or greater in length, then there are almost THREE TIMES as many journeys possible on the linked up system.
I can’t believe that people are refusing to accept this? It’s almost an axiom of transport systems that when you increase integration, the utility of the entire system increases. Imagine what trains/the DART would be like in Dublin without the loop-line bridge (ah sure, it’s only a twenty minute walk from Connolly to Pearse!). Imagine the London Underground if they hadn’t developed every opportunity to provide interchanges between lines where they come close to each other.
But short journeys are actively discouraged by Luas themselves due to the high cost of traveling within zone 1 (a very steep 1.30 compared with Dublin Bus at 85c). It only becomes value for money if your coming all the way from the suburbs.
@jimg wrote:
First of all, could I suggest that maybe the debate about the Luas link be somehow moved out of the O’Connell Street thread?
if you only consider journeys of five stops or greater in length, then there are almost THREE TIMES as many journeys possible on the linked up system.
I can’t.
Jim,
Just before we move this discussion off the O’Connell St thread can we first fix up the myth that the O’Connell St routing is the only one on the table. For once the public will have a chance to see six options before the route is chosen.
To my mind this central routing is the wrong choice for a number of reasons not least the points that Graham made in post 1530 and in terms of congestion the pinch point at College Green and its effect on the median as evidenced by weehamster’s map taken from http://www.platform11.org
Sure TP. There are a number of active “fronts” in the discussion, only one of which (the choice of routing) is germane to O’Connell St. The one I seem to be most active in is the question of the utility of integrating the system. Whether the green line is extended via O’Connell St or any other route does not have a huge bearing on my argument in that regard. Obviously if you don’t see any value in joining the two lines, the question of route is almost moot. Also if you see no utility in joining the lines, then any aesthetic cost (or financial cost for that matter) associated with doing so will seem excessive.
Continued on Luas Central Corridor:
https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?p=36550#post36550
Fido is gone
I was wondering what happenend to the proposed bridge from Marlbourgh St. to Hawkin St. I think it was discussed some pages ago but I don’t have the time look through the prevous pages (there are 63 you know ! 😮 ) I have a copy of the annual report of the O’Connell St. IAP 1999-2000, and it says regarding the bridge, “going to tender in the new year”
When the new section of
junkie seatingboardwalk was being built there was a gap left in it at about where the bridge would go for a long time. It may have had nothing to do with it, of course.The new bridge will be most welcome when it is built it will really bring a new dimension to Marlborough St which will hopefully mimic what happened on Lower Liffey St. Retention of the Abbey onto this site is crucial.
“the new bridge will be most welcome when it is built”, Are you just supporting the idea Thomond Park or do you have confirmation that its going ahead? If so, is there a time table? or has a design been choosen yet?
No specific news,
when do people think this will be built?
I see that Eircom have installed WiFi in their payphone at the edge of the new boardwalk on O’ Connell Bridge. I don’t think I would fancy ‘surfing the net’ sitting on the boardwalk at that particular location!
As if there wasn’t enough visual clutter as it is….
Not to mention the riverscape – is a new bridge really needed here?
At the risk of using the term ‘gimmicky’ too many times, one gets the feeling that this proposal is if not that term, then at least another pet-project that will add yet more clutter to the riverscape with the Boardwalk alongside.There is an attractive simple model at work on the Liffey of roughly evenly-spaced bridges spanning its width. To stick yet another metal bridge literally within yards of the landmark O’Connell Bridge seems unnecessary and unfair to the rightful dominance it holds in this area.
If sheer quantity of pedestrian flow is the problem, were the tight corner of O’Connell Bridge and Eden Quay to be addressed then the problem would be solved.
From a regenerative point of view, there is no doubt there’s a certain appeal in having a bridge linking Marlborough St with Hawkins St, but it could be argued that a steamroller is being used here to fold a piece of paper – i.e. the most basic of measures have yet to be taken on Marlborough Street to improve its public domain and building stock, in fact nothing at all has happened.
Building a bridge linking one dead street to another is not going to solve Marlborough’s problems. I think it is being used as another unnecessary ‘iconic’ symbol of regeneration, an ‘innovative’ ‘forward-thinking’ scheme that could have a negative impact on the riverscape and at the same time do little to improve the streets it is directed at.By my measuring, it is exactly 100 metres from the corner of O’Connell Street/Bridge to Marlborough Street, less than the distance walking from the GPO Henry St corner past Penneys and Easons to Abbey Street.
Marlborough Street can be regenerated without a bridge; were we to build a bridge to solve the problems of every dump along the Liffey we’d have no river left. I’d have to see the river properly on location to make any sort of final judgement on it, but it seems ever so faintly ridiculous to build a new bridge for regenerative purposes 100 metres away from one of the widest city bridges in Europe.
The real question for me is not is a bridge required but more is it a a Luas/Bus or pedestrian bridge?
I was on the street today and crossed the road at a new set of traffic lights near the Savoy, it looks like the council are taking more account of the public this time around. That has to be a good thing, how long do people think the works will take?
Graham Hickey wrote:Marlborough Street can be regenerated without a bridge]That is an interesting perspective,
To make a valid comparison to the Millenium Bridge I wonder what the distances were to Grattan bridge and the Ha’Penny bridge as opposed to the 100m you are talking about above.
Eden Quay is not a particularly appealing pedestrian space either and I think that the visual seperation of the Quay from the streetline by buses is not helping this stretch of boardwalk at all.
I am coming to the conclusion that the ‘bridge project’ has been a very convenient excuse for the state that many buildings on Marlborough St have been allowed deteriorate into.
Well here’s a rather sultry view of this stretch at dusk (sorry best I have):
The Ha’penny-Grattan stretch is longer, though admittedly not by very much. I don’t have an OS map with the Millenium Bridge on it so can’t compare!
Just personally I’ve always like the O’Connell-Butt stretch: it feels like a big pool of water trapped between the two bridges, with that nice curve into the distance – wouldn’t like to see it disrupted, especially considering the Boardwalk already makes quite a, eh – ‘statement’….There always seem to be a desire in cities to ‘conquer’ their rivers – within reason I think they ought to be left alone.
The Ha-penny to O’Connell stretch is perhaps the best example of a river ‘preserved’; it has never been tamed and nor should it.
Indeed probably the only reason it hasn’t is that there aren’t any major streets terminating at the river along this stretch…Seeing the location, the Marlborough stretch is probably capable of accommodating a bridge, but I for one wouldn’t like it, and the impact on O’Connell Bridge from the east is difficult to make out.
I’m not so sure that allCities are hell-bent on conquering their rivers, Frankfurt is a great example of how a river should be with a river level linear park on one bank and a wide pathway on the other with the Quay wall acting as the other boundary.
You are correct about the obsession with proposed bridge building that has prolifferated in recent times, some were necessary such as Joyce, Millenium & Calatrava but I can’t see the need for O’Casey and I’m starting to off the idea of Marlborough St unless it were a Luas Bridge and then I would have difficulty with anything more prominent than the Millenium bridge.
The river level park was never going to be possible in Dublin due to the tidal nature of the river and I can accept the concept of the boardwalk as offering some level of interaction with the river that otherwise wouldn’t be possible by reason of natural limitations.
The major problem I have with the Liffey Quays are the stretches without the board-walk, with the South Quays being a glorified bus-stop as far as the civic offices and the North Quays having car-parking on them from Grattan Bridge to O’Donovan Rosssa Bridge at Church St.
I would like to see Devin post the section of Dubinspirations that deals with the Liffey Quays.
On a totally different note the road markings have not been re-instated at College Green after a road resurfacing, I saw a guy on a bike ploughing into a few pedestrians who crossed late after being obstructed by cars who had no indication of where to stop for the lights.
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