O’ Connell Street, Dublin
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I have to agree with Grahams arguments save one, I feel it would that it would be beneficial to connect the two lines but I would add the provisio that the line should be extended beyond the red line and offer at least one new destination. Given the cost of the RPA metro is going to come in at around 4.6bn if it is built to proper international broad gauge metro specification I really can’t see the Department clearing it, nor can I see too many paople ourside Dublin being happy with so much being spent on a single stand alone project.
My own view is that the Luas should follow the route of the existing buses on to College Green and then head for Dame St and cross the river at Grattan Bridge and cross the red Luas line on Capel St. This line should also continue onwards to Ballymun and the airport with a second rail service to the airport and Swords being provided from the Northern line beyond Howth Junction.
At least this way O’Connell St is preserved and tyhe Northside proper can experience the Luas effect without having any negative effects on its principal ACA.
Cullen would want to cop himself on after the number of mistakes he’s made, no more bluster it is past time to start listening to common sense.
Ok looks like I’m on my own here, but that’s never stopped me before. I’ll leave aside feelings about Cullen or the suggestion that there is something nonsensical about the proposal just because he’s involved. Nor do I agree that “None of this, however, will dent support for this project because it’s one of those things politically, which sounds like it makes perfect sense when it makes no sense at all.” is a reasonable summary of the arguments for and against the idea.
Also I don’t think it’s worth wasting effort arguing about the precise technical details of the extension – i.e. whether it goes further north terminating in Parnell Sq. or what routes are implemented on the joined up system – given that the nature of the extension is still largely unknown.
TP makes a reasonable point that there may be alternative routes which would be worthy of consideration.
Besides that, the only argument I can discern from the voices in opposition is that joining the lines has limited utility. I disagree strongly with this. I don’t think it’s at all reasonable to dismiss the utility of the extension because a healthy young(ish) person can walk between the Stephens Green stop and the red line in 15 minutes (a distance of over a kilometer by my reckoning). This seems to form the real basis of Kefu and Grahams opposition to the idea. You must have a very narrow view of what sort of people the city centre should accomodate! Imagine trying to do that distance with children in tow or with three bags of groceries or shopping. Add a bit of Irish weather to the mental picture – a damp rainy day in November or a freezing gale in March. Would you just suggest that an elderly frail person who isn’t the fittest, walk that distance? What about if you’re a tourist and have a load of luggage? I believe there is plenty utility in linking the lines and in fact linking them in fact creates synergy; it will be practical to get from anywhere to anywhere on the two lines even if burdened with children, luggage, heavy shopping, a disability, fraility or just laziness no matter what the weather is like.
The only issue for me is the aesthetic one and for me, in terms of improvement to the environment along the route, the utility delivered, it’s a price worth paying and in fact I believe any negative aesthetic impact can be minimised with a bit of imagination.
jimg wrote:This seems to form the real basis of Kefu and Grahams opposition to the idea. You must have a very narrow view of what sort of people the city centre should accomodate! Imagine trying to do that distance with children in tow or with three bags of groceries or shopping. Add a bit of Irish weather to the mental picture – a damp rainy day in November or a freezing gale in March. Would you just suggest that an elderly frail person who isn’t the fittest, walk that distance? What about if you’re a tourist and have a load of luggage? I believe there is plenty utility in linking the lines and in fact linking them in fact creates synergy]I sympathise with all of what you have written above.
However, I don’t think any of these factors could ever justify spending the E100 million that [even the Green Party Join the Dots campaign admitted this] it would cost.
A dedicated Luas-to-Luas bus service with bus only lanes in both directions would use up the same amount of road space and cost the tiniest tiny fraction of that E100m figure
Elderly, frail persons have free travel in this country and you won’t find too many of them complaining about the Luas lines not joining.
I would also question how many tourists with heavy luggage are actually trying to travel from Ranelagh/Sandyford to Tallaght or Heuston/Connolly. It is not like Luas exists in a vacuum either. There are good bus services in this city that serve many of these routes quite exactly.@jimg wrote:
The only issue for me is the aesthetic one and for me, in terms of improvement to the environment along the route, the utility delivered, it’s a price worth paying and in fact I believe any negative aesthetic impact can be minimised with a bit of imagination.
Jim, I totally agree with your entire post before the above quote and can see the very valid points that you are making and I agree with them but in relation to the above I respectfully request that you read post No. 1530 above and consider the micro-aesthetics very carefully.
It is entirely possible to acheive the exact result that you seek either via a Capel St alignment taking in Dame St or by a Marlborough St alignment taking in Pearse/Hawkins St. I note that no-one proposes running Luas down Grafton or Henry St I would in light of the messy overhead wire situation I would suggest that people would consider the effects on TCD/BOI College Gr and O’Connell St in their considerations.
€100 million?! You’re having a laugh kefu! I thought it was around €50m as was suggested on the Luas Central Corridor thread last year!
As mentioned on that thread, if a bus service running the same route was prosposed costing that sum it’d be laughed out of it.
I take into account what you’re saying jimg, and I too in the past often thought of the convenience of getting from O’Connell St to the Green via tram, thinking the distance rather long. And yes there is simply no doubting the appeal of such a concept and there’s no point in my running down the (limited) element of utility it would bring in order to reinforce an aesthetic arguement. I think both have certain merits.But :). My primary concern is the aesthetic implications – there’s no point in diluting that. For College Green, O’Connell Street, O’Connell Bridge, the House of Lords part of College Street, and lower Grafton Street if Trinity’s wall is removed.
However of equal concern is the fact that a vast, almost incomprehensible amount of money is being proposed to be spent on a service that does nothing other than to make an existing service a teeny bit better, that is all. As kefu says, very few people would have a special need to use this link, and those that do could be accommodated on existing or slightly altered bus services. A good start alone would be just to make free the final stage on Dublin Bus from say Dawson St to Westmoreland St, at a negligible if not zero cost to Dublin Bus.
What I would like to see is the money better invested in a Luas line that earns its way – as suggested linking to the proposed Ballymun line (though there’s also aesthetic implications for the vista of City Hall :)). I don’t know if it is possible to mix both the overhead power system with the (safe asdasd :)) rail powered system as described on the Corridor thread – I’m doubting it somehow…
Or to use an alternative city centre route that links with another area of the Northside, i.e. why does O’Connell Street always have to be turned into the centre of the universe?But even if there was no overhead wires I’d still question the spending of such a vast vast sum on such a small project that does little to nothing to alleviate the transport problems of the capital.
@Graham Hickey wrote:
What I would like to see is the money better invested in a Luas line that earns its way – as suggested linking to the proposed Ballymun line (though there’s also aesthetic implications for the vista of City Hall :)). I don’t know if it is possible to mix both the overhead power system with the (safe asdasd :)) rail powered system as described on the Corridor thread – I’m doubting it somehow…
It would be entirely possible to hang the overhead lines from either/each individual side of the street in specific places therebye protecting Dean & Woodwards AIB, City Hall and eliminating the need for a huge overhang of the Central Bank Plaza.
Given the current thinking on the RPA metro costings at the Dept of Finance I genuinely believe that Luas represents Ballymuns only chance of a high capacity public transport system. I would further add that the path to Ballymun does not have the population density either current or potential to support anything above a light rail route.
Luas appears to be the perfect solution and a Dame St/Capel St routing appears to be the line of least resistance and would accelerate the invest westward where it is probably most needed as opposed to an eastern alignment which is already very close to the Dart line.
Well said jimg.
Delighted to see the ghastly error of not linking the Luas lines is finally going to be righted.
In good European cities trams go through the heart, through civic spaces. I am baffled that people are worried about visual effects.
Would the Luas be able to negociate Suffolk St and Andrew St?
Here’s an image of O’Connell Bridge’s poles and wirescape from 1922 – difficult to make out much though:
Also just Burger King’s windows mentioned earlier; they’ve been PVCed of aluminiumed 🙂 for quite a few years now:
I believe it would, as a bus can get into the right lane even with a car in the left lane, coming out of Church Lane if the tracks were placed on the northern side of College Green it would supply a very wide turning circle. It would also have the effect of making College Green as far as City Hall effectively public transport only due to a dramatic reduction in road space. That part of Cullen’s speech I have great respect for.
Re Burger King’s Freshely baked baguettes, who did I meet in Wexford St on Monday only Fido he was wrapped around the Cornerstone bar on a grandscale, these wraps have genuinely gone beyond a joke someone should contact enforcement.
Devin if it were proposed to suspend telephone wires in the same fashion through the city centre, there’s be absolute uproar on the impact on the city’s architecture and streetscapes, not least on the part of the heritage/conservation lobby – but because this is being seen as a ‘Barcelonaisation’ project it is welcomed with open arms.
Yes is important not to exaggerate this issue, and to deal with it as objectively as possible, and impact images would help in this regard, but it is not an issue to be taken lightly at all. It should be given as much anaylsis as traffic implications and projected user benefits.
That is a very well considered point, the visual clutter implication could be extensive and under no other circumstances would of any of us agree presuming that anyone does that is.
Well Graham we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one. While I am only too aware of the chronic mess of signage, poles and other clutter in the city centre, the main problem for me is that it is uncoordinated. Having seen trams in operation in central squares/spaces of various European cities, I find that their dedicated pole/wirescape is not nearly as obtrusive as you imagine it would be.
As everyone knows, College Green at present is disgusting; left in a “1970s timewarp†as you rightly put it recently – the heavy traffic, narrow pavements and horrible street furniture. To put Luas through there is to do right by the city.What the pro lets fill the city with wires lobby is forgeting, is that nearly half of all Dublin Bus routes go through College Green. By only allowing Luas go through the Green you are depriving more public transport users then you allow by leting Luas on the Green, as many people as possible deserve acess to what is to many the most central of locations. As well as this the poles used for Luas cables are far wider in circumferance then the trams of old as show in the earlier photo.
Also can anyone explain why the cost of the extention is so high. In Spain they would build several kilometres of metro for 100E.Just in case you thought I was spoofing:
http://www.greenparty.ie/en/news/news_archive/green_party_urges_government_to_join_the_dots_as_new_luas_red_line_opens
If the Green Party says E100 million, I can only imagine what the Railway Procurement Agency will be saying and there is no question of a contribution from local businesses a la Cherrywood/Citywest extensions.
Another point completely ignored here is whether we want another three years with the city centre looking like a bomb has hit it.does nothing other than to make an existing service a teeny bit better
I simply disagree with this and it seems, like I said earlier, the central issue of dissagreement seems to be whether integrating the lines offers much utility. I contend that it offers a great deal of utility. I’m happy to concede that there will be an aesthetic price to pay but I think it is disingenious to try to present a picture of the link up as offering nothing more that a way to get from Stephens Green to O’Connell St. That gives a false picture of what the link-up will achieve.
Integration means that you more than double the utility of the existing infrastructure because the number of reachable destinations from any point in the system is approximately doubled. Given that the existing unintegrated system cost 800 mil to build, doubling its usefulness is cheap at 70 million (which is what I’ve heard is the estimated cost of the project). In case anyone is interested, I did the sums and there are 662 different start-end point combinations possible on the existing system (506 on the red line, 156 on the green). If the lines were joined and assuming 3 new stops were added then the number of possible journeys on the system would be 1482.
Suddenly it becomes practical to get to Connolly from Ranelagh even with luggage. Or someone arriving on an intercity train to Heuston can use the tram to get to Sandyford. A tourist can get the tram from outside their hotel in Charlemont to the national museum in Collins Barracks. At the moment, the Luas does not offer a compelling alternative to taxis or private cars for these sorts of journeys even if the weather is good and you’re happy to do a fifteen minute walk in the middle. As the system is extended (down through the IFSC) the value of the integration will be amplified.
Crestfield, we’ve heard all the scaremongering before when the current lines were being planned: the Luas would choke the city, interfere with buses, cause the mass slaughter of cyclists and pedestrians, damage businesses near the lines, the path near Heuston would cause 6 mile tailbacks along the N4, etc., etc. Despite all these dire predictions the Luas has been a huge sucesss and has complimented other public transport modes (buses and trains).
Jim G – I simply can not see a situation where you will be able to get a tram from Heuston to Sandyford without turning Lower O’Connell Street into a giant on-street tram terminus/interchange.
How do you propose running the two lines into each other in such a way that these 1482 options are a possibility?
When the government talks about a link, they are talking about running the lines close together. You will still have to get off the Tallaght tram and get on another one.
Then again, I could be wrong – but I’ve yet to see any workable proposal.
It’s also incredibly disingenuous to even utilise this 1,482 figure as it presumably includes hundreds of one or two-stop journeys. For instance:- Connolly to Busarus and Busarus to Connolly.
I would also again pose the question of how complicated the routings on two joined Luas lines can be when Connex have been unable to run the proposed ‘shorts’ from Heuston to Connolly due to congestion.
Tram jams are a regular feature at rush hour in the Abbey Street/Gardiner Street area already.
The system is already running near full capacity and complex routings won’t be logistically possible.I totally agree with your analysis kefu it is a case of linking the lines and possibly introducing a third track at Stephens Green to terminate a good number of the Sandyford trams there and connecting a smaller number of them as far as Heuston and the Point.
In the longer term it is expected that the Sandyford line will be both extended to Shangannagh to meet the DART line and upgraded to metro, if this occurs in 10 to 15 years it is entirely probable that Luas will terminate at either Charlemount/Ranelagh or Beechwood with the Metro going underground to join the rest of the rail network somewhere else.
It is absolutely imperative that we get the Luas routing right because it will be the only North-South connection that will be built over the next ten years. O’Connell St is just too problematic and if the objective is to complete the Luas plan it will involve a line to Ballymun, if Luas goes up O’Connell St it will destroy both the O’Connell St IAP and ensure that the Parnell Sq IAP is never implemented. As someone said earlier just because Arbour Hill is on a Luas line doesn’t make it anymore City Centre, I would draw a similar conclusion to area between North Freederick St and Phibsboro if the line is run on street to this alignment.
When one reads the various proposals on P11 for the north-south Luas, it is nothing short of farcical to propose an extension to Lower O’Connell Street for €70-100 if not plus, if the sole aim is to stop the line at Abbey St. It is an obcene amount of money to be spending if it does not offer real linking of the Red and Green Lines.
So yes, again it comes back to the utility derived, but as kefu highlights jimg many of the journey combinations you list are not exactly relevant, as not only do they include short journeys as described, but also journeys like Sandyford to College Green, and Sandyford to Westmoreland St – a negligible difference, and the same pattern repeated for every single stop.And how many tourists with heavy luggage travel from the suburbs into town?! Okay it’s unfair to pick on a micro example like that, but I still do not think that this single link line is remotely, not remotely worth the price tag and potential aesthetic damage for the level of utility gained.
You’re certainly correct on the one kilometre from the Green – I measured it on an OS map from the middle of the Green platform down Grafton St to behind O’Connell Mounument and it is exactly 1 kilometre! :).
But considering the tram would take at least three minutes anyway from the Green, if not more, I think the short walk through the centre for those few who need to do that (a crucial point to make), makes the scheme a non-runner for me, andin light of the two other factors mentioned.I note a lot of people on P11 are hellbent on it going up O’Connell St and Parnell Square etc, it being the most direct route to Broadstone – but again what of the wirescape? In this case the Luas lines would be preserved for the western carriageway, resulting in either wires stretched the whole way across from the east to hold the cables (in themselves passing the GPO) or a host of shiny new chunky poles the whole way down the central median!
Again I emphasis I am questioning rather than openly criticising the wirescpe as I’d like to know what the impact would be more than anything else – but personally I have never been enamoured by those two elements of European cities that others seem to find so charming – number one: tram wire and pole systems, and two: bicycle parks openly placed in architectrually significant areas which look awful.
Without having images or an idea of the impact, one thing at least can be said for certain, and that is that the city centre would be better off without these cables, and better off without a Luas terminating station on Lower O’Connell Street, if that is the plan being floated.
The real gem on the P11 site was copped by a guy called Phillip who spotted the filled in canal bed from ariel photos of Dublin 7, this stretch runs all the way from Constitution Hill directly opposite Broadstone to the canal and could deliver travel speeds equivelent to the old Harcourt St line as far as the existing canal. How the line gets there is a moot point and I feel that College Green O’Connell St is already so close to both the existing lines and the Dart that no-one can claim any real level of inconvenience. There is also the fact that the northern retail core has shifted westward and that Capel St would in fact be more convenient than O’Connell St to Luas users.
I think it worth bringing the point that Graham made in his original analysis of this namely the differing impacts of wirescapes between brick facades and light coloured stone facades which dominate most of this stretch. It will be technically impossible to hang wires from only one point between the end of Grafton St and the Westin hotel. The reality is that the choice will be
1> Wires being fixed to both TCD and Grattan’s Parliment or
2> Polls being erected at what constitutes a major traffic pinch-point even without Luas.Either way the result will be extremely negative from a both a visual clutter and a heritage point of view. The situation is that sexed up montages will be done against a white sky background showing minimal visual impact, the reality will be extremely different as 20:20 eliminates the blandness that montages can create in relation to real perspective.
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