O’ Connell Street, Dublin

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  • #729207
    GrahamH
    Participant

    Suppose anyone would in their position ๐Ÿ™‚

    The interior of this shop is interesting in that there’s an unusual wall sticking out into the shop with a curved end to it that looks exceptionally old, or even just very strange in appearance. Have a look by pretending to get a leaflet of something, an effective excuse I’ve been led to believe by eh – ‘a friend’ ๐Ÿ˜€

    It’d be great to be able to have a good root around upstairs, see if the building is as old as it seems to be, maybe c1748-50ish, and what if any original features remain.
    Either way, this building out of all of the three is the most in need of immediate attention given it has two major elevations.

    #729208
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    @Graham Hickey wrote:

    Suppose anyone would in their position ๐Ÿ™‚

    The interior of this shop is interesting in that there’s an unusual wall sticking out into the shop with a curved end to it that looks exceptionally old, or even just very strange in appearance. Have a look by pretending to get a leaflet of something, an effective excuse I’ve been led to believe by eh – ‘a friend’ ๐Ÿ˜€ .

    You mean you didn’t get your brochure already, and you didn’t ask about last minute deals. Tut Tut

    They did great specials to New York at one stage 200 pounds in 2001 return, deal of the decade.

    @Graham Hickey wrote:

    It’d be great to be able to have a good root around upstairs, see if the building is as old as it seems to be, maybe c1748-50ish, and what if any original features remain.
    Either way, this building out of all of the three is the most in need of immediate attention given it has two major elevations.

    I’d say you would have two chances of getting a look at the upstairs interior of that building, its hard to know what would remain, given some of the dreadful refits that would have occured to convert many of these O’Connell St buildings into offices post 1960.

    But definitely the front and probably side elevations are in contravention of both the IAP objectives and the ‘Protected Structure Legislation’

    #729209
    Jack White
    Participant

    @Graham Hickey wrote:

    A full programme of works needs to be carried out, even the possibility of revealing Gardiner’s Georgian brick ought to be investigated with the help of the CC.

    What are the chances that the brick would be in decent condition?

    #729210
    magicbastarder
    Participant

    apols if it has been mentioned already, but what is the purpose of the current road widening on upper o’connell street? is this for cycle lanes?

    #729211
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    There is to be road widening at the centre with the median being pruned a little and the side footpaths are to be widened, there will when its finished be two northbound and two southbound or a total of 4 lanes of traffic from the current six excluding the section where the taxi-rank is which will see the four lanes move in towards the centre. There will be new cycle lanes and more pedestrian space and at some stage the street will probably be designated public transport vehicles only to traffic calm the atmosphere, although that move will be easier said than done.

    #729212
    magicbastarder
    Participant

    they’re widening the road by eating into the footpaths, not the median – which seemed an odd thing to do when the entire street will be remodelled sooner or later.

    #729213
    GrahamH
    Participant

    The narrowing of the footpaths is a temporary measure presumably to funnel traffic while service laying and median works are taking place on other lanes of the street. They will be widened subsequent to the works.

    @Jack White wrote:

    What are the chances that the brick would be in decent condition?

    Well thatรขโ‚ฌโ„ขs the key question isnรขโ‚ฌโ„ขt it?!
    Iรขโ‚ฌโ„ขve heard of and seen the odd scheme where render removal has proved very successful, but the process can be difficult and seems to vary between individual cases.

    Obviously itรขโ‚ฌโ„ขs not an issue to be treated lightly]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/Dublin1/SackvilleMallComparison.jpg[/IMG]

    The two low, what appear to be commercial buildings, match the current day corner structures exactly, while the first of Gardinerรขโ‚ฌโ„ขs houses steps up after five bays.

    The รขโ‚ฌหœCome In And Visitรขโ‚ฌโ„ข building today is the very first of these two-bay merchant houses, that according to Tudor, stretched as far down as Dublin Bus, where a larger house or two houses on the site broke the march. From here on a mixture of two and three-bay houses predominated.

    To be able to reveal the last remaining of what would seem to be Gardiner-built houses, as opposed to architect-built in the case of the RDH house, would be very significant. Of course other houses possibly remain behind Lynamรขโ‚ฌโ„ขs Hotel, but it has a substantial and very attractive Victorian faรƒยงade.

    But with Joe Walsh on the corner, the window surrounds are at best poor and cheap-looking, and are comparatively insignificant. Personally Iรขโ‚ฌโ„ขve always found their proportions rather ugly, presumably why it isnรขโ‚ฌโ„ขt protected, but the blue property next door certainly has attractive surrounds on the first floor.
    Interesting how the shop fronts of these two properties today match almost exactly those of two and a half centuries ago รขโ‚ฌโ€œ with a door in the centre to access the upper floors ๐Ÿ™‚

    As the buildings stand, their rendered facades on what is up to that point a street of quality รขโ‚ฌหœrealรขโ‚ฌโ„ข materials of stone and brick jar somewhat with other buildings รขโ‚ฌโ€œ especially how theyรขโ‚ฌโ„ขre sandwiched in between the distinguished GPO and National Irish Bank, and the fact that theyรขโ‚ฌโ„ขre corner buildings making them even more prominent. If quality brick facades were to be revealed, theyรขโ‚ฌโ„ขd look really magnificent on that site, particularly in relation to the GPO รขโ‚ฌโ€œ theyรขโ‚ฌโ„ขd set it off.

    The removal of render is a contentious issue and rightly so รขโ‚ฌโ€œ too many period buildings are being destroyed by people ripping the render off rubble walls never intended to be exposed, and often losing attractive stucco features in the process.

    In this instance, the walls appear to have been originally brick-clad, as intended as the final finish.
    The Dept of Environmentรขโ‚ฌโ„ขs Architectural Heritage Guidelines state that รขโ‚ฌล“all original architectural detailing should be respected, as should later additions, embellishments or remodelling of definite quality. รขโ‚ฌยฆthe planning authority may consider it desirable to encourage the reversal of unsatisfactory alterations that disfigure or conceal earlier work of greater meritรขโ‚ฌยฆรขโ‚ฌย

    It goes on to note that appropriate research should be carried out first to ascertain the original appearance of the building, and that tests be carried out to establish underlying conditions etc.

    Either way, all of these buildings need serious work, and at the very least a decent restoration of all three in tandem with each other could make them look, if not spectacular, then at least charming and a worthy contribution to the street.

    #729214
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    That monochrome is a very pretty image possibly the finest print I’ve seen of Upper O’Connell St it really gives a sense of the planned nature of the Street and the way that every last detail of the time was thought out.

    You are correct that all three need work particularly the JWT building that must have the most inappropriate door and glazing to ground floor level on the Street, it would be a high risk strategy for the owners to strip off the render as you say but seeing its condition there would be little harm in DCC making a modest grant towards examination of the restoration options. If the brick work is in very poor condition it can be re-rendered, there is as you say no question that at any stage that this building had an external plaster finish of any real merit. Most critically its current finishes and joinery are detracting significantly from the Streetscape directly accross from The GPO one of Irelands most historically important sites.

    That plastic telephone sticker in the ‘Come In and Visit ‘ building has definitely not passed a retention timeframe and is detracting significantly from the value of a protected structure of considerable charm.

    #729215
    GrahamH
    Participant

    It’s always reminded me of a Lego brick that came with a train station set – had that exact symbol on it ๐Ÿ™‚ ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

    #729216
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    That interest in lego models never left you ๐Ÿ˜€

    It is a particularly anywhere style image although I’ve never seen such a plain image on such a scale.

    I think that the Median as displayed in the monograph would have been appropriate for the street today, the symmetry is damn good. ๐Ÿ™‚

    #729217
    Jack White
    Participant

    @Graham Hickey wrote:

    It’s always reminded me of a Lego brick that came with a train station set – had that exact symbol on it ๐Ÿ™‚ ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

    Was that the Citywest set?

    #729218
    GrahamH
    Participant

    Yes – I went out and bought a City West in Toymaster…
    They’re flying off the shelves apparently ๐Ÿ™‚

    Here’s a rather strange picture of a mock-up of part of the west terrace of Upper O’Connell St (attachment). Apologies as to the copy n’ paste nature of it, I’m not exactly a dab hand at Photoshop, but it’s better than some of the graphics in the IAP ๐Ÿ˜€

    Despite it being rather crude, it is to scale. Note how all of the building plots even today are regular, two-bay Georgian widths right up to Dublin Bus. Interestingly even Dublin Bus today imitates the taller parapet height of the original large house/s on the site.
    After Dublin Bus, the plot widths become quite varied, although not really evident in this pic as the building next door to themodern building was a two-bay house too.

    Apologies for the alarming subsidence Dublin Bus is experiencing ๐Ÿ˜€

    #729219
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Thats a good bit of photoshop that I doubt any lense would be wide enough to capture from the far sdie of the road.

    The NIB is the odd one out here isn’t it? In that the rest of the buildings are faithful to their original dimensions in Gardiners Sackville Mall.

    #729220
    ctesiphon
    Participant

    To rewind for a second:
    Graham-
    I always thought the oldest building on O’Connell Street was the Georgian building near the north end on the west side? Can’t think what flanks it, but I’m sure you know the one I mean: pedimented doorcase, sash windows, etc.
    Maybe the salient fact is that it’s the only one that remains in anything like its orignal appearance.

    Open to correction… ๐Ÿ™‚

    #729221
    GrahamH
    Participant

    Yes, the fact that it’s the only one that retains its original appearance does tend to lead you in that direction:

    But as far as I know it dates from 1752 (as stated by the hotel’s literature and Frank McDonald etc), meaning that it wasn’t even built by the time the Tudor engraving was made!
    Indeed it’s entirely likely most of the Upper street wasn’t even remotely finished by the time Tudor made his engraving.

    Whereas the buildings on the Henry St corner, although by no means set in stone, are perhaps likely to be older than the 1752 Castle house considering they’re at the bottom of the Mall, and were closest to the commerical Drogheda & Henry Sts.

    Indeed I’ve often wondered if the origins of the buildings are even older than Gardiner’s scheme – maybe even being the last part of Henry St that remained following the demolition of other buildings on the street to create Sackville Mall?
    Condsiering they’re lower than the dignified new houses, they seem a rather strange way to start off a new street unless perhaps they were part of the older one?

    #729222
    ctesiphon
    Participant

    I was misled by my old Art History lecture (who should remain nameless). ๐Ÿ˜ฎ
    Luckily, you were here to set me straight. ๐Ÿ™‚
    Thanks for that.

    #729223
    Paul OMahony
    Participant

    The building on the corner of O’Connell Street (above the Travel Shop) was proposed by my company to be used as a pilot project as a suitable building to receive full funding under our proposed scheme ‘building-conservation sponsorship’. Following discussions with the owner of this building, the owner had agreed with our proposal that a full architectural conservation report would first be carried out on the building, and if found that it would be possible to remove the rendering from the brickwork without damaging the brickwork, a full and proper restoration of this building would be undertaken to return this building to its former glory. This included removal of PVC windows and returning the windows to teh original wooden sash windows.

    It was proposed that this undertaking would be fully paid for by my company using the ‘building-conservation sponsorship’ scheme. Anyone not knowing what our proposed scheme enatiled please see my thread under ‘high specification shrouding’.

    Our proposal to fund carrying out this work on this building in conjunction with having a proper architectural conservation plan carried out on the building was never replied to.

    #729224
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Paul,

    my copy of Thoms is in the office so I am unable to identify the travel shop could you post a picture of same.

    Thomond Park

    #729225
    GrahamH
    Participant

    Paul – how do you mean the proposal wasn’t replied to, by the City Council or the owners? Thanks.

    That is nothing short of fascinating news regarding the proposal for the render to be removed to expose the brickwork!
    It would be wonderful if it could be done – and yes the aluminium frames on the top floor suffice to say would have to go, amongst other things ๐Ÿ™‚

    As for the idea of your company being the ones to instigate the works – whereas I fully commend your intentions, it would be nothing short of egregiously ridiculous that of all sites in the country that needed a privately funded incentive to get conservation works carried out, that this is the building going for that option.
    This building, indeed this street has tax incentives coming out its ears!

    If the owner is proposing to restore the building soley on the grounds of your (good intentioned) private money coming in to fund it, above the incentives that have been sitting there for the past goodness how long, then frankly shame on him.
    If this is not the case, then fair enough, but it does come across as just a little irritating when you’ve been following the lack of progress on Upper O’Connell Street properties for some years.

    #729226
    Paul OMahony
    Participant

    Graham,

    tax insentives are all very fine and in some cases they do play an active role in encouraging property owners to do something about their buildings….however, becauseof the market economy that we live in today, they do not go even half far enough. The simple truth is that many property-owners do not care about the upkeep of the facade of their properties. They are concerned about the interiors only and that is only because it is the interiors which provide them with their vast amounts of income.

    Our concept – like it or not – has the effect of suddenly getting the landlord to wake up and pay attention – why, because suddenly he/she sees a way of getting the renovation/restoration of the exterior of their building – in some cases – fully paid for.

    Tax incentives are fine and they provide the property owner with a saving of a few thousand however the property owner knows that they will also have to spend large amounts of money by going down that road. The money created from our scheme is immediate…as the money comes in from the advertising sponsor, the money is paid immediately to the property-owner. That money must be used for the conservation work – the property-owner has signbed a contract tio that effect when he agreed to participate in the scheme.

    The concept has the potential to raise Euro 5,000-Euro 70,000 for the conservation work to be carried out – this kind of money cannot be raised in any other way but this….past evidence has shown that it is not going to subsidised by govt.funding or by grants from anywhere else.

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