O’ Connell Street, Dublin

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  • #729127
    GregF
    Participant

    Would be good too if they removed that large unslightly concrete cube from this part of the median too. Dunno what its there for.

    #729128
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    The box is connected in some way with the Luas I read somewhere on Platform11, why it was put here raises questions given the number of alternative locations that would have been available.

    #729129
    GregF
    Participant

    Aye …..probably connected to the LUAS electrics. Could be camouflaged by dressing it up as a plinth for another statue.

    #729130
    Frank Taylor
    Participant

    Could they dig a hole and drop the box in? Or disguise it as something else?

    #729131
    urbanisto
    Participant

    The substation will be camouflaged by being incorporated into a kiosk planned for this location. Two more kiosks are meant to go in this summer outside Easons and Permanet TSB.

    I think the bicycle parking issue on the street needs to be dealt with. Its getting out of hand. Leaving aside the fact that the original thinking behind the plan was to remove all ‘services’ on the street the median thereby leaving the side pavements free for people, the fact that so many biks stands are provided and allowed is as someone mentioned the worst form of visual clutter.

    I was thinking of what a lost opportunity the Luas works on Abbey St were to reinvent the street. It now looks so windswept and bare – not even enough traffic! A move pedestrain centred scheme here, with lots of planting could also have incorportated bike stands that would lessen the demand on OC st.

    #729132
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    @StephenC wrote:

    I was thinking of what a lost opportunity the Luas works on Abbey St were to reinvent the street. It now looks so windswept and bare – not even enough traffic! A move pedestrain centred scheme here, with lots of planting could also have incorportated bike stands that would lessen the demand on OC st.

    Good points. It does look very bare. Would you suggest to widen out the footpath further here to provide bike parking?

    #729133
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I agree Middle Abbey St is a very dull urban space and is almost eerie in the evenings, landscaping would be a good start. It would be an interesting experiment to see how much neighbouring streets could benefit from the O’Connell St spillover

    #729134
    GrahamH
    Participant

    Yes eerie is an appropriate description, including the daylight hours! It is a most bizzare place now: not a main street, but not a secondary one either, located just off a major thoroughfare yet recieves little to no traffic. It’s more of a leftover space than a street.

    It’s in a prime loaction yet there’s absolutely nothing on it – including people! Do you ever get the feeling walking along here that everyone’s very hushed and slightly nervous cause the street just feels so silent and weird?!

    Agreed about the Luas works not finishing the place off properly; whereas the lack of traffic is great – it’s now one of the most pedestrian friendly streets in the city – some landscaping is badly needed. Not to go on about the linear thing again, but considering there’s no breaks on Middle Abbey St at all save the Arnotts car park, a very impressive avenue of trees could be planted here that’d really look fantastic.

    Something along the lines of the beautiful species of tree on Talbot St of all places – anyone see them?
    They probably get mostly ignored due to people walking with their heads down along here for obvious reasons :), but they’re very attractive, esp when ‘leafing’ if there’s such a word, in spring.
    I’m sure Peter knows what they are…:

    Regarding O’Connell St, agreed about the median not being a fiasco. From a functional perspective it’s simply the bikes that are causing the problem – get rid of them and all is solved in that respect, though considering the attention to detail in the manner they were put down it seems they’re permanent… The fact as J. Serski pointed out that the median is now narrower than the old does not help either in fitting the bike parks in, whatever about the appearance.
    Abbey St should be able to absorb a lot, as well as Cathal Brugha St for the northern end.

    It’s a pity the Luas sub-station could not have been sunk; its sheer scale is going to significantly bulk out what is supposed to be a simple kiosk, not a dominant structure. Judging by the pictures though it will be finished off very well.
    And just on the sinking of services, why was this 80s signal box dumped back down from space into the middle of the Eason’s pavement?!

    #729135
    J. Seerski
    Participant

    I think the point is missed though – the corporation has had EIGHT years to perfect the O’Connell Street rejuvination yet not only has it been incoherent in places but is also less than half finished! I was 18 when the programme for rejuvination was launched, still sipping coffee in Hilpers in UCD. Now, no hilpers, a degree, a postgrad and five years working (!) eight years later, O’Connell Street is still only just partially finished and many critical elements – shopfronts, shop usage, the Carlton Centre etc. are in the same sorry state as 1997.

    I am positive that things are improving, but at an infirm snail’s pace.

    Dubin Corporation should be lauded when things go right. In this case they should be berated. This project could have been completed in a year and I will probably be facing retirement before I see the last peice of granite set on the pavement. I fear to ask how much the project has costed so far. For God’s sake lads, massive shopping centres, housing estates, skyscrapers etc etc etc are finished within a year – this repavement of one street has gone on long enough. 😡

    #729136
    JPD
    Participant

    That is a very clear view of it, 7 years for a paving job does sound a little much.

    #729137
    asdasd
    Participant

    I believe that there were tree huggers involved, no? All Irish projects take so long because of the large amount of time spent on public consultations, and displays, and feedback – none of which stops objectors making objections at the last minute or chaining themselve to trees.

    About a year , or so, ago the average person in the street thought that the corpo was vandalising trees in O’Connell street and was vehemently opposed to that sort of thing. The spire had strong opposition too. People are marching even now to keep ruined victorian baths in Dun Laoighre safe from modernity.

    I would not just blame the authorities.

    #729138
    GrahamH
    Participant

    A year for repaving is pushing it, not least considering it’s much more than just a paving job, but certainly two-three years is not an unreasonable expectation. The pace has been exceptionally slow considering less than half has been completed in that time alone – remembering that the south-eastern section has yet to be dealt with in any form. The time taken thus far would not be so disagreeable were it not for the six year delay it took to get physical work started on the street in the first instance, as has been said so many times by so many people. And this in turn after proposals since the 1980s to get something done about the street!

    To reminisce also – I remember standing under the vast canopy of the lower median trees next to a mock-Victorian iron seat in freezing November of 2002 and thinking of how amazing O’Connell St was going to look upon completion in a few years time.
    It was impossible to imagine the thoroughfare without the trees – what it would look like minus their canopy, without the trademark heritage lampposts, without the traditional seating, without the red brick-edged wide median, without the man who used to always sit on the seat opposite Eason’s.
    It was exciting that O’Connell St was going to be cleared out of mismatched elements and a cohesive scheme for the whole street, the whole street, was to be constructed from scratch.

    The plaza element has materialised as expected, and hugely successfully save perhaps its median area being a bit strange.

    The side pavements have materialised as planned, again very successful.

    The quality of the works promised has materialised, the attention to detail superb: for example the way the paving elegantly slopes down at crossings to meet the road level as if lightly pressed down like modelling clay – really exquisitely executed.

    The exposure of the monuments has materialised to great effect – now once again central features of the street.

    What has not materialised, what as I and most people I know were most impressed about was the Champs Elysées-like order intended for the thoroughfare – the bold, radical even, but nonetheless simple planting arrangement for the median space.
    Likewise the street’s symmetry has been diluted with granite paving spilling over for no reason from the plaza onto the roadway, and the plaza into the median-proper due to a lack of tree definition.

    The very first aim of tree use on the street that the IAP sets out is to ‘create a high level of spatial definition’.
    It also states at the outset of the Public Domain section ‘How often have we witnessed…street-planting which is inappropriate to its location, all contributing to a feeling of clutter and over-design on an ad hoc and unintegrated basis.’

    Also: ‘A properly constituted strategy for the creation of a visually cohesive and coherent public domain will be based on the identification of precise needs for each component of the urban fabric…’
    Unfortunately it doesn’t identify the layout and form of the street as a one of them 🙁

    Of course most of this is entirely subjective; one person’s cohesiveness is another’s chaos – and yes the ordered symmetry has materialised with the side pavement trees, but the median ones just dilute their impact to a degree that is detrimental to the cohesive design intended. I feel the street very simply is too narrow and too fragmented, especially the lower end, to accommodate so much variation.

    #729139
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    In fairness to the O’Connell St planners they never sanctioned a 10 storey building like the Dun Laoghaire plan envisages for what are both sensitive locations. I agree with Graham that it is unfair to point to tree-huggers given that the section of the Street with the trees hasn’t even been touched and that the remainder of the Street without trees has taken the best part of a decade to partially complete.

    I think that we are getting a lot closer to the source of the problem when one considers a comparison with some of the great Parisian boulevards and the unified design of these and the lack of cohesion in the O’Connell St proposal. It is an obvious reality that space is at an absolute premium in O’Connell St and that the designers had a very simple choice on how to use that space, my problem is that I feel that in some sections too much space was used widening the side pavements and not enough on the central median.

    The meagre allocation has been further compounded by the inappropriate siting of non-essential items such as the bicycle parking and a luas transformer. Mistakes that could have been avoided with just a little thought and a little co-ordination.

    You can blame incidents like objections to the Spire and the delays to the Carlton project for a certain amount of delay in very specific sections of the Street but these excuses can only be relied upon for a very small proportion of the problem.

    #729140
    Jack White
    Participant

    But are they going to sort the mess out or has the money been wasted?

    #729141
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Wasting public money is a national sport in this Country, thankfully removing the bicycle stands and incorporating the luas transformer into a kiosk could be easily acheived at a pretty minimal cost. It does raise the point on why this grand plan doesn’t have some mechanism like a mid-term review where minor glitches could be ironed out.

    Graham the images of Talbot St are great, that end of the street has come along nicely from the scene of total dereliction it was just a few short years ago. The trees have really added to the sense of place and the monument is really well done giving an appropriate sense of dignity for the victims of 31 years ago to this day.

    #729142
    GrahamH
    Participant

    Isn’t it – a poignant reminder to pass every day. Just a pity about the inevitable bunches of flowers smothered in disgusting plastic that are often laid at its base. I can never understand how people can leave such muck, often wrapped in reams of sellotape at the scenes of disasters, accidents or memorials; such materials are an affront to dignity.
    And these personal affectations assume the role monuments are built for; they ought to be restricted to the annual laying of wreaths and floral tributes – of course being mindful of what it means to people, but it is in the common interest to adhere to such a policy.

    On O’Connell St I think it’s important not to let comparitively niggly issues like the bicycles get the the way of what has broadly been a successful scheme thus far – though just on the issue of the sub-station I do think its placement in that location broadly highlights the esteem in which the median space on the street is now being held.
    There is no way in a million years such a feature, regardless of how it was to be ‘decorated’, would have been allowed on the median in the 1910s & 1920s reconstruction, or the 19th century for that matter – directly behind O’Connell Monument. No way.
    It’s just that the myriad of poles and trees and bikes and bollards here has ‘urbanised’ or cluttered the space to such a degree that its alien presence won’t be noticed nearly as much – they ‘cover for it’ as it were.

    If you want to see a comparison between the new and old widths of the median go up to Upper O’Cll St just opposite the Royal Dublin Hotel. The new median footprint has been outlined in red spray-paint on the existing median; it’s interesting to note the different scales – the new version being reduced in size by 2.5 – 3 feet on each side, overall a reduction of just under 6 feet it would seem.
    In light of this one wonders as to the wasted space given over to the cycle path on the inside lane of the new western carriageway – it is rarely availed of as few cyclists are stupid enough to put their life in their hands using it.

    #729143
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I totally agree on the cycle lane being under-utilised. I feel that this could all change if the Council ban private cars from the Street as the main hazard would then become buses and on the inside lane you would be protected from buses stopping suddenly to allow passengers on or off,

    Re: The bicycle parking and the sub-station, I think that these two elements are symptomatic of a much larger problem, I don’t think that the designers fully considered just how tight space is in O’Connell St; if four lanes of traffic and three pedestrian spaces are to be accomodated. Something has got to give and I am sceptical of the ability of the kiosks to perform well if the space isn’t there for the ancilliary tables and chairs. Good cafes at these locations could be the making of this urban space giving the City something distinctive, ultra-modern in a historical setting.

    I noticed today that the scaffolding is down from the Larkin statue and it looks really well, the granite has come up really well and the colour of the statue has been preserved well, hopefully this is an indication of what is to follow.

    #729144
    urbanisto
    Participant

    Theobald Matthew is white! Its quite a remarkable transformation.

    This is an interesting appraisal of success of the redevelopment to date. I would also question why on earth it is taking so long to complete. Things are only finally beginning to happen on Upper OC St . I heard Dick Gleeson remarking that the works to date had all been completed without the promised funding from DOEHLG. Dick Roche can talk the talk but not wlak the walk it seems.

    I think most elements of the street have been very successful and the widened pavemnets alone are an excellent innovation for the street. The trees will mature in a few years and the street will begin to really take shape. What will be passed on (hopefully) is a legacy the same way the widened Sackville Street was a legacy from its time. Its also very hard to make a judgement on the street until its all completed. I was just thinking how different again the Spire will look once the paving and tree planting on the other side is completed.

    Its also worth remembering that most of the buildings are in private hands and that the CC is depending on owners to fuind their renovation.

    What I do think is terrible is the timescale this is being played out over. Side streets like Malborough (the worst in the city?) Sackvill Place, Cathedral Street and, as I said earlier, Abbey Street all remain to have even a sniff of the IAP. Works here would be reletavely minor. Improved paving (doesnt have to be expensive granite) , street resurfacing for Malb. (much needed), some trees planting and a unified lighting scheme could be put in place within a few months, A targeted incentive programme for derelict sites would do wonders in a city taht will soon be crying out for development sites.

    #729145
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    It is very true that central sites are getting rarer by the day and it is equally true that Marlborough St is the most under-performing street in all of Central Dublin. This is an utter disgrace when you consider that this Street contains

    1> The Cathedral of the majority religion.
    2> The National Theatre
    3> The Planning Appeals Board
    4> The Headquarters of the Department of Education.
    5> The most important Tourism and hospitality College in the Country

    It is not a very hospitable place unfortunately and this Street should be one of Dublins best given its location and strategically important occupiers, what really galls me is the dreadful multi-storey car-park that received tax incentives for what has only served to deteriorate the setting still further. There is a very fine terrace of Georgians between DIT and the Cathedral that many of are in terrible condition and no intervention is made whilst a house in poor condition in Upper Leeson St was CPO’d earlier this year. Unfortunately it would appear that this Street does not exist in the eyes of certain people and like Cathedral Street and Sackville Place it has been left to rot.

    Re; O’Connell St, The banner has now gone from above cafe Kylemore, McDonalds on Upper O’Connell St has bush sized weeds growing on its gable and yes Theobald Matthew is very white.

    #729146
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    @StephenC wrote:

    Things are only finally beginning to happen on Upper OC St . I heard Dick Gleeson remarking that the works to date had all been completed without the promised funding from DOEHLG. Dick Roche can talk the talk but not wlak the walk it seems.

    😀 He He

    It is very difficult for local authorities to act on promises that aren’t kept. But they also need to start looking at the neighbouring Streets as well.

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