O’ Connell Street, Dublin
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urbanisto.
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- September 16, 2009 at 9:25 pm #731467
gunter
Participant
. . . . and people always complain that our public transport isn’t integrated.
When is the first meeting of the O’Connell Street Survivors Group?
September 16, 2009 at 10:07 pm #731468missarchi
ParticipantThis is the spot where the luas honks.
I’m surprised there is not a video of the actual crash floating around from de bunkers.
All buses have internal cameras?
Hope everyone ok. How does the photographer get in that building?
You can see the new it building…
That’s why you have bumps on roads…September 17, 2009 at 8:29 am #731469dc3
ParticipantAmazingly very little signs of the crash there this morning, and the street is open more or less as usual, just guards and yellow tape.
I heard a man on the bus say in the A&E Department last night that only for diving out of his seat, as he saw the crash coming and on to the floor, he would have been a goner. I can well believe it looking at the photos.
While not wishing to judge as to what happened, or how caused, I still believe that the colour chosen for the Luas makes it hard to see.It tends to blur into the grey background in certain light conditions. The front and rear, at least, should have more prominent, high visibility markings. There are many out there with poor sight and difficulty with hearing.
Incidentally, there is a nice view of the “Heineken” sign, also a recent topic here, in one of the photos.
September 17, 2009 at 8:43 am #731470missarchi
ParticipantI think its more to do with sight lines and trees than colours…
Anyway that’s what speed bumps are for…September 17, 2009 at 11:16 am #731471urbanisto
ParticipantI dont think its anything to do with sightlines and trees. It would seem to me its more to do with jumping lights or perhaps incorrect phasing of light with too short an interval between when one set goes red and another green.
September 17, 2009 at 10:50 pm #731472missarchi
Participanthttp://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0917/breaking4.html?via=mr
I also agree with your points stephenc;)
September 18, 2009 at 9:08 am #731473urbanisto
ParticipantLuckily there are 5 investigations taking place to tell us this….
September 18, 2009 at 10:47 am #731474GregF
ParticipantLuckily no one was killed. It was a horrendous accident.
September 18, 2009 at 11:34 am #731475urbanisto
ParticipantI shouldnt….but it is funny
September 18, 2009 at 11:48 am #731476johnglas
ParticipantThere are many out there with poor sight and difficulty with hearing.
dc3: Yes, but you kind of hope they’re not driving buses. This won’t stop until prosecutions follow; any bets?
September 19, 2009 at 10:56 am #731477Smithfield Resi
ParticipantI shouldnt….but it is funny
Priceless…..
September 22, 2009 at 10:05 pm #731478Ciaran
Participant@Smithfield Resi wrote:
Priceless…..
^^^ love it 🙂
October 16, 2009 at 11:38 pm #731479GrahamH
ParticipantThe confusion generated by conflicting historical depictions of the roofline and parapets of the JWT building at the corner of O’Connell Street Upper and Henry Street, dating to c. 1751, can now be said to be largely resolved.
As previously posted here, this curious drawing of 1818 showed us a tall parapet wall with attic windows that do not align with the pitch behind, and a gabled or exposed hipped roof.

While this image of 1827 showed a regular matching parapet. The windows were wrong though.

A Brocas print from around the same time showed the former mismatched parapet – so two pictures against one now (though windows also wrong here).

While 1860s and later photographs showed the parapet matched up either way by that stage.

However, this remarkable image shows things in an entirely new light. Kindly supplied by historian Peter Walsh, the picture is from amongst the first sets of photographs ever taken in Ireland c. 1845. Here we can clearly make out the original massive Georgian hipped roof and mismatched parapets!

Also a cute little dormer in the mix. We can also see that the vertical ranks of fenestration are not spaced evenly as they are today, confirming what we suspected – that the entire facade was likely to have been refaced in the mid-19th century.
Below is the wider view showing long-lost Victorian facades on North Earl Street, of a frothy character typical of the 19th century embellishments on Sackville Street, and very similar to elegant stucco fragments that still survive around the corner on Marlborough Street today.

Two angled chimneystacks also penetrate the JWT corner building today – one on the back wall (in line with the fat rear chimney in the above photo) and one on the northern party wall. This is almost certainly the oldest building on O’Connell Street. It is extraordinary that one of the first buildings to be built on Gardiner’s Mall is also one of the last to survive, and even more so next to the cauldron that was the GPO.
October 17, 2009 at 2:03 pm #731480gunter
ParticipantGreat stuff Graham!
That window spacing is a bit of a surprise when you think that neither Grace in 1749, nor Brocas in 1818 picked it up, and given that the present, regularly spaced five bay arrangement, matches almost exactly what they drew (in error it now seems), except for the roof profile obviously.
What I wouldn’t give to be able to go back in time, with a decent camera!
. . . . ok I’m not stupid, I know time travel is out of the question, . . . . but if we could just send back money, as anonymous benefactors from the future, we could put some of these guys through draughting school!For twenty quid you could probably get the whole Brocas clan drawing like James Malton, and for another thirty quid there’d be genuine hope for Tudor :rolleyes:
Here’s another old photograph that shows the building in it’s later 19th century guise, before the brickwork was rendered. The tram is at it’s ‘Pillar’ terminus and the horses are being switched to draw it back down the street. What a commanding presence the pillar was, up close!

Graham, do you think that the windows were originally grouped, with the three central bays evenly spaced? The little dormer looks like it could be giving slight emphasis to the central bay of a uniform composition, perhaps.
October 17, 2009 at 2:35 pm #731481GrahamH
ParticipantThat’s what I was thinking too gunter, but would it match up with the concept of a two-bay boarding house with attendant three-bay private residence as depicted by Oliver Grace? We know only too well the Irish classical school’s love affair with expressing internal functions through window spacing…

Nonetheless, I think we can take the window spacings of all the above drawings with a pinch of salt – they’re all too absract in each of their own ways to warrant in-depth analysis. I think three clustered windows to the middle are the most likely, as we know that a staircase originally ran up the centre of the building, and still does in an altered state, accessed from the street via a centrally-placed entrance door, in the early classical/baroque tradition.
What I find interesting is that the effort was made to reface the entire facade in brick, rather than just shift the odd ope, build up the parapet and smother the whole lot in Victorian icing. It would have been so much cheaper. This is especially curious given that many WSC brick facades on Sackville Street had already been given this fashionable new treatment by 1850. Perhaps there were structural problems with the building? We are also now presented with the prospect that there may be a yellow brick facade underneath that render today *rubs hands*. The fact that we know a relatively modern brick facade of c. 1850 is likely to lie underneath the render also pretty much proves that it was the impact of 1916 that caused the building to be rendered – there would have been no other reason to do so.
October 17, 2009 at 8:58 pm #731482gunter
Participant@GrahamH wrote:
What I find interesting is that the effort was made to reface the entire facade in brick, rather than just shift the odd ope, build up the parapet and smother the whole lot in Victorian icing.
In some ways it almost looks like an insurance job!
The rebuilding is virtually like-for-like, but with the windows now, almost unconsciously, spaced equally, and the roof now pitched at the prevailing lower angle, but otherwise no significant change at all and certainly no real ambition to take advantage of what would have been an exceptionally high profile commercial location. It all looks like as if some fire insurace company inspector was standing over it with a clipboard making sure that no expenditure on ‘enhancement’ was slipping through.
I wonder if we checked the newspapers for the years between Peter walsh’s photograph (1850?) and say 1880, would we find a report that a fire took down the corner of Henry St. and O’Connell St.?
October 18, 2009 at 1:02 pm #731483GrahamH
ParticipantQuite possible yes. It’s hard to think of any other reason why a facade would be tweaked in such a minor way at such enormous expense.
The publishing period would also be quite small, ranging from c. 1845 to 1860, as we know the alterations were in place through late 1860s photographs, while the old-fashioned new Georgian windows that were installed – and as still survive to the side elevation today – date the modification to the late 1840s or early 1850s. A quick search of The Irish Times archive beckons…
It really goes to show though doesn’t it – even in a solid, formulaic-looking case as this, buildings are not always as they seem.
October 19, 2009 at 8:32 pm #731484gunter
Participant@GrahamH wrote:
. . . . . the publishing period would also be quite small, ranging from c. 1845 to 1860, as we know the alterations were in place through late 1860s photographs. . . .
Just checked Shaw’s Directory and it appears that the rebuilt version was in place by 1850, which narrows the alteration down now to just about five years, c. 1845 – 1850.

The five bay structure (nos. 68 & 69) is shown here on the left with the evenly spaced fenestration and the heavy first floor window mouldings of the later version.
October 19, 2009 at 9:03 pm #731485GrahamH
ParticipantAh Shaw’s – of course! Doh!

I’m delighted with this, as from day one I thought these alterations had an 1840s appearance – a rare enough survivor in the city centre. How we can now pinpoint the date of the alterations so accurately is pretty darn impressive! It’s incredibly rare one encounters such a well-charted history of a modest building from its inception to the present day, especially over two and a half centuries. The symmetry of the original Georgian centrally-placed entrance and staircase is extremely apparent above, even though it’s a replacement shopfront.
Also note the above Shaw’s chimney is the same chimney as visible in this c. 1860 photograph, and as still evident today. This is not the rear wall corner stack, but what would appear to be an 1840s insertion into a room-dividing wall. This manifests itself as a standard rectangular stack inside the building.
November 23, 2009 at 10:59 pm #731486GrahamH
Participant@gunter wrote:
Just checked Shaw’s Directory and it appears that the rebuilt version was in place by 1850, which narrows the alteration down now to just about five years, c. 1845 – 1850.
For anyone still with us on this (:o), we can now narrow down the date of alteration of this curious Georgian building to a single year. The entries for Thom’s Dublin Street Directory for the premises in the relevant period are:
1845
No. 68 William Harrison, saddler and harness maker
No. 69 John Hughes, fruiterer; John Keegan, tobacconist; Maria Healy, linen draper1846
No. 68 William Harrison, saddler and harness maker
No. 69 John Hughes, fruiterer; John Keegan, tobacconist; Maria Healy, linen draper; Mrs Robinson, dress warerooms1847
No. 68 William Harrison, saddler and harness maker
No. 69 Edward O’Connor, fruiterer1849
No. 68 Rebuilding 🙂
No, 69 Vacant1850
No. 68 Vacant
No, 69 James Hughes, watchmaker & jeweller1851
No. 68 Rathmines Omnibus Association – waiting room
No, 69 James Hughes, watchmaker & jewellerExasperatingly, the 1848 edition is the only volume out of the entire 19th century collection missing in the Pearse Street Library! Gah!
The apparent gradual depletion of tenants over the course of the mid-1840s suggests a deliberate evacuation of the building on the part of its owners, and that the alterations were planned rather than the result of a fire or other random occurance. It is likely most of the major rebuilding took place in 1848.
The gold chip omnibus tenants with their waiting rooms in No. 68, albeit under a number of different names, were still in the premises well into the 1850s, and probably for much longer.
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