O’ Connell Street, Dublin

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  • #730867
    gunter
    Participant

    The developers must be having a right old laugh at the at the fractious nature of the initial responce to this proposal. Everyone’s firing off salvos at anything that looks like a target. To my mind Peter FitzPatrick, StephenC and Alonso said the most sensible things, admittedly, in some pretty colourful language, principally:

    We all knew this was coming.
    It’s not as bad as it could have been. More urban spaces and better permeability are what many of us have been looking for, for years.
    The treatment of existing and new facades on O’Connell Street, and probably also Henry Street, needs more work.
    They’re going to have to do a lot of hard selling if they want to keep this sloping park / apartment block.

    I think we’re all getting a bit carried away here. This is a new shopping / mixed use quarter. We’re not asking this to be outstanding, it just has to be quite good. I can’t think of too many shopping streets that have real, stand out, architecture on them, certainly not Grafton Street. From the first couple of renders, it already looks like the bits that succeed the least are the bits that they’re trying to be ‘iconic’ with. The rest of it, including most of the underlying concept, looks about right.

    To my mind, you could sort this whole scheme out with a handful of well chosen planning conditions, it looks that close to me.

    #730868
    gunter
    Participant

    Obviously, notjim, ctesiphon are sensible all the time, that goes without saying and johnglas, what can you say about johnglas!

    #730869
    johnglas
    Participant

    alonso: absolutely nothing personal; I’ve got a cold so I was in fiercely prudish mould – you should hear my normal animated conversation and try to extract the text from the expletives.
    jdivision: I think you have – don’t take capitalist manoeuverings at face value. Did they have any intention of developing?
    gunter: just a teeny hint of patronising? I’ve been patronised by better people than this!

    #730870
    gunter
    Participant

    @johnglas wrote:

    I’ve got a cold
    gunter: just a teeny hint of patronising? I’ve been patronised by better people than this!

    Sorry to hear you’ve got a cold. It must be awful coming back from two week in the Mediterranean.

    #730871
    johnglas
    Participant

    If you’ve ever been to Glasgow, it is; believe me, it is.

    #730872
    ctesiphon
    Participant

    @gunter wrote:

    Obviously, notjim, ctesiphon are sensible all the time, that goes without saying

    Have we a fourth for whist?

    #730873
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    @gunter/ctesiphon wrote:

    Originally Posted by gunter
    Obviously, notjim, ctesiphon are sensible all the time, that goes without saying

    Have we a fourth for whist?

    me of course … in this instance i am both sensible & correct, sure gunter said so 😀

    c’mon weigh in there Graham & Devin 😉

    #730874
    hutton
    Participant

    @jdivision wrote:

    Posted by johnglas – the Carlton site could have been developed at any time during the boom, but wasn’t. That was not the fault of the planners, but of greedy developers.

    Really? I thought it was because the council CPOed the site two days after a bank and a joint venture partner had confirmed they were coming on board. Must have missed something there.

    + 1

    #730875
    Blisterman
    Participant

    Not too crazy about this scheme. O connell st needs development, but this is certainly not what it needs.
    While a public square as part of the scheme would be good, taking a huge chunk out of the side of O connell street is not the way to do it. A much better way to do it, would have been to have it behind the line of buildings, connected by covered shopping arcades, from Henry, Moore and O Connell St.

    I’m also not that crazy about the elevated pedestrian shopping.Every example of these I’ve been to, just hasn’t seemed to work. City shopping should all be at street level.

    #730876
    lostexpectation
    Participant

    whats in all those buildings behind the oconnell/moore/henry front storage for the shops? is there anything interesting hidden away, do the devleopers want to demolish conways yeah?

    http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0422/1208469018141.html

    imagine just having the facade of the carlton with it wide open at the bottom and then just empty space behind the tall windows above, that would be impressive kewl.

    #730877
    gunter
    Participant

    @Blisterman wrote:

    I’m also not that crazy about the elevated pedestrian shopping.Every example of these I’ve been to, just hasn’t seemed to work. City shopping should all be at street level.

    That is a good point.

    I try to avoid shops like the plague, but I’d imagine that I might still be conscious of a good example of elevated pedestrian shopping, if I’d come across one. The oldest example that comes to mind is Chester city centre, I think it’s called ‘The Butter Walk’, where apparently original Tudor merchant houses incorporate a open arcaded secondary street at first floor level, with steps down to the street every couple of houses. I was on it once and I remember it being horrible, but that could have been just that it had shops.

    The renders of the O’Connell Street scheme show the upper walkways fairly teeming with shoppers. There’s nothing here that could easily be identified as ugly little bands of teenagers hanging out like it’s DunLaoghaire Shopping Centre, but this could be artistic licence.

    It would be an interesting exercise if people with a wider knowledge of such things could post up links or pictures of any good, or bad, examples worldwide. Blisterman is right in that this element seems to be pretty central to the whole redevelopment concept, so if it’s a dead duck, it would be good to find out now!

    #730878
    urbanisto
    Participant

    A limited website has just been launched which at least answers what will happen to No 42 and the two adjoining buildings as well as another view of the Carlton

    http://www.dublincentral.ie/

    There is also further information on

    http://www.charteredland.ie

    #730879
    urbanisto
    Participant

    One thing I note from these is there are no nasty ugly Luas lines getting in the way…

    #730880
    ctesiphon
    Participant

    Inspired?

    *groan*

    #730881
    Paul Clerkin
    Keymaster

    Better Images

    #730882
    johnglas
    Participant

    What I can’t understand here is why they can’t leave the Carlton alone; they could have their pedestrian ‘streets’ on either side and use the volume of the cinema imaginatively (I’ve no idea what state the interior’s in). Facadism should be resisted; the design and cladding of the new intervention looks pedestrian (pardon the pun) and enveloping and oversailing historic buildings with plate glass is so yesterday. The ‘street’ looks busy, busy, busy (until 6pm?), but what would keep it alive would be something like a cinema (what am I saying!?). If they want a roof terrace, there’s no need to go into fantasyland as they have done and there must be a considerable acreage behind street level to do just about anything they want without going on steroids the way they propose.

    #730883
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Ok some clarity on the front elevations to O’Connell Street, for me one of the most important details of the entire project & having seen the above shot, its all over the place. The break in parpet line is completely unacceptable, the uniformity & consistency of OCS are what makes it. A discreet set back might be acceptable but this thing isn’t even set back more than a few feet & is way overscaled. I’ve no real issue with moving the carlton facade once it remains intact, but piggy backing the vague glass box on top a la crosbie’s point theatre, is taking the piss.

    Can’t see them getting away with what looks to be 2 stories over and above the line of the street, well at least I hope not. I do however like the look of the pedestrian spaces, as vague as that look is & could live with the width of the opening on to OCS, but the new builds & the way they ooze all over the existing stock on OCS is a major black mark.

    #730884
    lostexpectation
    Participant

    it comes full circle, get that out of town shopping mall feeling while in the city centre…

    #730885
    Alek Smart
    Participant

    But,But,But…..where`s the Car Park going to be.???? :confused:

    #730886
    GrahamH
    Participant

    Right.

    Firstly to deal with the humour.

    From Irish Times:

    @Mark Turpin of Dublin Central Architects wrote:

    &#8220], he believes, is that the unbroken frontage between Henry Street and Parnell Street is too long at 400m”

    The reason that Upper O’Connell Street west is as dead as a dodo is because his clients and previous owners have been sitting on their hands for the past 4, c. 7, 14 and 29 years in respect of the swath of properties that lie vacant along here – albeit largely out of their control of late – comprising no less than one third of Upper O’Connell Street west. Have a stroll along here any day and observe the enormous expanses of the derelict Carlton, the vacant site, the empty Fingal offices and the shuttered up Aer Lingus office to gain an appreciation for the real reason why Upper O’Connell Street is now nothing short of a twilight zone. The unbroken length of the street being cited as a main cause of a lack of pedestrian footfall is misguided – one need only look over to Upper O’Connell Street east to observe that the punctuations of Cathal Brugha Street and Cathedral Street have little impact on pedestrian levels. Puncturing a hole into a terrace does not necessarily a busy street make. It is clear that there are wider issues determining activity on Upper O’Connell Street, which are, as we already know, that there is nothing to draw people to the end of O’Connell Street and beyond, nor is there anything to inject vitality en route.

    That is not to say that the length of the street is not a contributory factor, nor that it would be undesirable to have a break along its rather stern march northwards – but the extent of this intervention is without question the single most important factor in its consideration. How it is articulated comes second.

    As such, the best way to appreciate any possible impact of a new street is simply to stand on O’Connell Street with the proposal in hand and observe. Any notional desktop theory takes the back seat when on location, as naturally ought to be the cause. You realise very quickly that an intervention along the lines of the width of what is proposed (it’s hard to tell exactly at present) would have little impact – even surprisingly – on the form of the O’Connell Street when approaching from the south. However once you pass the Spire and enter into the Upper street it can be truly appreciated the devastating impact that an overly wide, essentially exploded streetscape, could have on the character of the street, and must be avoided. Nonetheless a break of up to the width of the Carlton can be comfortably accommodated, and hopefully that is what is proposed. Anything more is simply overbearing.

    On the matter of moving the Carlton itself, it’s undesirable, and without knowing the details of the site could be construed as a lazy way out of avoiding having to deal with the challenge of coming up with a turn-corner solution, integrating the existing facade. We shall await…

    With regard to the delightful 1920s neo-Georgian granite faced Garda Station being ‘taken out’, there is little question that this ought and will be thrown out, inevitably on appeal. There is absolutely no reason other than trying an arm for the sake of a few extra metres of modern floorplate that this needs to be removed. It makes a pleasant and perfectly valid contribution to the streetscape, and compromises nothing architecturally of the rest of the scheme. Shunt everything back south by a plot. Such cheek!

    On the new builds, the southern corner of the new street is absolute rubbish – incoherent, gimmicky, cumbersome and thoroughly ugly. And why is what will be a single structure being expressed as two different buildings? – this is the Dr. Quirkey’s site. The replacement for Dublin Bus is even worse in its laziness and failing to acknowledge the history its context. Buildings of this scale and width on the street ever since its commercialisation have always made an architectural statement: contextual, but individual. For all its faults, Dublin Bus at least continued this tradition. The proposed structure turns this on its head: reticent, anodyne and ridiculously dull for a building of its scale and status, purely for the sake of appeasing planning. This is Dunnes all over again in red sandstone.

    The northern corner is welcomingly ambitious, but makes the opposite mistake of going overboard with its oversailing ‘veil’, as per its (emphatically) rejected Penneys further south – thought at least this site is more accepting of an independent approach. Such projections however do not have a localised impact, and must be considered in the wider context of the street. Indeed for some bizarre reason every single element of the proposed frontage to O’Connell Street features projecting canopies above ground floor level: do they expect global warming to take a new twist?

    No point on commenting on the ski slope as it’s stating the obvious: remarkably ugly, ridiculous concept, laughably close to the GPO, and will be rejected outright on appeal. It is a shame that a more elegant expression of height to the centre of the scheme was not considered. 108 apartments is surprisingly low too.

    There may be considerable merit in the new streets and squares, but as we haven’t seen them there’s no point on commenting on that front. It appears to be more ambitious that Arnotts.

    Generally the scheme is to be welcomed. It will inject vitality, buzzword 1, buzzword 2 etc etc. Upper O’Connell Street on balance could do with a break along its length. The jumbled nature of stock of this stretch (the oldest on the thoroughfare) can absorb a number of contemporary interventions with ease. However the standards of architecture from what (admittedly distant) elements we can see are simply not good enough. Usually criticisms are made of ‘the heritage line’ being too conservative and limiting: in this instance O’Connell Street is deserving of only the very best in contemporary architecture, as was consistently argued ought to be the fundamental tenet of a certain other ‘live’ application on the street. What average building stock survives on the thoroughfare has generally come about through conversion from townhouse to commercial function, and often has historical value. By contrast the finest stock, particularly along this very stretch (and much of which has sadly since vanished) came about through proud rebuilding of premises, from the National Irish Bank, to Gilbeys, to the former Pillar Picture Theatre (McDonalds) to the Carlton. This tradition ought to be continued through high quality, confident contextual interventions – not meek UK high street wallpaper that can be stripped off in 20 years time. This must be central to the planning consideration of this scheme. I look forward to seeing the meat of it to the rear as images emerge!

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