Mr Voting Machine’s Transport Plan

There is far more to the plan than mentioned. I like the new waterford to Donegal motorway, although the route is a bit uncertain at the moment.

some of what you say is true. Some of this stuff was mentioned before, that didnt make it part of any type of overall plan. The government did not commit to the metro to the airport, nor the interconnector until today, and they have added more luas lines than I was expecting ( Lucan, for instance, and Bray), and the metro goes further than expected in Clondakin-Tallaght as well as sword airport.

Good plan.

http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/7048-5.pdf

None at this level. I suspect you dont like this particular government. Judge the plan on it’s merits ( for now, and it is good) and on the implementation – about which we have to see.

On one long-standing issue in particular, what exact route is being taken for the Luas interconnector? No mention in any of the coverage today and the Dept of Transport site is as difficult to navigate as getting a direct answer out of Cullen – any other source?

Prime Time was most entertaining – Eamonn Ryan looking remarkably disgruntled.

Is it in the PDF I pointed to? I didnt think there was a interconnector for the luas, just the Dart.

@asdasd wrote:

There is far more to the plan than mentioned. I like the new waterford to Donegal motorway, although the route is a bit uncertain at the moment.

some of what you say is true. Some of this stuff was mentioned before, that didnt make it part of any type of overall plan. The government did not commit to the metro to the airport, nor the interconnector until today, and they have added more luas lines than I was expecting ( Lucan, for instance, and Bray), and the metro goes further than expected in Clondakin-Tallaght as well as sword airport.

Good plan.

http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/7048-5.pdf

Looking at the map when I clicked on the above link, it’s a pity there is no LUAS line running out to UCD. 23.000 students 2,500 staff will be commuting to that campus daily when they relocate all their buildings to the Belfield campus. Sure their campus car parks are currently acting as a Park and RIde system for people working in town. THey are all full by ten in the morning and there are 17 car parks there so there has to be something done public transport wise for UCD. And integrated ticketing… That should be done ASAP. Not in 2 years time, or five years time. For god sake it’s the year 2005, nearly 2006. I think all motorways currently in the planning pipleline should be extended to at least three lanes on either side. The Government may think we don’t need it now or in five years time but give it ten years time we’ll probably need three lanes of motorway on either side. Anyone agree with me?

Perhaps interconnector wasn’t the best term to use asdasd – rather the ‘Luas central corridor’.
It’s too vague to work out on the map – certainly it seems to arrive at the top of O’Connell Street, but how it gets there is anyone’s guess. Are we to take it that it is going the ‘traditional’ route through College Green, O’Connell Bridge etc?

Eamonn Ryan was complaining tonight that it wasn’t going down O’Connell St and on to Broadstone – it was unclear if he was referring just to Broadstone, or the whole city centre route.
Giving the media’s love affair with this element of our transport infrastructure in particular – two lines that don’t meet – I’m most surprised there wasn’t a single mention of it today, amongst anyone.

Actually it seems that the luas is going up O’Connell street from that map,( which may be wrong.) There is a interchange with the metro at the top of O’Connel street and it seems to go straight north.

Good question Graham, the map:

http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/7048-5.pdf

looks like O’Connell St, Western Way, Broadstone, and then the cutting north out of broadstone as far as liffey junction.

Not sure about all the details but what an exciting plan! DART to Maynooth! DART to Kildare! Metro to the airport! Metro and Luas for West Dublin! Luas for DIT! Metro for DCU! Interconnector! Commuter service for Athenry! Athenry to Ennis! Athenry to Tuam! Amazing stuff.

What this Transport Plan essentially does, among other things, is put the money in place to finance these infastructural projects – as well as outline further development proposals. The nature of the various projects provide ample opportunity for in-depth discussion, for-and-againsts, reasonings etc etc

It’s easy to criticise the plan – and the Government as a whole – but I for one welcome the plan and its associated financial clearance. However the challenge now is implentation. Whatever about all the great ideas therein – the fact is, the real issue is how our planning system will cater for the myriad of proposals.

Our planning system is a highly inefficient process – especially in terms of large-scale infastructural projects such as those that form part of the Transport Plan. That’s not a criticism of the individual planners therein, but a more empirical assessment of the broader system in which they work. The fact is, the money, the plan and the contracting capacity may all be in place, but it comes down to the legal clearance by planning bodies, and as we know, the track record regarding large infastructural projects in Ireland is not a glittering one.

2 years ago, the Critical Infrastructure Bill was proposed and due for ratification – but it seems as though, all this time later, it’s resting under some large paper-weight on Dick Roche’s desk. Before the Transport Plan 2005 can be made good, adjustments and provisions need to be implemented in our planning service so that projects are delivered to the people sooner rather than much later. It is only then that we can truly embrace the potential offered by the Plan.

the Dublin-centric nature of the plan will not promote balanced regional development.

I don’t agree with this at all. The plan is “Dublin-centric” in terms of rail-provision for a good reason because Dublin has the critical mass to make commuter and urban rail economically viable. Look at the great success story of regional rail – Ennis/Limerick – and look a the numbers we are talking about. The DART line in Dublin carries more in two days than travel Ennis/Limerick in a whole year as does the Luas. To benefit the same number of people as who benefit from the DART and Luas you’d have to build 360 Ennis/Limerick lines around the country. This is simply throwing money down a black hole for no discernable benefit.

We have to face the modern realities. The likes of a Mulingar to Galway rail service would have important and valuable in the old days when you were facing a day-long bumpy journey on a donkey and cart. In those days such trains were the fastest way of getting from one part of the country to another. These days a nearly all cases buses provide a faster, more frequent and cheaper service for the smaller population centers around the country.

Commuting is where the future growth for rail in Ireland is. This is where rail can offer significant advantages over rival modes (for example 20 minute DART/Luas journey versus 45 minutes on a bus on a QBC versus 1:30 in a car stuck in traffic). Sadly, for most non-commuter journeys (with a small number of exceptions) rail provides an inferior solution for getting from A-B in terms of journey times, frequency and financial cost. We should be using the best tools for the job and not waste buckets of money trying to use rail for tasks it is patenly unsuitable for in the modern age.

Ok I’m about to go off on a rant here but as for “balanced regional development”, this is just an excuse in Ireland to avoid trying to do anything world-class. Rather than have one decent proper airport in the West (personally, I’d nominate Shannon), for example, which could have the critical mass to offer decent connections and be viable as a hub we build uneconomic mickey mouse airports in every county along the western seaboard. Instead of having two or three world-class third level institutions, we have every market town demanding and getting their own third level which means we don’t even have a single University in the top 100 in Europe. Instead of ecouraging “silicon valley” type critical masses of specialized industries to form in particular localities, the IDA tries to convince companies to locate in disparate locations. The hairbrained government scheme to spread the civil service around the country into little pockets here and there is another example of this madness. Government policy should be determined by what benefits the country as a whole instead of pandering to parish pump demands which is dressed up with the piously respectable term “balanced regional development”. All the latter has done has been to retard the development of any potential counterweights to Dublin by spreading everything too thinly.

@notjim wrote:

Good question Graham, the map:

http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/7048-5.pdf

looks like O’Connell St, Western Way, Broadstone, and then the cutting north out of broadstone as far as liffey junction.

Not sure about all the details but what an exciting plan! DART to Maynooth! DART to Kildare! Metro to the airport! Metro and Luas for West Dublin! Luas for DIT! Metro for DCU! Interconnector! Commuter service for Athenry! Athenry to Ennis! Athenry to Tuam! Amazing stuff.

It’s all very exciting but about 20 years overdue.

Metro and Interconnector by 2015?! Give me a break. 2025 would be far more realistic.

I am being a bit negative though, This is a great move for Ireland, especially Dublin. I never thought I’d live the see the day. One thing that really suprised me was the large amount of investment that’s going into the tram network. 😮

Theres nothing like a launch by 4 govt ministers showing different colored lines on a map to get the media in this country wetting their lips :rolleyes: Fair enough, if it´ll be delivered – yet lets judge by deed rather than by word – and then attribute credit accordingly.

I am confused by this scheme and the sudden emphasis on public transport by this govt. I am unable to understand that if this is bona fide, why then are there currently QBCs in Clondalkin and the Merrion road without the buses to run on them? Why has this govt refused to release money under the 2000 NDP allocated specifically for the purchase of 120 buses? :confused: These are measures that could provide immediate relief – but perhaps its not as good PR as pretty lines on a map! (BTW Is the existing Heuston – Connolly line, via Phoenix Park due to be used or not, does anybody know?)

In order to convince, a plan should show thought, consistency, and vision – infrastructure should be future-proofed by not having unnecessary restrictions placed at the outset. In particular it seems odd to have a heavy rail metro link up with existing Irish Rail at 4 points, yet build the metro at 4´8´´ gauge – while Irish rail is 5´3´´ in width; if that is whats planned, it is perverse. To my eye, it also shows lack of clarity of vision to build the Metro and the missing Luas link on top of one another; is this not overkill & wasteful?

Time to regauge Harcourt Luas to 5´3´´ and have as a Dart/ metro?

What if the current Luas to Sandyford was regauged to Irish standard and run into a tunnel prior to transversing the Grand Canal city-bound? If this were so and the line is then completed to Bray, as planned – and as should have originally been done, there are 3 benefits –
1) Increased maximum capacities – Dart/ Metro/ Heavy rail rapid transit can accommodate up to 6 times more than trams can carry at peak times.
2) Far superior inter-compatibility & flexibility; suburban trains from Arklow and Wicklow could run straight into Stephens Green, and if the Metro is built 5´3´´, then onto the Airport/ Swords. This gives the 2 advantages of relieving congestion at Connolly – Tara Street, and also that international experience shows that 30% of passengers are lost when it is required that they have to change – this can be avoided.
3) Waste can be avoided. Different gauges requires more trains rather than less; as opposed to being able to economise with an optimum number, equally each gauge will require different maintenance workshops with different tools & different approaches required for the different models.

10 years is a long time in infrastructure delivery

By 2007, when elections are due, this Govt will have been in power for 10 years. Recently I was in a planning museum in Paris ( http://www.pavillon-arsenal.com/home.php ) , where it was explained how before 1900, there was very little urban rail in the city – yet by 1909, 67 kilometres of metro had been completed. Compare & contrast?

At the end of the day, to my eye the record of this govt is to promise by press release a definite move on overdue needs, while then not delivering. Euphoria in certain quarters of the media at being able to bang on about Martin E´s plan seems to be matched only by their amnesia. DTI, DTO, Strategic Rail Review and whatever-yer-having-yerself. There´ll be another consultants report, another review, a consultants report on the review, followed by a review of the consultants report on the lack of implementation of the original review. And the merry-go-round goes on and on. The only exception to this is expenditure on roads, which at present is a ratio of 4 : 1 when compared to money spent on public transport.

What irritates is that they point out whats wrong, would appear to know roughly whats needed – yet then do something else. Maybe come 2007, I´ll follow their direction – I´ll say I´ll vote Fianna Fail, I´ll mean to vote Fianna Fail, but when it comes to the ballot card somehow my X will end up somewhere else 😀

Spot the Difference
Transport21 created by non professionals.
Platform for Change created by professionals.

There is something in what you say in that Media analysis is very poor in ireland and memory seems painfully very short.

They seem happy to just run the press statements, and take comments, “it is good” ,”it is bad” , but analysis is lacking and is substituted by “balanced” comments, from vested interests in the main.

RTE last night were authoritatively stating that Dublin Airport was the only capital city airport in Europe without a rail link. Now without straining by brain I could immediately think of at least three EU other capital airports in that situation, and there are doubtless some others.

They specifically said Westerm Europe though if that makes any difference to your list dc3…

not if portugal is in western europe.

so here’s a question: will all this mean digging up stephen’s green?

Brian Cowen said Stephen’s Green station would be “a New York-style Grand Central Station”. It needs an underground metro station, an underground DARt station and a Luas terminus. A humungous hole will have to be dug.

Grand Central is an amazing place. I saw a survey of New Yorkers where they were asked where they would go in New York to meet someone if both parties only knew the date and time of the appointment but not the location. Something like 50% of them chose the information office at Grand Central Station.

Anyhow, I hope Dublin invests in a showpiece central station and not another Connolly.

used to love central station when i lived in ny; i guess the gpo is the closest we get, a beautiful building in vernacular use.

interesting question though and a bit off thread, but where would you go in dublin to meet someone if you knew the time and date but not the location. front of bewleys or front of tcd i guess.

i think the question re the green is not about the station but whether the tunnelling machine is being inserted there.

I’m not convinced with this new plan either, The Government’s perfect timing to relaunch Its annual Development plan only this time Its coming up to the elections, :rolleyes: Not perfect timing to get the Lot more to done!
A lot done more to do, oops we need to that again 😀

I’m a little disappointed in the over hyped project, the Atlantic Corridor!
Its only dual lane from Limerick to Ennis, the rest will be 2+1, even most of the Busier Cork/Limerick sections of N20
From looking at the corridor it’s more shaped of foot rather than just following the Atlantic coast
I don’t see the logic of a person living in Malin head wanting to go via Mizen head En route to Waterford, is this Economic sense, a joke I’d say. Why not Use the N24 rather than the N25, The N24 should be as much as important as the N25.
Or, It should be just an Atlantic Corridor separate from the southeast should be another and both interlinked giving the N24 more importance.
. Any Irish person that will drive this Atlantic road corridor wouldn’t drive that entire length and follow it either, even with a very bad sense of direction would not take the option of the doing the length the entire country if one were travelling Letterkenny-Waterford.

The new motorway plans isn’t exciting and surprising
Anyone with any good memory and common sense will know there is no chance in hell will the new Inter- urban motorway network be Finished by it’s given 2010 deadline, Its laughable, just ask anyone for Christ sakes. We’ve heard it over and over again dates such as 2004, 2005 2006 more all routes, this failed so >>, then back to the drawing board, out comes the new “New Development plan”, Soon after that A “new” rehash sometime last year under Seamus Brennan. Yet again When Martin Cullen became the new minister for transport seems to have changed a few things by spell checkedunder this plan, would have all motorways completed by 2007,later postponed till a more realistic 2009 and now finally 2010 under the beefed up plan 😀
and get all the south east projects going, There is no need for a dual carriageway all the way to Waterford, Its totally unnecessary, some sections of that N9 road caries only 4,000 vehicles a day! Yet since he is in power, Waterford has got more attention than Limerick and Galway routes, which carry a lot more traffic than the Waterford route,

Finally what about the Shannon Airport link, up to a few months ago was going to get a green light??
Is this now RIP???
I’m sure my children’s children’s will go on the new Atlantic coast Railway when its finally completed. I will have probably already used the new super duper fantastic trans Atlantic highway under the Ocean :rolleyes:

I’m impressed with the new plans that spiral the country looks artistic don’t you think,
Better make fun to the bits there not doing 🙂

@Frank Taylor wrote:

I saw a survey of New Yorkers where they were asked where they would go in New York to meet someone if both parties only knew the date and time of the appointment but not the location. Something like 50% of them chose the information office at Grand Central Station.

I think the date only was specified, and they chose that location at 12 midday.
Could it have been in James Surowiecki’s ‘The Wisdom of Crowds’ book?

In Dublin, it would depend for me on who I was meeting (I know that’s not the thrust of the question), but Trinity Gates, Traitor’s Gate (Grafton corner of SSG) or the tree at Nassau St Trinity entrance are all contenders.

If someone wanted to find me, there are a couple of coffee shops that are homes from home, but that’s different altogether.

The problem with this whole plan is that it is literally as good as it gets. Olivia Mitchell has some decidely dubious notions about transport and has the Heuston-Spencer Dock interconnector in her sights. If there is a change of government a “review” (a delay) is certain.

@dowlingm wrote:

The problem with this whole plan is that it is literally as good as it gets. Olivia Mitchell has some decidely dubious notions about transport and has the Heuston-Spencer Dock interconnector in her sights. If there is a change of government a “review” (a delay) is certain.

maybe this is true but surely no new goverment would be so stupid… i think the goverment (despite the scepticism over whether or not they can deliver it) realises that the transport issue is a vote winner or loser!

Airports / Western European Capitals without direct rail links.

Luxembourg (no rail), Luqa, Malta (no trains at all anywhere on Malta),
Prague (bus to metro link there, is this Western enough)

Doubtless some of the Baltic States also, plus Lisbon, already mentioned.

@notjim wrote:

i think the question re the green is not about the station but whether the tunnelling machine is being inserted there.

The RPA boss, Frank Allen, told the Dail transport committe last week that the metro tunneling machine would terminate in Stephens Green and not emerge. He even suggested that it could be turned on a few years later and pointed towards Kimmage. I guess there’ll be two of them given that it’s twin bore.

He stated that underground stations are far cheaper to build by excavation rather than being mined, so he would expect that stations like O’Connell Street would be built by surface excavation, so that no part of them was under a building.

The fact that Stephens Green will have two intersecting stacked underground lines, indicates to me that they are going to dig a huge pit. RPA has said that their platforms will be 90m long and IE want at least twice that length for interconnector platforms. Can you imagine the amount of digging and the amount of archaeological rubbish that will be unearthed? Given that the sides of the green are about 250m long, I’d expect all of Stephen’s Green to be dug up- to howls of protest.

It was Cowen who made a comparison with Grand Central and it reminds me that Grand Central has become a psychological centre point for New York.

@dave123 wrote:

I’m sure my children’s children’s will go on the new Atlantic coast Railway when its finally completed. I will have probably already used the new super duper fantastic trans Atlantic highway under the Ocean :rolleyes:

Why wait til then? By all accounts it´ll be open in 2009 – See http://www.atlantictunnel.com/ for further info. At least now we know where Martin E got his advice 😉 , and theres probably as much chance of seeing one completed as there is the other 😀

Quote:
@dowlingm wrote:

The problem with this whole plan is that it is literally as good as it gets. Olivia Mitchell has some decidely dubious notions about transport and has the Heuston-Spencer Dock interconnector in her sights. If there is a change of government a “review” (a delay) is certain.

@aj wrote:

maybe this is true but surely no new goverment would be so stupid… i think the goverment (despite the scepticism over whether or not they can deliver it) realises that the transport issue is a vote winner or loser!

No unfortunately not. Over the summer, the FG wing of the new plotical party “Finegael-and-labour” ( 😉 )brought out a survey, taken in Nth Dublin & its environs, that showed the vast majority of persons surveyed would prefer to use public transport for commuting. After an initial release & one or twp interviews, Olivia Mitchell completely changed tack & started banging on about the quality of signage on the M50 SEM. Open goal, govt with its pants down in terms of presiding over the unused Dublin – Drogheda – Navan railway, and all O.M. can do is rant about an issue of far less strategic importance. At a recent talk, Frank Mc D referred to her in terms of (roughly) “ravings of a mad Sth Dublin housewife” – an assessment that I am inclined to share.
There are talented people in “Finegael-and-labour”, such as Richard Bruton, but I am not convinced that O.M. is one of them. It is a poor reflection on that party that she was appointed to front-bench on an issue of such importance.
Sorry folks, I too wish that at least one of the major parties would have a competent pair of hands on this area 🙁

@hutton wrote:

At a recent talk, Frank Mc D referred to her in terms of (roughly) “ravings of a mad Sth Dublin housewife” – an assessment that I am inclined to share.

Frank McDonald was careful not to mention any names in connection with that characterisation. However, if that’s who you choose to see as being thus described… 😉

You might have a point – on both accounts 😉 😉

All this has a whiff of the ”Bertie Bowl” about it. I would’nt thrust that bloke Cullen after he squandered the 50 million on the unused electronic voting machines. The plan is ambitious and badly needed however.

Martin Cullen has been handed a “hospital” pass.
He won’t be able to deliver any of his aspirational plan on time or budget.
Bertie is the cleverest and most cunning of them all.

Ha Ha

The opposition are going to have a field day; Martin’s motorway to Donegal to pick up Jim whilst his licence is suspended. 10 years for a little tunnel in Dublin and a phased metro.

I think it is time to emmigrate

Riddle me this – especially any engineers out there!

If they build a hole the size of Grand Central Station under Stephen’s Green, do they (a) take the soil out at the Green and take it away by lorry, presumably up Leeson Street or (b) start tunnelling at the airport and ship all the soil from under the Green all the way up the 18km tunnel and then take it away by lorry? :confused:

Might be an idea to look hard at the terms of the Guinness bequest of St Stephens Green to the State, and what it might have said about about future usage, if anything.
Well before all this winds up in the High Court, a la Carlton site, Carrickmines etc. Amazing that there is as yet no comments much on the impact of this plan on perhaps the finest square in Ireland.

P.S. The Green park area is managed by OPW – and is in Parlon Country
– is this perhaps part of a plan to achieve decentralisation by making the St Stephens Green area a no go area?

I’ll take a couple of trucks of topsoil from the flowerbeds

won’t this reenforce the drift of the city centre to the southside? Nobody will think of O Connell street as the city centre any more but Stephen’s green. A missed opportunity to extend the city centre a bit. I suppose stephen’s green is where everybody wants to go but by having Grand Central say in Parnell Square or somewhere like that we could get more footfall into other areas in the city centre.

just a thought… i find it quite odd the way we still keep our old train carriages. the amount of times i see a dart coming with 4 new carriages and 2 old ones attached or 6 new and 2 old… why can’t they just get rid of the old ones completely and have all new trains? it seems a bit silly. if a job is going to be done it should be done right. people could say that the old ones might be needed for capacity but they should have them all new in my opinion. otherwise what’s the point? just buy enough new carriages and dump the old…. :confused:

oh, i forgot to mention… i have seen a few darts that have all new carriages. i like them.

I think we are getting carried away with this grand central station, it will be an interchange of two underground lines and a luas. O’Connell Street, similarily, will have an interchange of two luases and a metro and generally the plan is pretty even handed between the north and the south and kinder to the northside universities: dcu and dit than to the southside one, ucd. in point of fact the geographical centre and population centre of dublin is probably somewhere south of the green and everyone knows the real centre of town is college green where i think there will be a luas, metro interchange.

@Sue wrote:

Riddle me this – especially any engineers out there!

If they build a hole the size of Grand Central Station under Stephen’s Green, do they (a) take the soil out at the Green and take it away by lorry, presumably up Leeson Street or (b) start tunnelling at the airport and ship all the soil from under the Green all the way up the 18km tunnel and then take it away by lorry? :confused:

Metro stations are dug out and constructed first. Tunnelling machine is then driven through them to connect them. So the spoil must be removed by road.

I presume that the entirety of the Green wouldn’t have to be removed? Surely a pit could be dug down to the full depth, lined, and then the platforms dug out and constructed underground, ‘wide’ of the entrance shaft? The Geotechnics for this are going to be a hoot though.

As for spoil, well, if the TBMs for the metro and interconnector are going to be starting their path at (say) the airport and Inchicore, the tunnel spoil will be dragged out the end of the tunnels, leaving only the station material to be removed out of the city centre (altogether, thats a lot of material, anyone for a port extension?)

Does anyone know how deep the stations are likely to be? And which will be the lower level, the Metro or the heavy rail?

With relation to the “Old” DART carrages. They are around since 1983 and have a build life span of 40 years. I might also add that all the “Old” DART carrages are going to Germany to get completely rebuilt and refitted. The orginal seating plan will remain however. – I pefer the old DARTS they just seem more comfortable and have more seats.

I think when rail rolling stock costs in excess of 2 million euro per carrage, I would hope that they would be around for a while.

Aidan, the interconnector is lowest, at about 30m down. Then the Metro… and the Luas on top

Thanks Sue

30m means that (allowing 10m for the interconnector and the supports), the metro will only be 15-20m below the street level – I can almost smell the compo claims for structural damage.

If the interconnector isn’t due to be finished until 2015, doe this mean that the Metro can’t open till then either? They can hardly have heavy engineering works going on below functioning Metro and Luas stations, can they?

Also, won’t the location of the entrance to the Metro station determine where the Luas ‘connector’ can run? If the entire corner of Stephens Green is a 30m pit, they can hardly construct a luas line around the top of the green and down Dawson street, can they?

@Richards wrote:

With relation to the “Old” DART carrages. They are around since 1983 and have a build life span of 40 years. I might also add that all the “Old” DART carrages are going to Germany to get completely rebuilt and refitted. The orginal seating plan will remain however. – I pefer the old DARTS they just seem more comfortable and have more seats.

I think when rail rolling stock costs in excess of 2 million euro per carrage, I would hope that they would be around for a while.

the old dart carriages make a lot more noise. the newer ones seem to be nicer, quiter, they tell you where you are and so on. by the way… i am not just refering to darts. how old are the old inter city carriages? i would like to see the new inter city trains on all lines with the very old inter city trains gone. the really old inter city trains are the ones with the high backs on every seat.

I bet our effort at Grand Central will be a far cry from the real thing…..all cavity blocks, exposed girders and emulsion paint.

…and the ceiling won’t be as high as that……..10 foot max! It will be a cavernous warren.

………An even more impressive metro/underground station as Grand Central is the one in Moscow, Russia.

Moscow Metro

Does anybody know the furture of the loop line bridge after the interconnector is finished? I expect they will retain it even though it seems like a glorious opportunity to consign the scar that it is to the bosca bruscar of history!

IE ‘s current rail fleet ranges from the MK 2 carrages which orginate from between 1966 and the mid 70’s. These can been seen on the Dublin Sligo and to a lesser extent on the Dublin – Galway services. These carrages will probebly be phased out within the next 2 years.

The rolling stock which is predomantly used out of Heuston to services in Cork, Kerry, Limerick, Waterford & Westport are MK 3 Carrages (British Rail designed). These were built between 1980 and 1980 and are still very much in use. These will be kept and will either be used on the Dublin – Sligo line or will be used as spares or for running special services (such as bank holidays or All Ireland Finals etc). These are currently the fastest of the IE rolling stock and (track permitting) allowed for use of 100 mph.

The biggest change of the IE Intercity timetable will be the introduction of clock face train services. Dublin Cork will get an hourly servi ce, while Galway, Limerick & Waterford will get a 2 hourly service. (See IE web site for more). IE are moving more to rail cars or push pull sets. This will enable a quicker turnaround at each station where the service termanates. In a nutshell, IE by 2009 will have replaced 90% of their intercity carrages and will have a relatively new fleet. I only hope the irish public will treat the new carrages with respect.

The Enterprise services on the Dublin Belfast line operate the same carrages that exist on the Euro Star service. However they have not aged well (just plain dirty and grotty) considering they are younger that the Euro Star rolling stock.

All in all, it is good that rail transportation in Ireland is finally getting the investment it requires.

that is good news about 90% of it being a new fleet. i guess we will just have to wait and see. it would be nice to see as irish rail have been upgrading for years now. when a job is done in ireland it takes a long time. people are talking about the new transport plan taking 10 years but that they would like to see it done in 5. 10 years is a long way off. i do ike the new plan though. i would really like to see extra luas lines and a metro. i like new things. i wonder how long it took to build the metro system in madrid? our transport plan will take a lot longer than 10 years to build in my opinion.

@dodger wrote:

Does anybody know the furture of the loop line bridge after the interconnector is finished? I expect they will retain it even though it seems like a glorious opportunity to consign the scar that it is to the bosca bruscar of history!

Loopline bridge will be used by maynooth line trains that will pass through connolly, tara, pearse and on south along the coastal dart. So you will be able to board at Clonsilla and alight at Dun Laoghaire without changing train.
http://www.platform11.org/campaigns/extendthedart/what_is_the_drp.php

I would have thought that the governments main priority would be to electrify all railways in Ireland. They had a better rail network in Soviet Russia. Those diesel things should be scrapped. They’re old, dirty and not half as fast as an electrified railway. I’m not saying that we need TGV type trains going at 320mph, but clean and more efficiant trains would be nice.

@alpha wrote:

ew transport plan taking 10 years but that they would like to see it done in 5. 10 years is a long way off. i do ike the new plan though. i would really like to see extra luas lines and a metro. i like new things. i wonder how long it took to build the metro system in madrid? our transport plan will take a lot longer than 10 years to build in my opinion.

Yes, in any other European city, this would be delivered within 5 years without a bother. We have had no previous experience building such projects .

I foresee hundreds of legal proceedings against the T21, which will massively delay these projects.

dodger

loop line bridge will be carrying Maynooth-Greystones DARTs when T21 is complete (sometime in 2040 after each government change “reviews” it and “re-plans” it) – interconnector will be carrying Balbriggan-Hazelhatch DART.

I rather sadly have to agree-with-mr-Seerski.
It probably has more to do with our Catholic upbringing than any Planning or Governance issues.
We have been inured with the belief that its the Primacy of the Individual that counts above all else……Individual Belief,Individual Faith and the rights of the Individual to exist at whatever level THEY wish irrespective of the effects this Individiality has on the collective lives co-existing with them on this little Island.
This for example allows one single Individual to board a Bus,hoist a bag upon the dashboard, and begin a slow and laborious search and rescue procedure for their BusFare whilst remaining TOTALLY oblivious to the bedraggled,soaked and strangely silent queue of OTHER people standing in the pissing cold rain with THEIR Busfare already counted out…The search can be a time consuming one,oft accompanied by muttered grumbles about how long “I” have been waiting for the Bus etc etc.
I have witnessed in other European Cities how the other passengers will simply apply the “Greater Good” principle and brush the Rooter aside therefore asserting their right to avail of faster public transport journeys by having their fare ready….However this will NOT happen here and the poor ol Plain People of Ireland simply stand in line behind the Terminally Unprepared one raising their eyes to heaven secure in the catholic knowledge that this is merely part of their Purgatory on Earth for which they will be richly recompensed in the afterlife……
In the meantime lets hear the assembled choir of the Archiseekers get to their feet for a rousing rendition of the Rolling Stones tune……..”You can`t always Get what you Want”……ah one,ah two,ah three…….. :p

“……….Individual Belief,Individual Faith and the rights of the Individual to exist at whatever level THEY wish irrespective of the effects this Individiality has on the collective lives co-existing with them on this little Island………”

That sounds more like Protestantism to me!

I say it will happen, if we want it to. If it doesn’t, we systematically kick every Fianna Failer and PD out of government, then out of every county council, town council, and two-bit local quango in Ireland, permanently. Then we do the same to the next crowd until we get someone to do the job properly.

I’m afraid if we retreat into the usual self-defeating cynicism on this one, we’re giving the Govt the opportunity to come back in a couple of years time and say: ‘It was aspirational. Sure ye said so yourselves…’.

well said AndrewP, this we are the worst people in the world gets so tiresome.

i wonder will people be concerned about cracks appearing in their homes and business when they start to dig out the tunnels for the metro? i remember hearing a saying once… “people in ireland who own land also own anything under it right down to the core of the earth”. this rule does not apply in all countries though because in some countries there is always a gap to allow for tunnels and so on. how do they get out of that one here so? i don’t know whether it’s true or not.

Ho Ho Ho……and barrel of rhum….!!!
May I take this opportunity to humbly recommend a “Cracking Good Read” to go alongside Mssrs McDonald and Nix`s weighty tome..?
Its not strictly about Dublin,nor about Architecture yet it DOES manage to encompass an understanding of and fondness for that very topic….
My Lords,Ladies and Gentlemen I give you……..

“THE BUS WE LOVED”
By Travis Elborough.
Published in London by Granta.

All I can say is try to accquire a copy and have a read of it…….if only to doff your hat at the memory of those who actually had a feeling for the principles of good design and the vision to make it happen….. 😮

alpha, i amn’t sure this is an important point, in countries where you don’t own the land under your house, you still get compensation if tunnelling puts cracks in your walls and conversely, the bit of the underground you own that the tunnel goes through isn’t actually worth very much.

I feel that the emphasis put on the CPO’s of sub strata is a little wide of the mark.

Taking the interconnector it will go underground somewhere west of Inchicore engineering works travel directly under CIE propertyuntil it reaches the Guinness holding and will be at a considerable depth before it reaches any of the smaller holdings to be acquired.

At those types of depth there is likely to be about 4 days of vibration disturbance when the bore machine is directly underneath a property. The compensation amounts payable will be extremely small except those to large holdings such as Guinness or say the Stephens Green Shopping centre. There will be no account taken of the surface values as sub-strata has no locational advantage that translates into a financial value.

If a tunnel is bored under curtilage alone the payments will be in the order of 625-1000 euro if it hits a return payments will be in the order of 3000 euro rising to 5000-7500 for travelling under the main body of the structure.

I imagine that like the Port Tunnel the professional fees and costs of holding the enquiry will exceed the compensation payable. It is interesting that little or no structural damage was recorded on the port tunnel route and the few claims actually recorded related to boring at a depth that will not be present in this rail project.

The Port Tunnel is looking more like a fiasco every day with leaks and insufficient roof concrete – if DCC have to pay another 400m euro as the contractors want (despite a design/build contract!) it will seriously damage the interconnector’s chances.

Has anybody heard of the outcome of the investigations into the somewhat fortunate Break-In at the site offices in Whitehall where a stolen JCB was apparently employed to demolish some portakabins n stuff…
No big deal cept that in the process some documentation of “Importance to the Councils rebuttal of the consortium`s claims” miraculously disappeared…..These Northside gougers have a well developed sense of whats valuable…!!! 🙂 🙂 🙂

Looks to me like a decent enough thread to add into the planning section of the forum Paul. What do you think? Would any of the posters mind, any opinions? Might be nice to get a couple of transportation threads rubbing together in a sub-area of the Irish planning section. Any merit in an idea like that? I mean, since getting around by whatever means of transport, seems to be a sore point for many people now. And heck, we live in one of the most expensive places on the planet – which normally means you get something above the average for your money – except in our case that is. I can already see the Irish planning section, beginning to lose a sense of its own identity. It would be a good idea, in my personal opinion to tie it up better right now, from the point of view of its own future development. A Transport section, a conservation section, a sustainable design section – couple of sub-headings like that may not go amiss – and serve to keep a few good threads, taking different ways to look at the same thing – together, and make a kind of synergy between different ways to look at some things. Like transport for instance.

Just a thought.

Also, as it is the new year I decided to bring this up: A lot of people who find themselves in Irish media at the moment, seem to have appointed themselves as ‘experts’ on the built environment. I am thinking in particular of a few people from the RIAI side, and while they add a lot to the debate. They also make some quite outlandish claims on behalf of every Irish person that ever lived. Like, one in particular that struck me as taking too many priveleges: “The Irish were spoiled by poverty”. I mean, it is a very convenient re-writing of history for a certain group of individuals who are big and powerful within the RIAI. They talk about the Christian brothers ‘writing the history’, but Architecture isn’t far behind the clerical figure heads, in recent times. When you listen to them in the media.

Brian O’ Hanlon.

Bits of a nice piece in Irish Times article, last April by Sheila O’Flanagan.

The man and I decided to do the retail experience last weekend. [break] So we made the trip out to Dundrum Town Centre (which, of course, is not actually the town centre at all but just the much vaunted shopping centre) on the basis that this was where the retail pulse now existed and it should be able to fulfil all our shopping needs. We did it by public transport, choosing bus and Luas to get us there. At the Luas station we had the option of buying an integrated bus and Luas ticket but the bus driver could only sell us a single bus ticket. I know the integrated ticket thing is supposed to happen soon but why can the Luas do it already and not the bus?

After the bus and Luas trip, the man and I were falling apart with hunger and so we checked out the eating emporia. Unfortunately – because there are plenty of food outlets – we chose the one where they were making sandwiches to order and the time from queuing to receiving was 25 minutes. [break] The 160 cm fitted sheets were as elusive at Dundrum as they’ve been everywhere else in the city and so we backtracked to St Stephen’s Green, called into a few more shops in a somewhat haphazard and very uninspired way (I bought shoes though – somehow I always end up buying shoes) and then completed our global experience by nipping in to Salamander in Andrew Street for a bottle of red wine and some almost authentic tapas. The 123 (without a doubt one of the best bus services in Ireland) back to Marino got us within striking distance of home and then we collapsed in front of the telly.

Did anybody go onto the http://www.transport21.ie/map.html website. It seems its only has 2 pages one the home page and the other one the map and thats it. You cant click on any of the links if you do it will lead to either 1 the homepage or 2 the map. There doesnt seem to be anyting else on this site. Do they not want the public to get information on it?

I got this from another website and since this discussion took place on the 20-21st of June the overall http://www.transport21.ie website has been taken down; this is not a good omen

Hardly surprising really when one considers great chunks of the NDP remain unfulfilled…….Still no sign of the extra Buses promised to Bus Atha Cliath.

Mr Cullen now has so many pieces of leglislation to “Bring to Cabinet” that he will need a messenger boys bike….Perhaps he should have chosen Bloomsday to load it all up and pedal up to Kildare St….
Anyone know how to spell Muppet ?? 😡

After a few days reading about Mr Transport Plan’s voting machines, how nice to be able to get back to his current task.:) This is from today’s Irish Times.

@The Irish Times wrote:

Metro line stop for city plaza urged by RPA
John Downes

The proposed new metro line linking Dublin city centre with the airport should have a stop located in the main plaza of the “underused” Department of Education buildings in Marlborough Street, according to a submission to the Railway Procurement Agency’s (RPA) public consultation process from city centre traders.
The Dublin City Business Association (DCBA) believes that if located under the plaza, the north city centre metro station could accommodate large numbers of pedestrians exiting and entering the metro.
The Department of Education is due to move to Mullingar within three years as part of the Government’s planned decentralisation process.
In its submission supporting the proposed central route for the metro, business association chief executive Tom Coffey says that with a footfall of 60 million per year already, O’Connell Street would become too congested if a metro stop were to be located there.
The association’s members include Arnotts, Boots, Dublin Bus, Marks and Spencer and Roches Stores, employing more than 25,000 people in the city centre.
In previous correspondence with the association, the RPA has expressed concerns about space constraints in the Marlborough Street plaza.
If approved, it may necessitate the acquisition of extra buildings and demolition work, it also believes.
However, this is something which the DCBA disputes. It believes a metro station at the main plaza might drive development and economic activity east of O’Connell Street, and create a “joined-up” economic area from Smithfield to the IFSC.
On the south side of the city, the business association wishes to see a stop at St Stephen’s Green, which is in line with the intentions of the RPA.
“This [Marlborough Street] location also has the advantage that it is within a two to five-minute walk of O’Connell Street, the quays, and the Luas IFSC, and hence in the heart of the central business district transport hub,” Mr Coffey said.
His comments are contained in the association’s submission to the second round of public consultation on the metro north route, sent to the RPA last week and seen by The Irish Times.
“It is also between O’Connell Street and the Docklands, which is an area with significant potential for development of new business and customer growth.”
The association also claimed that it is the “norm” in European cities for the main street to be reserved for pedestrians, buses, bicycles and shoppers’ cars.
The adjacent streets are then used for light rail and metro, it added.
© The Irish Times

@Seamus O’G wrote:

After a few days reading about Mr Transport Plan’s voting machines, how nice to be able to get back to his current task.:) This is from today’s Irish Times.

While I think the “Marlborough Plaza” is a wonderful idea. I think iot will do wonder for the area. 🙂

However in regards to the light metro system stop, this is a very poor idea. And just when you thought the RPA started to understand the term ‘intergrated’ when they proposed the Light metro to have a stop at Druncondra Train station.

I love to see somebody comming from the Red Luas line (lets say from Tallaght) heading to the airport, wheeling their luggage over 350meters in cold, wet & windy winter evenings, and for them to turn around and say, “Oh I am so happy that they but the light metro stop so far from the Luas stop. I really do enjoy getting cold and wet.” :rolleyes:

But then again, this isnt really suprising. The current Airport Stop proposal requires you to walk 750 meters from the Great Souther hotel to the front door to the airport terminal. They must have forgotten that our winter weather is cold wet and windy. 😡

As for city centre businness mixing with public transport planning, well just go back to the time when city centre business but pressure on the then minister for transport Mary O’Rourke, to not join the Red and Green Luas line. Great Idea that was. :rolleyes:

@Irish Independent, Today wrote:

Metro to save millions by banning tunnelling payouts

HOUSEHOLDERS and businesses affected by work on Dublin’s new underground Metro won’t get a cent in compensation for extensive tunnelling under their property.

A new law kickstarted yesterday by the Government put a nil value on land below 10 metres.

The timing could not have been better as the exact route of the Metro – from Dublin city centre to Swords via Dublin Airport – is due to be announced by Transport Minister Martin Cullen as early as tomorrow. Environment Minister Dick Roche said the end of underground compensation will potentially save “both time and money in the Metro project”.

It means the millions in compensation paid out to householders and businesses as a result of the Dublin Port tunnel underground tunnelling will not be repeated during the Metro project.

It has been confirmed that the new Metro line will run underground from St Stephen’s Green through the Grafton Street area, past the gates of Trinity College and down Westmoreland Street to O’Connell Bridge. From there it will continue underground to the revamped Mater Hospital, and underground stations at Drumcondra, Griffith Avenue and DCU.

From DCU, the agency’s preferred route is overground to two stations at Ballymun, Metro Park and on to the airport, where it will run underground again.

From the airport, it will travel overground to Fosterstown, Swords Estuary and finally the terminus in Lissenhall. One of the city-centre station’s entrances is to be located on the northside, possibly at Bachelors Walk, the other on the southside of the river. The Railway Procurement Agency believes that underground mining will reduce traffic restrictions during the underground works at the station. These are set to start in 2009.

Meanwhile, rogue builders with a history of unfinished or badly left estates will be refused planning permissions under new laws approved yesterday in a new planning and development act.

The minister kickstarted section 9 of the Act which will enable planning authorities to withhold planning permissions from rogue developers on the basis of past history of non-compliance and not completing housing estates.

“Any such abuse of our planning code cannot be tolerated,” said Mr Roche yesterday.

“In the past, some rogue developers have been getting away with not doing their jobs.”

Until now, planning authorities have been required to prove an applicant’s history of non-compliance with permissions or conditions of permissions before the High Court before they could act.

Burden

The new measure reverses the burden of proof and should make it easier for local authorities to tackle bad developers, insisted the minister.

Other important provisions approved yesterday include new powers for An Bord Pleanala to deal with appeals made primarily, or solely, with the intention of extracting money from the applicant.

Mr Roche said occasional spurious and groundless appeals were an unfortunate feature of our system.

“They pervert our democratic processes and divert time and resources away from dealing with authentic and justified appeals,” he said.

Treacy Hogan

I remember reading that there was some chancer in Booterstown who was claiming compensation for damage to his house caused by the port tunnel works.:D

It also looks like they may be sticking a station on the metro under the actual river. Does anyone know of a precedent for this elsewhere?

I think some of the station ‘St Michel-Notre Dame’ over here in Paris, runs under the Seine.

Westminster station is also under the Thames i think.

@TLM wrote:

Westminster station is also under the Thames i think.

Doesn’t seem to be quite under the river, though it is close, according to this link:
http://www.raeng.org.uk/news/publications/ingenia/issue9/Mair.pdf

Thanks also Constat – can’t find anything on St. Michel-Notre Dame, apart from it being the location of a terrorist attack in 1995.:eek:

@Transport21 website wrote:

CULLEN WELCOMES OFFICIAL OPENING OF DUBLIN PORT TUNNEL
20th December 2006
More >>

CULLEN OFFICIALLY OPENS KINSALEBEG REALIGNMENT ROAD PROJECT
8th December 2006
More >>

CULLEN TURNS SOD ON N7 NENAGH / LIMERICK 38KMS ROAD PROJECT
7th December 2006
More >>

CULLEN OFFICIALLY OPENS FIRST SECTION OF THE N6 KINNEGAD TO KILBEGGAN ROAD PROJECT
5th December 2006

You’ve got to ask, if you look at the details of the press releases on the front page of the website for “Transport21”, at http://www.transport21.ie, whether the whole thing is about transport or whether it’s about Martin Cullen.:D

yeh funnily enough i was on that site the other day and came to the exact same conclusion. He’s not a Minister for Transport, He’s a publicity hungry egotistical incompetent fckwit whose achievements can be collated on a postage stamp and whose mistakes would require another internet to discuss:

Cullen forgets the Bray Metro in T21
Cullen omits Tallaght-City Metro
Cullen takes almost a year to approve the Kildare Route Project
Cullen takes 6 months to read a 30 page report on the DTA
Cullen then forgets the DTA for a while
Cullen farts about with BX
Cullen gives Dublin Bus 20 buses in 5 years
Cullen allows property developers to determine Transport Strategy
Cullen likes roads
Cullen opens roads
Cullen gets re-elected