Mr Voting Machine’s Transport Plan
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On first reading , it seems like a rehash of all previous plans and commitments, with any new plans without real concrete commitments.
These are just some of the proposals and commitments which were already made previously and again appear in the new plan:
The Luas to the Point – the was announced years ago.
The Luas extension to Cherrywood – ditto.
The Luas extension to City West – ditto.
The joining of the Sandyford and Tallaght lines in the city centre – this would have happened if the original plans were not interfered with by Mary O’Rourke a few years ago.
The rail line re-opening to Dunboyne – this was approved by the transport department in the past year.
The cork suburban line to Midleton – this was approved by Seumus Brennan over 12 months ago.
The metro to the airpot – this was approved for a few years at least.
The Western rail corridor – this was partially accepted as a viable project and was in principle agreed.
The Dublin inter-connector – this was proposed by CIE a year ago.
The 157 new carriages for CIE were announced over a year ago.All of the above were agreed in hazy commitments to over the past five years – these are again contained in the new transport plan for the country.
Worryingly, plans for other projects are more general aspirations than firm commitments:
The railway to Navan – it is not a firm commitment to reopen the line.
The Western rail corridor – there is no set date for re-opening.I am actually very dissapointed by the plan – the Dublin-centric nature of the plan will not promote balanced regional development. The farce of all major lines only meeting at Dublin will not change with this plan. A simple means of connecting all major lines would involve the re-opening of the Athlone-Mullingar railway line which was closed as recently as 1985. This woul enable/make viable train journeys from Cork to Sligo, Mullingar to Galway, Limerick to Maynooth etc yet such a simple re-opening is absent from the plan. Instead, grand gestures, such as the West Metro are proposed (why in low-density west dublin is there a need for an underground system between other suburbs?) yet a simple means of intergrating the branch and mainland lines such as the Athlone/Mullingar track are ignored.
I am afraid to say I am not convinced of the plan – 10 years allows nonsense, delays and objections to fester, while the problems become more exascerbated.
If the government were really serious, they would have attempted to complete this plan in a shorter time-scale, say five years, pour enourmous resources into the plan and have a set deadline for all projects to be completed.
By the way, I will be in my forties if the plan is fully completed. IF! I cant imagine waiting till my forties to witness integrated ticketing, a metro to the airport and a luas to Spencer Dock.
History should teach us one thing – if you want something done properly, keep Martin Cullen away from it!!!!!!!!!!
I AM NOT CONVINCED. 🙁
There is far more to the plan than mentioned. I like the new waterford to Donegal motorway, although the route is a bit uncertain at the moment.
some of what you say is true. Some of this stuff was mentioned before, that didnt make it part of any type of overall plan. The government did not commit to the metro to the airport, nor the interconnector until today, and they have added more luas lines than I was expecting ( Lucan, for instance, and Bray), and the metro goes further than expected in Clondakin-Tallaght as well as sword airport.
Good plan.
And may I ask how many transport plans have been made in the past five years…..probably 10…..20….maybe even 50 plans have been published. Perhaps they should open up a library for them all…
None at this level. I suspect you dont like this particular government. Judge the plan on it’s merits ( for now, and it is good) and on the implementation – about which we have to see.
On one long-standing issue in particular, what exact route is being taken for the Luas interconnector? No mention in any of the coverage today and the Dept of Transport site is as difficult to navigate as getting a direct answer out of Cullen – any other source?
Prime Time was most entertaining – Eamonn Ryan looking remarkably disgruntled.
Is it in the PDF I pointed to? I didnt think there was a interconnector for the luas, just the Dart.
@asdasd wrote:
There is far more to the plan than mentioned. I like the new waterford to Donegal motorway, although the route is a bit uncertain at the moment.
some of what you say is true. Some of this stuff was mentioned before, that didnt make it part of any type of overall plan. The government did not commit to the metro to the airport, nor the interconnector until today, and they have added more luas lines than I was expecting ( Lucan, for instance, and Bray), and the metro goes further than expected in Clondakin-Tallaght as well as sword airport.
Good plan.
Looking at the map when I clicked on the above link, it’s a pity there is no LUAS line running out to UCD. 23.000 students 2,500 staff will be commuting to that campus daily when they relocate all their buildings to the Belfield campus. Sure their campus car parks are currently acting as a Park and RIde system for people working in town. THey are all full by ten in the morning and there are 17 car parks there so there has to be something done public transport wise for UCD. And integrated ticketing… That should be done ASAP. Not in 2 years time, or five years time. For god sake it’s the year 2005, nearly 2006. I think all motorways currently in the planning pipleline should be extended to at least three lanes on either side. The Government may think we don’t need it now or in five years time but give it ten years time we’ll probably need three lanes of motorway on either side. Anyone agree with me?
Perhaps interconnector wasn’t the best term to use asdasd – rather the ‘Luas central corridor’.
It’s too vague to work out on the map – certainly it seems to arrive at the top of O’Connell Street, but how it gets there is anyone’s guess. Are we to take it that it is going the ‘traditional’ route through College Green, O’Connell Bridge etc?Eamonn Ryan was complaining tonight that it wasn’t going down O’Connell St and on to Broadstone – it was unclear if he was referring just to Broadstone, or the whole city centre route.
Giving the media’s love affair with this element of our transport infrastructure in particular – two lines that don’t meet – I’m most surprised there wasn’t a single mention of it today, amongst anyone.Actually it seems that the luas is going up O’Connell street from that map,( which may be wrong.) There is a interchange with the metro at the top of O’Connel street and it seems to go straight north.
Good question Graham, the map:
http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/7048-5.pdf
looks like O’Connell St, Western Way, Broadstone, and then the cutting north out of broadstone as far as liffey junction.
Not sure about all the details but what an exciting plan! DART to Maynooth! DART to Kildare! Metro to the airport! Metro and Luas for West Dublin! Luas for DIT! Metro for DCU! Interconnector! Commuter service for Athenry! Athenry to Ennis! Athenry to Tuam! Amazing stuff.
What this Transport Plan essentially does, among other things, is put the money in place to finance these infastructural projects – as well as outline further development proposals. The nature of the various projects provide ample opportunity for in-depth discussion, for-and-againsts, reasonings etc etc
It’s easy to criticise the plan – and the Government as a whole – but I for one welcome the plan and its associated financial clearance. However the challenge now is implentation. Whatever about all the great ideas therein – the fact is, the real issue is how our planning system will cater for the myriad of proposals.
Our planning system is a highly inefficient process – especially in terms of large-scale infastructural projects such as those that form part of the Transport Plan. That’s not a criticism of the individual planners therein, but a more empirical assessment of the broader system in which they work. The fact is, the money, the plan and the contracting capacity may all be in place, but it comes down to the legal clearance by planning bodies, and as we know, the track record regarding large infastructural projects in Ireland is not a glittering one.
2 years ago, the Critical Infrastructure Bill was proposed and due for ratification – but it seems as though, all this time later, it’s resting under some large paper-weight on Dick Roche’s desk. Before the Transport Plan 2005 can be made good, adjustments and provisions need to be implemented in our planning service so that projects are delivered to the people sooner rather than much later. It is only then that we can truly embrace the potential offered by the Plan.
the Dublin-centric nature of the plan will not promote balanced regional development.
I don’t agree with this at all. The plan is “Dublin-centric” in terms of rail-provision for a good reason because Dublin has the critical mass to make commuter and urban rail economically viable. Look at the great success story of regional rail – Ennis/Limerick – and look a the numbers we are talking about. The DART line in Dublin carries more in two days than travel Ennis/Limerick in a whole year as does the Luas. To benefit the same number of people as who benefit from the DART and Luas you’d have to build 360 Ennis/Limerick lines around the country. This is simply throwing money down a black hole for no discernable benefit.
We have to face the modern realities. The likes of a Mulingar to Galway rail service would have important and valuable in the old days when you were facing a day-long bumpy journey on a donkey and cart. In those days such trains were the fastest way of getting from one part of the country to another. These days a nearly all cases buses provide a faster, more frequent and cheaper service for the smaller population centers around the country.
Commuting is where the future growth for rail in Ireland is. This is where rail can offer significant advantages over rival modes (for example 20 minute DART/Luas journey versus 45 minutes on a bus on a QBC versus 1:30 in a car stuck in traffic). Sadly, for most non-commuter journeys (with a small number of exceptions) rail provides an inferior solution for getting from A-B in terms of journey times, frequency and financial cost. We should be using the best tools for the job and not waste buckets of money trying to use rail for tasks it is patenly unsuitable for in the modern age.
Ok I’m about to go off on a rant here but as for “balanced regional development”, this is just an excuse in Ireland to avoid trying to do anything world-class. Rather than have one decent proper airport in the West (personally, I’d nominate Shannon), for example, which could have the critical mass to offer decent connections and be viable as a hub we build uneconomic mickey mouse airports in every county along the western seaboard. Instead of having two or three world-class third level institutions, we have every market town demanding and getting their own third level which means we don’t even have a single University in the top 100 in Europe. Instead of ecouraging “silicon valley” type critical masses of specialized industries to form in particular localities, the IDA tries to convince companies to locate in disparate locations. The hairbrained government scheme to spread the civil service around the country into little pockets here and there is another example of this madness. Government policy should be determined by what benefits the country as a whole instead of pandering to parish pump demands which is dressed up with the piously respectable term “balanced regional development”. All the latter has done has been to retard the development of any potential counterweights to Dublin by spreading everything too thinly.
@notjim wrote:
Good question Graham, the map:
http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/7048-5.pdf
looks like O’Connell St, Western Way, Broadstone, and then the cutting north out of broadstone as far as liffey junction.
Not sure about all the details but what an exciting plan! DART to Maynooth! DART to Kildare! Metro to the airport! Metro and Luas for West Dublin! Luas for DIT! Metro for DCU! Interconnector! Commuter service for Athenry! Athenry to Ennis! Athenry to Tuam! Amazing stuff.
It’s all very exciting but about 20 years overdue.
Metro and Interconnector by 2015?! Give me a break. 2025 would be far more realistic.
I am being a bit negative though, This is a great move for Ireland, especially Dublin. I never thought I’d live the see the day. One thing that really suprised me was the large amount of investment that’s going into the tram network. 😮
Theres nothing like a launch by 4 govt ministers showing different colored lines on a map to get the media in this country wetting their lips :rolleyes: Fair enough, if it´ll be delivered – yet lets judge by deed rather than by word – and then attribute credit accordingly.
I am confused by this scheme and the sudden emphasis on public transport by this govt. I am unable to understand that if this is bona fide, why then are there currently QBCs in Clondalkin and the Merrion road without the buses to run on them? Why has this govt refused to release money under the 2000 NDP allocated specifically for the purchase of 120 buses? :confused: These are measures that could provide immediate relief – but perhaps its not as good PR as pretty lines on a map! (BTW Is the existing Heuston – Connolly line, via Phoenix Park due to be used or not, does anybody know?)
In order to convince, a plan should show thought, consistency, and vision – infrastructure should be future-proofed by not having unnecessary restrictions placed at the outset. In particular it seems odd to have a heavy rail metro link up with existing Irish Rail at 4 points, yet build the metro at 4´8´´ gauge – while Irish rail is 5´3´´ in width; if that is whats planned, it is perverse. To my eye, it also shows lack of clarity of vision to build the Metro and the missing Luas link on top of one another; is this not overkill & wasteful?
Time to regauge Harcourt Luas to 5´3´´ and have as a Dart/ metro?
What if the current Luas to Sandyford was regauged to Irish standard and run into a tunnel prior to transversing the Grand Canal city-bound? If this were so and the line is then completed to Bray, as planned – and as should have originally been done, there are 3 benefits –
1) Increased maximum capacities – Dart/ Metro/ Heavy rail rapid transit can accommodate up to 6 times more than trams can carry at peak times.
2) Far superior inter-compatibility & flexibility; suburban trains from Arklow and Wicklow could run straight into Stephens Green, and if the Metro is built 5´3´´, then onto the Airport/ Swords. This gives the 2 advantages of relieving congestion at Connolly – Tara Street, and also that international experience shows that 30% of passengers are lost when it is required that they have to change – this can be avoided.
3) Waste can be avoided. Different gauges requires more trains rather than less; as opposed to being able to economise with an optimum number, equally each gauge will require different maintenance workshops with different tools & different approaches required for the different models.10 years is a long time in infrastructure delivery
By 2007, when elections are due, this Govt will have been in power for 10 years. Recently I was in a planning museum in Paris ( http://www.pavillon-arsenal.com/home.php ) , where it was explained how before 1900, there was very little urban rail in the city – yet by 1909, 67 kilometres of metro had been completed. Compare & contrast?
At the end of the day, to my eye the record of this govt is to promise by press release a definite move on overdue needs, while then not delivering. Euphoria in certain quarters of the media at being able to bang on about Martin E´s plan seems to be matched only by their amnesia. DTI, DTO, Strategic Rail Review and whatever-yer-having-yerself. There´ll be another consultants report, another review, a consultants report on the review, followed by a review of the consultants report on the lack of implementation of the original review. And the merry-go-round goes on and on. The only exception to this is expenditure on roads, which at present is a ratio of 4 : 1 when compared to money spent on public transport.
What irritates is that they point out whats wrong, would appear to know roughly whats needed – yet then do something else. Maybe come 2007, I´ll follow their direction – I´ll say I´ll vote Fianna Fail, I´ll mean to vote Fianna Fail, but when it comes to the ballot card somehow my X will end up somewhere else 😀
Spot the Difference
Transport21 created by non professionals.
Platform for Change created by professionals.There is something in what you say in that Media analysis is very poor in ireland and memory seems painfully very short.
They seem happy to just run the press statements, and take comments, “it is good” ,”it is bad” , but analysis is lacking and is substituted by “balanced” comments, from vested interests in the main.
RTE last night were authoritatively stating that Dublin Airport was the only capital city airport in Europe without a rail link. Now without straining by brain I could immediately think of at least three EU other capital airports in that situation, and there are doubtless some others.
not if portugal is in western europe.
so here’s a question: will all this mean digging up stephen’s green?
Brian Cowen said Stephen’s Green station would be “a New York-style Grand Central Station”. It needs an underground metro station, an underground DARt station and a Luas terminus. A humungous hole will have to be dug.
Grand Central is an amazing place. I saw a survey of New Yorkers where they were asked where they would go in New York to meet someone if both parties only knew the date and time of the appointment but not the location. Something like 50% of them chose the information office at Grand Central Station.
Anyhow, I hope Dublin invests in a showpiece central station and not another Connolly.
used to love central station when i lived in ny; i guess the gpo is the closest we get, a beautiful building in vernacular use.
interesting question though and a bit off thread, but where would you go in dublin to meet someone if you knew the time and date but not the location. front of bewleys or front of tcd i guess.
i think the question re the green is not about the station but whether the tunnelling machine is being inserted there.
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