Motorways in Ireland
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I can’t see to much of a diffence other than a new bridge for Luas and a straight bridge for N7 between the image above and the one in August 2005 the price was still €800m at this time and there is no way that a couple of minor changes like this have added €200m or anything like it.
Possibly €10m or €15m
https://archiseek.com/content/showpost.php?p=38172&postcount=21
I presume the Luas line is being completely rerouted. Isn’t it great we have so much money now we can afford to rip up tramlines that are only a few years old? Also, love the fantasy world in these photomontages where red cow/M50 traffic is only a few brightly-coloured cars and trucks at regular 50-metre intervals. The sun is beaming, so it can’t be Christmas Day…
@AndrewP wrote:
I presume the Luas line is being completely rerouted. Isn’t it great we have so much money now we can afford to rip up tramlines that are only a few years old? Also, love the fantasy world in these photomontages where red cow/M50 traffic is only a few brightly-coloured cars and trucks at regular 50-metre intervals. The sun is beaming, so it can’t be Christmas Day…
Like the N4 its a full sphagetti junction so it should solve most of the probelms there.
@darkman wrote:
Like the N4 its a full sphagetti junction so it should solve most of the probelms there.
The costs cited above relate to a multiply grade seperated junction.
The price has accelerated €200M beyond the grade seperated scheme.
Do you think for one minute thatthere won’t be congestion where all the sliproads merge; that is the nature of motorways. Driving speeds will be lower here no matter how you merge the traffic.
I would also like to clarify how successful ‘spagetti’ (junction) is today; average queing times are 30 minutes between 6am & 8pm and that is after the parallel M6 toll opened to relieve the pressure.
Yet another example of a ‘final Solution’
€200m for what?
PVC King wrote:The costs cited above relate to a multiply grade seperated junction.The price has accelerated €200M beyond the grade seperated scheme.
Do you think for one minute thatthere won’t be congestion where all the sliproads merge]
The new N7,N4,N3 junctions will be fully grade seperated and are actually an excellent design. What the engineers have succesfully done is come up with a comprehensive grade seperated sphagetti junction which does not require monsterous flyovers. There are no lights and given the roundabout disappears I think that its a good solution and it will work. The new M1 interchange is more old shool in terms of using two flyovers and two free flow slips.
BTW what they did with the Northwest corner of the N7 interchange on that photomontage is a cracking solution to what was going to be a big problem there.
BTW the new proposal is far bigger then the origional third tier and luas stupidity of the first.
Also note the very clever use of the ex-luas brigde as a sling shot back toward the city.
Whatever about the N7, the N4 interchange should be superb:
Are you going to address the issues of specific cost or simply repeat yourself?
There are very very limited differences between Andrew Duffy’s 2005 images and the image above. Bearing in mind that the entire Monastary Road bridge costs €12m and is a whopping 50m tall the €200m overspend is digraceful and further evidence that the NRA are still entirely hapless at financial accounting.
Martin Cullen strikes again
@PVC King wrote:
Are you going to address the issues of specific cost or simply repeat yourself?
There are very very limited differences between Andrew Duffy’s 2005 images and the image above. Bearing in mind that the entire Monastary Road bridge costs €12m and is a whopping 50m tall the €200m overspend is digraceful and further evidence that the NRA are still entirely hapless at financial accounting.
Martin Cullen strikes again
The point im trying to get across to you is that the new design is completely different to the old. Unrecognisable and is much bigger. Its as simple as that really.
I will post the old image later.
@PVC King wrote:
I can’t see to much of a diffence other than a new bridge for Luas and a straight bridge for N7 between the image above and the one in August 2005 the price was still €800m.
https://archiseek.com/content/showpost.php?p=38172&postcount=21I’ll save you the trouble; there is very little difference between the proposals other than the treatment of the N7 which if the three lanes of the roundabout were available would freeflow as access from the N7 to the M50 was already fully grade seperated.
Simple solution concrete partitions c 3ft high used in road works for dividing traffic flows; same effect €200m cheaper unless you acknowledge that a 25% overun has been delivered by Cullen and the changes costing €10-15m are as stated above are actually only necessary in a civils wet dream
PVC King wrote:I’ll save you the trouble]Some of it is down to inflation. Most is because the junctions are being altered. You obviously fail to see just how much more complex the new proposal is to the one you have posted. It is completely different. All you have to do is look at individual segments of it notably the Southwest corner, the Northwest corner and the Northeast corner slip road – which instead of going over, goes uder the N7 Carriageway.
Thanks for acknowledging that the image I posted is the new proposal. As this dates from August 2005 when the price was listed at €200m less than the current cost.
I have never argued against grade separation of the major flows i.e. Getting all flows from the N7 south onto and off both directions of the M50 this is required. But levelling the mad cow to acheive this is not required as the other slip roads will render the mad cow enirely sane.
The issue here is how a project with a total life of 4.5 years has gone up in price by 25% in less than 2 years.
This is blatent mis-managment of scarce resources and bear in mind that all of these projects have a 10 year payback with interest.
@PVC King wrote:
Thanks for acknowledging that the image I posted is the new proposal. As this dates from August 2005 when the price was listed at €200m less than the current cost.
I have never argued against grade separation of the major flows i.e. Getting all flows from the N7 south onto and off both directions of the M50 this is required. But levelling the mad cow to acheive this is not required as the other slip roads will render the mad cow enirely sane.
The issue here is how a project with a total life of 4.5 years has gone up in price by 25% in less than 2 years.
This is blatent mis-managment of scarce resources and bear in mind that all of these projects have a 10 year payback with interest.
Thanks for acknowledging that the image I posted is the new proposal.
– huh? Thats the old proposal. A stupid design tbh. We are not exactly streching the National budget atm. There is ample room for further increase in cost to get the upgrade right or else – as has already been said – we will be back revisiting this in a few years. Im happy to see the money spent if it means a freeflowing M50 – which im very confident it will. Im very happy with the new interchange design. It is an excellent and intelligent design (something which is rare in Ireland unfortunatley).
BTW should also add in the proposal you posted there are 4 new bridges and retention of 2. In the new proposal there are 8 new bridges and retention of 2.
As I said above a civil engineers wet dream. The key flows are M50 N/S to N7 South and vice versa as well as N7 North to M50 South which are all grade segregated in the original proposal these represent 80% plus of the changes from the M50 to N7. Take 80% of the cross traffic out and you no longer have a traffic problem.
That 25% of the overall project cost which includes adding two extra lanes to a 40kms operational motorway to accomodate less than 20% of traffic using three junctions is akin to pouring cash down the sink.
I also don’t believe that that 2 new free flows I.e. N7 southbound to M50 northbound and M50 Northbound to N7 Northbound would at 3 junctions cost €200m.
Just Cullen up to his usual financial blundering.
PVC you are way off the mark. A lot of detail is hidden in the old fluffy render, just because they look similar doesn’t mean they are.
There was no free flow at all for M50 North heading to N7 City or N7 Newlands Cross, one of the major flows you mention. There wasn’t even free flow for N7 heading out of the city, with 2 sets of lights remaining in its path to facilitate luas & M50 N merges.
Luas will now travel under the n7 to follow a less clumsy alignment, with the m50 N to City lane travelling under luas, allowing removal of n7 outbound lights.
I doubt the cost increase refers solely to the N7 interchange. there will in fact be a 4th merge lane in each direction from ballymount to N4 and now this is being extended on to Blanch / N3.
I don’t know who compiled the original estimate or on what basis.
I do know that to run with the original proposal would have been crazy. There is no point re-visiting this down the raod, get it right now.Cost of everything & value of nothing comes to mind.
I concede that there was no freeflow from M50 north to N7 north however very little through traffic turns this way due to the superior N81 route to City Centre.
Furthermore N7 north is no longer the strategic route it once was and encouraging additional traffic down this route is in direct contravention of the Kilmainham local area plan the key objective which is to calm traffic at this village. This area is further on a three ton weight limit from Davitt Road a very fine surface carpark everyday in its own right.
The key route at this junction is M50 north to N7 south which were correctly given priority in the original plan. Furthermore the city bound N7 to M50 south was completely grade segregated. Therefor there was no situation where a right turn onto the mad cow was required other than the Luas which runs on a 5 minute frequency.
I think for once you are being dimby on this and I stress for once; this gold plated junction is a prime example of the over engineered nature of this project whilst rail investment is ignored.
Disgraceful waste of public funds
ok i concede a vested interest 😉 , i sit almost daily on the m50N slip to head right towards the city.
Several traffic management reports have cited the proximity of ballymount to the n7 interchange as a key flaw in the original design of the m50. Despite what you say, vast numbers shuffle in to the exit lane after ballymount to access city or n7 south, traffic obviously clogs at the lights, entire exit lane becomes jammed, additional traffic wishing to exit here stick on the indicator & sit on the inside m50 lane with no where to go, forcing everyone else in to the outside lane. This situation would persist under the original plan.
The N81 just does not have sufficient capacity, most heading from the kildare commuter belt & indeed from limerick, cork, waterford stay on the n7 to head in to the city via long mile, the 4 lanes inbound & outbound are constantly clogged at rush hour.
Again contrary to what you say M50 North to N7 south did not have priority in the original, in fact almost no change was envisaged with lights still necessary to cross luas etc. This had to be tackled so as exiting traffic would not impact on through m50 traffic.
I contend that more money would be wasted had the original plan been implemented & the nra forced to revisit & finish the job in 10 years time.
This is the busiest junction in the state, full free flow as is happening at the N4 & N3 is entirely justified here.
Luas also benefits, knocking up to 3 minutes off its journey time.
In previous arguments with your good self, the merits of putting luas through red cow were at issue, i argued in favour solely in anticipation of the reconfigured junction so luas would not have to encounter or impinge on traffic.If you look closely at the drawing you can see that the Luas is actually segregated with the grey line to the south of the N7. At the time people were laughing at Breanans ineptitude of allowing Luas onto the roundabout in the first instance and the original plan involved the Luas being put on stilts. The RPA being so impressed with the NRA design that they decided to trump it with a uIbend shaped stilt arrangement around the vodafone building at central park.
The Ballymount situation is a problem but will no doubt be releived by the third lane to keep the M50 freely flowing. Facilitating one junction use of the M50 cannot be contemplated under any circumstances. If people from Kingswood or Cookstown want to access the Naas Road they can use Ballymount and the Walkinstown roundabout. Spending an extra €200m to allow commuters to have perfect access to the city ring for one junction is a criminal waste of public funds.
I am surprised at your position in the context of children being educated in 30 year old prefabs and the absence of the interconnector.
This is €200m and rising not the €12m to plug in central clondalkin via Monastery Road.
PVC King wrote:If you look closely at the drawing you can see that the Luas is actually segregated with the grey line to the south of the N7. At the time people were laughing at Breanans ineptitude of allowing Luas onto the roundabout in the first instance and the original plan involved the Luas being put on stilts. The RPA being so impressed with the NRA design that they decided to trump it with a uIbend shaped stilt arrangement around the vodafone building at central park.The Ballymount situation is a problem but will no doubt be releived by the third lane to keep the M50 freely flowing. Facilitating one junction use of the M50 cannot be contemplated under any circumstances. If people from Kingswood or Cookstown want to access the Naas Road they can use Ballymount and the Walkinstown roundabout. Spending an extra €]
I think your a bit confused. The 1 bn is for the entire length of M50 from the M1 to Sandyford for 4 lanes each way and enhanced junctions. The N7 interchange is not costing anywhere near 200m euro.
BTW the Luas is not segregated on the previous plan. It crosses not only the N7 median but also two slip roads!
thats actually a pedestrian bridge, i enquired directly at the time. luas was to cross the junction exactly as it is now … the greyed out bore looking render gives the false impression of it being segregated, just artistic license.
I’m not for a second suggesting that free flow for M50 North traffic should be done to suit the locals …
This is the primary exit for anyone living in the south suburbs taking n7 to the south & south west.
Not tackling this now, will cost more later. Sure its expensive, but the design errors have long since been made & need to be resolved. The monetary price pales in to the background when set against the cost of this congestion to the wider economy.Absolutely agreed that the interconnector should be under construction at this stage & its the first thing i’ll be saying to any election candidate that comes to my door.
Its not a question of money, just political will & internal issues between government & IE.
The 1.8bn surplus for the first 3 months of this year would have covered the basic costs of interconnector construction.Luas should be segregated but this would not cost anymore than €10-15m. The M50 to N7 will under the original plan only merge with N7 traffic heading south at the end of the roundabout and critically will no longer merge with N7 heading north M50 or M50 South to N7 South traffic which necessitated four way division of the roundabout pre upgrade.
This siuation being replicated accross 3 junctions to accomodate the smallest traffic flows is a waste of public funds. The only solution that is justified is to have traffic lights that discourage such movements. If you had to wait 5 minutes to go from M50 to the Naas road citybound would you still do it?
That would endure that more or less 95% of the traffic coming off here would be going south giving an effectively free flowing merge 54 minutes in each hour.The messy merge will always be the M50 south to N7 and that is allowing for grade seperation.
Darkman read the thread I have already stated that fact; although if the cost has gone up 25% in 19 months the overall cost including toll buy out might top €2bn when they decide that the N81, Dundrum, Sandyford, N2, Ikea and M1 require grade seperation as well.
Engineers should be forced to study some psychology, altering behaviour works pouring concrete patches. Whatever you spend on the M50 the City routes went beyond capacity 7 years ago.
The surplus is a current surplus when capital spending is taken into account there will be a €2-3bn overall deficet this year. Capital being defined as replacing police cars and buses.
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